Matrix Games Forums

I voted: "I prefer upgradable aircraft with the limitations in the first post", but I am open to other possibilities. [:)]

ORIGINAL: Culiacan Mexico

ORIGINAL: BoerWar

Situation: In October of 1942, fighting in New Guinea is getting intense and my pilots are suffering flying the ‘Nate’ aircraft, so I want to upgrade them to Tojo aircraft in my pool.

Flaw: Maybe I can or maybe I can’t. The game fixes which unit can get Tojo aircraft regardless of the strategic or tactical situation. I can commit ships and land forces where I need them based on how the game plays out, yet I am unable to commit Tojos to the Sentai I feel can best use them.

Eliminate research and fix production at historic levels and this problem/flaw still exists. Why the 244th Sentai got Tony/Tojo while the 1st Sentai didn’t was based on a number of variables that happened during the war, but these variables will not be the same in every game.

If you wish to eliminate research eliminate it.
If you wish to fix production to historical levels fix it.
But let me decide, based on the military situation at the time, where to commit my aircraft.

Sometimes Generals insist on using outdated materials because it is what they know(ie. Polish Cavalry charging German Tanks). I for one like a little bureaucratic resistance in a wargame. I'm not opposed to some license for changing tactics and materials, but there needs to be limitations. The owner of the Nate production company probably has some powerful friends who won't appreciate you ditching his aircraft. You did sign a contract after all.[;)]

First, in October of 1942 Nakajimi is producing the Tojo.
Second, we are taking about historical production rates.
Third, Nakajima is producing both aircraft and the engines used in each aircraft.
Fourth, the Nate in October of 1942 was considered by the Japanese at that time in need of replacement.
Fifth, airgroups were being upgrade at that time with Tojo aircraft.

So why can’t I choose to upgrade the 1st Sentai instead of the 244th?

[:)]

I'll step up to the plate. Look, we have production ability for the Japanese player, but it does not model every aspect, like production realities such as poor materiel and workmanship etc. It also allows you to "somehow" speed up the aircraft availability dates. Something has to exist which keeps the game from becoming a RTS and that is the dead end upgrade paths. It was not possible for Japan to have significantly changed her industrial reality.

While I realise this does not make too much sense to some (why allow the Jap player to produce but not use?) but why not assume the extra aircraft in the pools represents the "extra" cost it required to manufacture these aircraft? If ya don't like this, build older models as Japan had to.

Can anyone imagine if the Allies could manipulate production?[X(]

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag
Taking developer time away from global improvements when it could be spent improving the game for everyone needs to be thought about carefully ... looks like about 44% of the folks either don't want it or want to have it where it doesn't mess with their games.

Actually, this is a fair argument if the developers wish to make it… and I would accept this without complaint. They haven’t stated this yet.

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag
What makes YOU any better then THEM? They paid the same money you did.

Everyone has the right to suggest/hope for an improvement they would like to see… this is after all just a forum.

ORIGINAL: BoerWar
First, let me say again I'm not opposed to such changes, but they should be limited and such changes should take time to implement. Once a new aircraft is available it takes time to "sell" the military at large that it is truly a better product. It typically takes some sort of "disaster" to convince people that it is time to move on. Maybe they could build something into the game that would allow a unit to decide to upgrade after a period of time has passed since development of a new aircraft. If units begin to experience serious losses in the old aircraft perhaps the timetable could be shortened.

That said I love the game the way it is and don't need these changes to make me happy.

I have no problem with limitations, but do feel that the current situation is a bit to restrictive.

ORIGINAL: Drongo

ORIGINAL: Culiacan Mexico
A member of the "Japanese Aircraft Upgrade Group"

I'm still waiting for the first of you guys to come out with a sig banner with "Japanese Upgrade Fanboy" written across an image of a Ki-84.

[:D]

CM - So why can’t I choose to upgrade the 1st Sentai instead of the 244th?

ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker
I'll step up to the plate.
Look, we have production ability for the Japanese player, but it does not model every aspect, like production realities such as poor materiel and workmanship etc. It also allows you to "somehow" speed up the aircraft availability dates. Something has to exist which keeps the game from becoming a RTS and that is the dead end upgrade paths. It was not possible for Japan to have significantly changed her industrial reality.

