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RE: RHSCVO and RHSRAO Minor Version 2.51 Released to testers
Posted: Sun Jun 04, 2006 10:49 pm
by CobraAus
V 2.59.5.1 posted on link page medium upgrade for CVO and RAO
Cobra Aus
RE: RHSCVO and RHSRAO Medium Version 2.54 Released to testers
Posted: Mon Jun 05, 2006 12:35 am
by el cid again
ORIGINAL: Jo van der Pluym
ORIGINAL: el cid again
I failed to note the date - December 1945. I have NO units at such a date - and am about to remove this unit altogether - UNLESS it appears sooner. RHS allows NO units after Sept 30 1945 - and recommends the game end on 1 Nov 1945 if no atom bombs are used (and 1 Sep 1945 if they are used). The scenario permits players to ignore these recommendations as late as 1 Jan 1946 - if for any reason they want an end of year report or automatic victory calculation. But we do not give slots to units appearing in the last quarter of 1945 or in 1946. Was this unit really a Dec 1945 unit?
The unit is formed on 17 May 1943. Commander is Colonel de Bruyne.
They started training october 1943 in Camp Lejeune later also Camp Davis. Januari 1945 Battleready and waiting for orders by Norfolk.
According Dutch warplans against Japan was estimated that the Unit must be in the NEI medio 1945. But they must wait on shipping.
OK = very good - this means they are available at Colon Panama from 15 January 1945 - (I provide free shipping that far) - and the Allied player either ignores them or ships them from there. They are in the game - and get the Bazooka too! - but it must be a special weapon of some kind - since the Dutch Marine Squad cannot have it - perhaps we give them US Marine Squads? The Dutch Marine Squad is used in 1941 - so it is stuck with historical weapons of that period. Which brings us back to the question - what is THAT squad's anti-armor weapon? The Slothern?
RE: RHSCVO and RHSRAO Medium Version 2.54 Released to testers
Posted: Mon Jun 05, 2006 6:37 am
by akdreemer
ORIGINAL: el cid again
The game OBs probably grossly overstate the number of 2 pounders available - and it correctly states the US Army lacked even its "standard" AT weapons in the Philippines.
Where did you get this information? First off the US Army did not use 2 pdrs. It used a 37mm ATG. There are photographs of pre-war Phillipine Army troops training with it ans it was standard equipment way back in 1938. (The War Against Japan- Pictorial record.. Army Green Book, Page 26) It looks like a "real" 37mm ATG to me.
RE: RHSCVO and RHSRAO Medium Version 2.54 Released to testers
Posted: Mon Jun 05, 2006 7:05 am
by el cid again
ORIGINAL: AlaskanWarrior
ORIGINAL: el cid again
The game OBs probably grossly overstate the number of 2 pounders available - and it correctly states the US Army lacked even its "standard" AT weapons in the Philippines.
Where did you get this information? First off the US Army did not use 2 pdrs. It used a 37mm ATG. There are photographs of pre-war Phillipine Army troops training with it ans it was standard equipment way back in 1938. (The War Against Japan- Pictorial record.. Army Green Book, Page 26) It looks like a "real" 37mm ATG to me.
I don't think I said the US Army used 2 pounders. But the ALLIES did, at least in theory, and in WITP too. Except they didn't very often have them.
The US Army was using a new 57mm by the time the war began - it had ended development in 1941 - a lengthened version of the British 6 pounder. Otherwise it nominally used the 37mm you mention - which is NOT in the game. Instead an apparently fictional 47mm ATG is! [OK - here is a test: what country BESIDES Japan had a 47mm ATG? If none, why are there TWO 47mm ATGs? 280 and 422.] I replaced this gun with the 37mm M3 ATG. Still figuring out who actually had it in theater? But I bet those guys in Hawaii had some for one. And I think I have an inventory for the Philippines - I bet there are some there too. Need to check.
RE: RHSCVO and RHSRAO Medium Version 2.54 Released to testers
Posted: Mon Jun 05, 2006 7:16 am
by akdreemer
ORIGINAL: el cid again
ORIGINAL: AlaskanWarrior
ORIGINAL: el cid again
The game OBs probably grossly overstate the number of 2 pounders available - and it correctly states the US Army lacked even its "standard" AT weapons in the Philippines.