While I realise this does not make too much sense to some (why allow the Jap player to produce but not use?) but why not assume the extra aircraft in the pools represents the "extra" cost it required to manufacture these aircraft? If ya don't like this, build older models as Japan had to.

Can anyone imagine if the Allies could manipulate production?[X(]

First, comparing WitP that has more flexibility in upgrade paths with RTS is hardly in the spirit of honest discussion.

Nakajima was building these aircraft for the Army: Ki-27, Ki-43, and Ki-44.

You stated “production realities such as poor materiel and workmanship”. Could you expand on how this relates to these aircraft? What physical limitations was there that limited the tooling up of different factories? Were the major reasons for delay in fielding the Ki-43 and Ki-44 technical development and not manufacturing/materials?

My understanding is the Ki-43 and Ki-44 was in development at roughly the same time and production levels had more to do with policy than anything else: there were no physical reasons that the Ki-44 couldn’t have been produced in a moderately larger quantity.

ORIGINAL: Black Cat

Joel


Screwing around with changing the current upgrade path and the entire historical reality that WITP is now should NOT be based on the " Demands " of 8 guys who are making 50 posts each on wanting it.

That`s not demand, but a few lobbying a lot. Just as many think it`s fine as is but only post once and move on with their lives and gaming.


Changing that feature will F*** the game up Big Time.

For one, the historical reality ends as soon as the player and even the AI starts to make decisions in the game. Players can stop the Shinano, Musashi and Yamato and accellerate the other CVs, thus getting completely different navys than historically.

For two, it doesn't matter whether it is a request by one, eight or thousand players. Just as you say it is eight players lobbying their demand again and again, it is just the same with those that speak against their request again and again. Denying a request shouldn't be based on eight players/Betas/Fanboys/whatever just because they repeat their mantras like 'historical reality' either. And I would ask both sides to avoid and imply that they speak for the big silent crowd out there - let's just assume they don't know about this discussion and split them 50/50 until somebody makes a valid survey...
Instead the decision shall be based on the actual content of the request and it will be up to Matrix/2by3 to validate the request. It is up to us to provide pros and cons to the discussion and for those supporting the cause, probably make some suggestions how they would like it to be (and there are a lot of such suggestions burried in the other thread). In the end, we all have to put our faith into Matrix/2By3 to come up with an answer, one way or the other, for whatever reason (feasability, risk)...

And for three, you should be more confident that the developers could come up with a solution that does not break the game but probably even bring it to a new level of excitment for you, that you just can't imagine by now...


Edit: Now this is what you get when you post about something a while back and not reading everything until the end... So, there is a poll now to get a better idea of what is asked for...

ORIGINAL: Culiacan Mexico

CM - So why can’t I choose to upgrade the 1st Sentai instead of the 244th?

ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker
I'll step up to the plate.
Look, we have production ability for the Japanese player, but it does not model every aspect, like production realities such as poor materiel and workmanship etc. It also allows you to "somehow" speed up the aircraft availability dates. Something has to exist which keeps the game from becoming a RTS and that is the dead end upgrade paths. It was not possible for Japan to have significantly changed her industrial reality.

While I realise this does not make too much sense to some (why allow the Jap player to produce but not use?) but why not assume the extra aircraft in the pools represents the "extra" cost it required to manufacture these aircraft? If ya don't like this, build older models as Japan had to.

Can anyone imagine if the Allies could manipulate production?[X(]

First, comparing WitP that has more flexibility in upgrade paths with RTS is hardly in the spirit of honest discussion.

Nakajima was building these aircraft for the Army: Ki-27, Ki-43, and Ki-44.

You stated “production realities such as poor materiel and workmanship”. Could you expand on how this relates to these aircraft? What physical limitations was there that limited the tooling up of different factories? Were the major reasons for delay in fielding the Ki-43 and Ki-44 technical development and not manufacturing/materials?

My understanding is the Ki-43 and Ki-44 was in development at roughly the same time and production levels had more to do with policy than anything else: there were no physical reasons that the Ki-44 couldn’t have been produced in a moderately larger quantity.

In WITP, there is no way to model low grade steel and other material used for Japanese a/c airframes and power plants later in the war...you simply get the plane according to the specs in the database. I'm no expert on Japanese aircraft, or aircraft in general, but there has been much written regarding these production difficulties and failings. To simply ignore them by not having some form of deployment restriction would not do the historical aspect of the sim much justice.

ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker
I'll step up to the plate. Look, we have production ability for the Japanese player, but it does not model every aspect, like production realities such as poor materiel and workmanship etc. It also allows you to "somehow" speed up the aircraft availability dates. Something has to exist which keeps the game from becoming a RTS and that is the dead end upgrade paths. It was not possible for Japan to have significantly changed her industrial reality.

While I realise this does not make too much sense to some (why allow the Jap player to produce but not use?) but why not assume the extra aircraft in the pools represents the "extra" cost it required to manufacture these aircraft? If ya don't like this, build older models as Japan had to.

Can anyone imagine if the Allies could manipulate production?[X(]

Ron: Good answer, but you don't get my vote. You might as well take production right out of the game, if the player can't deploy what he has - the system as it stands doesn't reward a good player at all, it simply hinders him.

If you can't actually model the problems that the Japanese had with increasing/changing the fighter production they had, you'd simply be better off with reinforcement tables. Sadly, this would remove much of the interest, and would require changes in other areas to make the SRA the strategic necessity that it was.

I therefore submit that the best improvement would be to improve the production model as well as allowing freer upgrades, but that the simplest would be to allow up/downgrades, within service and roles, as the command (player) sees fit under the circumstances that then prevail, as a toggle-able option at the start of the game. This would preserve the game in it's current form for those who like it that way, while satisfying the others who are requesting change.

Steve.

ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker
In WITP, there is no way to model low grade steel and other material used for Japanese a/c airframes and power plants later in the war...you simply get the plane according to the specs in the database. I'm no expert on Japanese aircraft, or aircraft in general, but there has been much written regarding these production difficulties and failings. To simply ignore them by not having some form of deployment restriction would not do the historical aspect of the sim much justice.

Ignore? Haven’t I stated eliminate research and give historical production levels… just allow me to choose which group gets the aircraft?

With regards to ‘historical sim’: if you play as the Allied player do you follow the same strategy as they did historically? Most don’t. In fact the average player’s actions in the game are so non-historical in nature as to eliminate any ‘historic sim’ argument. As someone said,’ This is a Pacific War sand box’.

If the reason upgrade paths were fixed is to eliminate the entire Japanese Army Air Force from flying Ki-44 by October of 1942… ok. I understand why it was done and agree with the intent… just not with how it was done and the consequences. If the Developers feel that the Japanese only had seven Tojo groups historically and want to limit them to no more, then allow me to pick which Nate groups that upgrade to this type of aircraft.

Limit it to the number of groups that upgraded historically, but allow me to select which groups upgrade based on pilot quality, and both the tactical and strategic situation.

If some people see this as RTS or wanting F-18s… then I have to question there true intent in posting.

ORIGINAL: Lemurs!
Get over yourselves... you are wasting our time and our brain cells with your moronic spew.

"Our time"???

You sure as hell ain't speaking for me, and you have a lot to learn about manners.

I've read a heck of a lot more useful information on this game from those you choose to attack. If your hotheaded comments chase them away, you will be reducing *MY* enjoyment of the game, and impacting *MY* understanding of how things work. Note I don't speak for anyone other than myself - and FWIW my opinion is just as valuable as yours.

Frankly I'm shocked that a post like yours is allowed to stand after repeated warnings. If I were a moderator, you'd be gone, no poll required. [:-]

-CJ

ORIGINAL: Black Cat
Screwing around with changing the current upgrade path and the entire historical reality that WITP is now should NOT be based on the " Demands " of 8 guys who are making 50 posts each on wanting it.

That`s not demand, but a few lobbying a lot. Just as many think it`s fine as is but only post once and move on with their lives and gaming.

@Marc Schwanebeck:

I am pretty serious when I say I want my money back and I am very angered that I have bought this flawed (in my eyes) product.

You have tricked me into paying 99$ for a game, which doesnt hold what you promise in advertisement- this is also called a SCAM.

From the WITP homepage (I made the important part in bolt, so Mr. "Thumbs up" can find it too

# WitP covers the entire Pacific Theater of WWII from Dec 7th 1941 until June 30th 1946.
# Huge game map - 148 X 148 hexes with each hex representing 60 nautical miles.
# The armed forces of every major nation are represented.
# The Japanese control their production.
# Oil and Resources added to the game for production.
# Complete player control of aircraft upgrades.
# Course and Speed – Course and speed is now provided with spotting reports.
# Divide Units – land and air units can be divided into sub units and recombined as needed.
# Table of Equipment - An option has been added that allows the player to view the TOE for the selected ground combat unit.