Where did you get this information? First off the US Army did not use 2 pdrs. It used a 37mm ATG. There are photographs of pre-war Phillipine Army troops training with it ans it was standard equipment way back in 1938. (The War Against Japan- Pictorial record.. Army Green Book, Page 26) It looks like a "real" 37mm ATG to me.
I don't think I said the US Army used 2 pounders. But the ALLIES did, at least in theory, and in WITP too. Except they didn't very often have them.
The US Army was using a new 57mm by the time the war began - it had ended development in 1941 - a lengthened version of the British 6 pounder. Otherwise it nominally used the 37mm you mention - which is NOT in the game. Instead an apparently fictional 47mm ATG is! [OK - here is a test: what country BESIDES Japan had a 47mm ATG? If none, why are there TWO 47mm ATGs? 280 and 422.] I replaced this gun with the 37mm M3 ATG. Still figuring out who actually had it in theater? But I bet those guys in Hawaii had some for one. And I think I have an inventory for the Philippines - I bet there are some there too. Need to check.
I do know that the dutch had a 47mm atg, at least in 1940.
RE: RHSCVO and RHSRAO Medium Version 2.54 Released to testers
Posted: Mon Jun 05, 2006 7:25 am
by Jo van der Pluym
ORIGINAL: el cid again
OK = very good - this means they are available at Colon Panama from 15 January 1945 - (I provide free shipping that far) - and the Allied player either ignores them or ships them from there. They are in the game - and get the Bazooka too! - but it must be a special weapon of some kind - since the Dutch Marine Squad cannot have it - perhaps we give them US Marine Squads?
The Dutch Marine Squad is used in 1941 - so it is stuck with historical weapons of that period. Which brings us back to the question - what is THAT squad's anti-armor weapon? The Slothern?
There where 2 Slothern held on Platoon and/or Companie HQ.
But I suggest a compromise, give the Dutch Marine Squad the AT value of 35. Mayby also a higher AP value. And use this squad for both units. This does then form a sort balance the higher value in 1941 and then the lower value end of the war, for no adding the Bazooka. Or add a second Dutch Marine Squad.
RE: RHSCVO and RHSRAO Medium Version 2.54 Released to testers
Posted: Mon Jun 05, 2006 7:29 am
by akdreemer
ORIGINAL: el cid again
I don't think I said the US Army used 2 pounders. But the ALLIES did, at least in theory, and in WITP too. Except they didn't very often have them.
The 2 pdr was a heavy bugger, weighing 1700 lbs in action. Whereas the US 37mm was 970 lbs in action, a much handier gun in places like jungles or in amphib assaults, and plenty capable of dealing with most of the Japanese tanks. It also fired a useful HE and a wicked canister. The 57mm was generally not issued to the Pacific units till late war because there was not apparent need.
RE: RHSCVO and RHSRAO Medium Version 2.54 Released to testers
Posted: Mon Jun 05, 2006 8:53 am
by el cid again
Oddly, our regiment in Alaska has a battery of very old 37mm - the kind used at Wounded Knee in fact - and the gunners say it is the actual GUNS used at Wounded Knee (although that sounds like a Sea Story to me - complete with the mandatory first line "this is no s...")
And we believe the cannister would be effective if used on a mob. I don't want to find out.
RE: RHSCVO and RHSRAO Medium Version 2.54 Released to testers
Posted: Mon Jun 05, 2006 9:32 am
by Jo van der Pluym
ORIGINAL: el cid again
OK = very good - this means they are available at Colon Panama from 15 January 1945 - (I provide free shipping that far) - and the Allied player either ignores them or ships them from there.
I think that 15 February 1945 is a better date. Because I not know when in January the unit is Battleready.
RE: RHSCVO and RHSRAO Medium Version 2.54 Released to testers
Posted: Mon Jun 05, 2006 12:07 pm
by JeffroK
ORIGINAL: el cid again
ORIGINAL: Jo van der Pluym
ORIGINAL: el cid again
Not sure why you think it is wrong to have CVLs with 801 Squadron?
I mean that the 801 squadron is not attached to a ship/CVL but on the header RN CVL's waht only os txt but no ship.