And no- I am not a new user- I just dont find my login anymore (Kensai)

Since it dont look like to take either the players serious who demant a feature which you advertise nor to live up to the promises of this game, I hope you will find a way to give me my money back.

If not, I will be hard pressed to call the credit card company and get my money back from there.

Hi, OK round and round we go.....The group upgrade path is also used by the AI. The AI is designed to play more historicaly then a human (with the ability to sometimes pull a fast one) The upgrade paths are often a product of both history and where a group is deployed and what HQ it belongs to.

Now really I have no problem with allowing the Japanese player (and the Allied because the shoe on the Japanese foot is not longer then the American) To select what aircraft his groups is flying. What he is building or any other issue.

Now I used the game as designed and early on I went and looked to see what group upgraded to what aircraft and before I began moving units I used this to decide what unit would go where. I accepted the upgrade paths because thats what the game had.
(I pity the women some of these guys know who were not born exactly perfect)
After I understood what future demands the IJA Airforce was going to make on aircraft production I went to my factories and made sure I would be able to meet them.

Then while making my Operational plans for Phase 1 I made the effort to have certain groups moving where the aircraft they upgraded to would be required and other groups moved according to what they would have. I planned ahead. It appears to me there are some players who resent being forced to plan operations. In a operational level game this appears to me to be oxymoronic.

Please don't keep saying the Japanese don't get the benifit of their production system. Of course they do. The game continues. And if they would just wait to actually see the process occur they would realize they are influenceing THEIR military forces. However their production will never produce a force to overwhelm the Western Alliance and China.
It is during Phase 1 Operations that Japan decides the future course of the war and this is done with unupgraded lightly reinforced often understrength units.

New Airgroups require aircraft in the pool. The pilots come free and trained but there must be aircraft in the pool or the group will never arrive on map.

Just in reinforcements (not group upgrades) The Japanese production will have to provide for
6xGeorge Daitai 294 aircraft
6xFrank Sentai 216 aircraft
7xTony Sentai 252 aircraft
5xTojo Sentai 210 aircraft

Then if you wish to have trained pilots for these groups you will need to assign at least one of these groups as replacements and when it returns on map with untrained pilots have enough aircraft to reform it. Then still more will be required in pool to provide replacements from the pilot pool. (The IJA pool should still contain at least 100 pilots when phase 2 begins.)

ORIGINAL: Nusskuchen

@Marc Schwanebeck:

I am pretty serious when I say I want my money back and I am very angered that I have bought this flawed (in my eyes) product.

You have tricked me into paying 99$ for a game, which doesnt hold what you promise in advertisement- this is also called a SCAM.

From the WITP homepage (I made the important part in bolt, so Mr. "Thumbs up" can find it too

# WitP covers the entire Pacific Theater of WWII from Dec 7th 1941 until June 30th 1946.
# Huge game map - 148 X 148 hexes with each hex representing 60 nautical miles.
# The armed forces of every major nation are represented.
# The Japanese control their production.
# Oil and Resources added to the game for production.
# Complete player control of aircraft upgrades.
# Course and Speed – Course and speed is now provided with spotting reports.
# Divide Units – land and air units can be divided into sub units and recombined as needed.
# Table of Equipment - An option has been added that allows the player to view the TOE for the selected ground combat unit.


And no- I am not a new user- I just dont find my login anymore (Kensai)

Since it dont look like to take either the players serious who demant a feature which you advertise nor to live up to the promises of this game, I hope you will find a way to give me my money back.

If not, I will be hard pressed to call the credit card company and get my money back from there.

Yeow [X(] I think someone could make a case for the fact that no group will upgrade unless you say so as your having complete control of airgroup upgrades.
In the USA we have complete control of where we drive our cars. But we have to obey the speed limit and we have to drive on the right side of the road.
Complete control of airgroups to some seems tomean they can assign any aircraft they like whenever they like. Complete control to the designers and others means nothing occurs without your approval. Was this fact overlooked in AAR before release?

Well,

if youre used to play GG titles then youre also used to free upgrading within some limitations (usually aircraft types and nations). But a fixed upgrade path is not something I would call "Complete player control of aircraft upgrades". It is not complete, in fact you have only the option to upgrade to a fixed successor- which is about as useful as a third thumb. The best would have been they would have never implemented R&D at all- so the people who "whine" around so much and annoy the superhistoricplayers to no end woudlnt have bought the product in the first place.

And to use your example of the car: this is like advertising one with great features and 500hp with "complete control" but forget to say you can actually drive this thing only forward since it has neither a steering wheel nor a reverse gear and with complete control is meant you can actually push the accelerator and fart into the seat.

Then while making my Operational plans for Phase 1 I made the effort to have certain groups moving where the aircraft they upgraded to would be required and other groups moved according to what they would have. I planned ahead. It appears to me there are some players who resent being forced to plan operations. In a operational level game this appears to me to be oxymoronic.

This isnt historic either and youre using 20/20 hindsight to use only the "best" airgroups.

Maybe we could screw the "IJA->IJA AC, IJN->IJN" crowd (nine people now :rolleyes:) even further, after all we could prevent your exploit by assigning random upgrades at gamestart which are only visible after you have enough of this aircraft in the pool. Only to prevent unhistoric playing.

Edit: instead of "complete player control of air..." should be written "forced and restricted upgradepathes which will be in place regardless of your losses and production". Sounds better and more honest to me.

Was this for me?

ORIGINAL: Mogami
After I understood what future demands the IJA Airforce was going to make on aircraft production I went to my factories and made sure I would be able to meet them. Then while making my Operational plans for Phase 1 I made the effort to have certain groups moving where the aircraft they upgraded to would be required and other groups moved according to what they would have. I planned ahead. It appears to me there are some players who resent being forced to plan operations. In a operational level game this appears to me to be oxymoronic.

I found out early that detailed planning is essential to this game. There are just so many things moving on the map that if you don’t have a grasps, which I didn’t the first couple of weeks… you are lost. Like I said, I have listed groups and how they upgrade Tony/Tojo and pre-plan where it will be stationed (Burma and New Guinea). I feel this is a clumsy way to do it, but with the game as designed… I feel it is a must. It works, but I would mind a easier/better system.

ORIGINAL: Mogami
Please don't keep saying the Japanese don't get the benifit of their production system. Of course they do. The game continues. And if they would just wait to actually see the process occur they would realize they are influenceing THEIR military forces. However their production will never produce a force to overwhelm the Western Alliance and China.

I don’t recall saying the Japanese don’t get benefits from production on this thread. I do believe Japan’s production capabilities during WW2 were moderate, and I belief I am being generous. I don’t believe ‘production’ can alter the course of the Allied onslaught, and think ‘Frank’ aircraft or not… pilot quality is going to be the major concern in 1944/45. I could easily be wrong as I haven’t played out that far, but if the game follows history to any extent… the Japanese air force is going to be hurting come 1944 no matter what you produce.

I admit I have never played out that far and could easily be wrong. My babblings can be ignored.

ORIGINAL: Mogami
...
Now I used the game as designed and early on I went and looked to see what group upgraded to what aircraft and before I began moving units I used this to decide what unit would go where. I accepted the upgrade paths because thats what the game had.
...

As a professional in verification I can tell you that there is a prime error here - in verification (and nothing else does a Beta-Tester do) your first task is to question every fact a designer presents you. Admittedly, WitP is neither ABS nor Airbag, but what sense does your kind of testing do - instead of playing according to the game mechanics wouldn't it make much more sense to test it in a straight-forward and common sense way. And every time you run in a problem with the common sense approach the designer should come up with a good explanation to keep his approach, as, rest assured, the future customer might want to play it with some common sense as well. And if the designer has a good reason to do it his way, this approach should be well documented in the manual...

I doubt that Japan already knew which airgroup would fly which type of plane in 1943/44. They neither knew, where they would face the strongest opposition and where they might need what type of fighter in whatever amount. They just had fighter groups assigned to HQs, going to the theatres their HQ went to. And when new planes arrived, the High Command sent them where they were needed most urgently (hopefully they did; as player I definatly would want to do so).
Your approach to send airgroups according to their upgrade path to different locations is actually as much hindsight operation as a high research on late-war airplanes is. [:-]

ORIGINAL: WhoCares
Your approach to send airgroups according to their upgrade path to different locations is actually as much hindsight operation as a high research on late-war airplanes is. [:-]

Agreed, but with the game as designed... that is what you need to do.