OK - 801 Squadron NEVER was in PTO. I only served on ONE carrier - Furious - which never went to PTO. Otherwise it served in UK. So we should delete 801 squadron - and I guess I didn't do that effectively enough. Thanks.
801 Sqn was flying Seafires when it arrived in the Pacific in June 1945 and saw service in the Sakishima/Okinawa area.
(I have no record of prior to this)
From
The British Pacific & East Indies Fleets (50th Anniversary)
RE: RHSCVO and RHSRAO Medium Version 2.54 Released to testers
Posted: Mon Jun 05, 2006 12:24 pm
by Jo van der Pluym
El Cid Again
Have find the following error(s)
The French Rifle Squad (352) does upgrade to Dutch Marine squad(370)
The only Canadian Rifle Squad (345) has as start date 43 12.
Must there not exist a Canadian Rifle Squad exist with as start date 41 12?
Extra Device slots
I have see that there are 2 Soviet Rifle Squads (378) and(379)are in production before gamestart. One of them can be used as a spare slot.
Also if you need a extra spare slot then suggest I to set of the Soviet Motorized Squad (383) the dat from 42 01 to 41 12. That's a mont earlier. Then is slot Soviet Motorized Squad (382) free
There are also CD guns with no production. If they where replace to slots above 545 etc. Then are these old slots free for other devices.
RE: RHSCVO and RHSRAO Medium Version 2.54 Released to testers
Posted: Mon Jun 05, 2006 2:29 pm
by Kereguelen
ORIGINAL: AlaskanWarrior
ORIGINAL: el cid again
ORIGINAL: AlaskanWarrior
Where did you get this information? First off the US Army did not use 2 pdrs. It used a 37mm ATG. There are photographs of pre-war Phillipine Army troops training with it ans it was standard equipment way back in 1938. (The War Against Japan- Pictorial record.. Army Green Book, Page 26) It looks like a "real" 37mm ATG to me.
I don't think I said the US Army used 2 pounders. But the ALLIES did, at least in theory, and in WITP too. Except they didn't very often have them.
The US Army was using a new 57mm by the time the war began - it had ended development in 1941 - a lengthened version of the British 6 pounder. Otherwise it nominally used the 37mm you mention - which is NOT in the game. Instead an apparently fictional 47mm ATG is! [OK - here is a test: what country BESIDES Japan had a 47mm ATG? If none, why are there TWO 47mm ATGs? 280 and 422.] I replaced this gun with the 37mm M3 ATG. Still figuring out who actually had it in theater? But I bet those guys in Hawaii had some for one. And I think I have an inventory for the Philippines - I bet there are some there too. Need to check.
I do know that the dutch had a 47mm atg, at least in 1940.
Yes, the Dutch fielded the 47mm Boehler ATG (both in the Netherlands and the NEI).
RE: RHSCVO and RHSRAO Medium Version 2.54 Released to testers
Posted: Mon Jun 05, 2006 4:53 pm
by mlees
ORIGINAL: JeffK
ORIGINAL: el cid again
ORIGINAL: Jo van der Pluym
OK - 801 Squadron NEVER was in PTO. I only served on ONE carrier - Furious - which never went to PTO. Otherwise it served in UK. So we should delete 801 squadron - and I guess I didn't do that effectively enough. Thanks.
801 Sqn was flying Seafires when it arrived in the Pacific in June 1945 and saw service in the Sakishima/Okinawa area.
(I have no record of prior to this)
From
The British Pacific & East Indies Fleets (50th Anniversary)
I have a book that shows the 801 sqdn as serving on the Implacable. It's at home, I'm at work. Anybody need me to revarify later?
RE: RHSCVO and RHSRAO Medium Version 2.54 Released to testers
Posted: Mon Jun 05, 2006 7:07 pm
by el cid again
ORIGINAL: Jo van der Pluym
El Cid Again
Have find the following error(s)
The French Rifle Squad (352) does upgrade to Dutch Marine squad(370)
I found that too in a review of all devices last night. Good catch.
The only Canadian Rifle Squad (345) has as start date 43 12.
Must there not exist a Canadian Rifle Squad exist with as start date 41 12?
Extra Device slots
I am not sure what this was for - but I converted it to CW so we have an "evolving" CW infantry squad set.
I have see that there are 2 Soviet Rifle Squads (378) and(379)are in production before gamestart. One of them can be used as a spare slot.
Not sure that is right? We need to see how they are used? There are quite different kinds of Soviet units and this may be good simulation. However - did you see their values? Soviets were (always, since stock)
the best soldiers on the planet. [And the real best soldiers - Ghurkas - were rated very badly]
Also if you need a extra spare slot then suggest I to set of the Soviet Motorized Squad (383) the dat from 42 01 to 41 12. That's a mont earlier. Then is slot Soviet Motorized Squad (382) free
Don't worry about spare slots. There were two Dutch infantry squads - identical!
There are also CD guns with no production. If they where replace to slots above 545 etc. Then are these old slots free for other devices.
Turns out this is not a good idea. The devices are working a lot better in stock slots - hard code issues. I tried this for half a year.
RE: RHSCVO and RHSRAO Medium Version 2.54 Released to testers
Posted: Mon Jun 05, 2006 7:12 pm
by el cid again
Perhaps the Dutch had a 47mm ATG - but not in the game! WE give them 2 pounders and 6 pounders (translated 37 and 57 mm).
Even Jo mentioned them both. Do we have any idea what units might have them, and on what scale?
As for the 20mm Slothern - it is not a squad weapon - so it cannot impact either Dutch Rifle Squads or Dutch Marine Squads. Issued in Japanese fashion (two to a platoon) it is a very small deal - and would show up as a specialized unit - except UNLESS we issue Japanese weapons - we have no such devices - nor slots to put them in. We might use the very high device numbers (which won't replace) - since they won't replace historically. We could do the same for a Dutch 47 mm - IF we knew what unit needed it.
Need to end this: going to move on. I will accept revisions of these matters for 24 hours, then it is frozen until after we test 2.60 for at least a month.
RE: RHSCVO and RHSRAO Medium Version 2.54 Released to testers
Posted: Mon Jun 05, 2006 7:18 pm
by el cid again
MLEES: My FAA book - a very expensive and comprehensive one - British Naval Aircraft Since 1912 - shows 801 Squadron operating Seafires with three assignments - but never in PTO and only once on a carrier not in PTO. Now FAA is a nightmare - units shifted around a great deal. But I have removed the unit from play altogether because my best scholarly source indicates it should never have been in the game at all. IF FAA was easy I would just say that is the end of that: but it is so confusing I believe even a British naval academic might make a mistake. But I certainly need some idea why he made a mistake? I am NOT changing this - nor inclined to change ANY air groups at this point - because it is time to freeze and issue 2.60. However, I will look at what you think you have if you can find it specifically.
RE: RHSCVO and RHSRAO Medium Version 2.54 Released to testers
Posted: Mon Jun 05, 2006 7:18 pm
by Jo van der Pluym
ORIGINAL: el cid again
Perhaps the Dutch had a 47mm ATG - but not in the game! WE give them 2 pounders and 6 pounders (translated 37 and 57 mm).
Even Jo mentioned them both. Do we have any idea what units might have them, and on what scale?
The only mention about the 2 pounder and 6 pounder was the following mesaage
ORIGINAL: Jo van der Pluym
El Cid Again
There are equipment that you have give to the KNIL Mobiele Eenheid, but never had.
1. 6 pdr AT-gun (Dutch has 47mm AT Gun)This also for other KNIL/Netherlands units. Only the Tiger Brigade had this AT gun.
This means that all KNIL units has the 47mm ATG.
RE: RHSCVO and RHSRAO Medium Version 2.54 Released to testers
Posted: Mon Jun 05, 2006 7:23 pm
by akdreemer
ORIGINAL: el cid again
Perhaps the Dutch had a 47mm ATG - but not in the game! WE give them 2 pounders and 6 pounders (translated 37 and 57 mm).
Even Jo mentioned them both. Do we have any idea what units might have them, and on what scale?
2pdr is 40mm, not 37mm. The 57mm would not have been available to the Dutch at this time. The Dutch had 47mm atg organic to their regiments in a mixed heavy weapons company that contained 12 47mm atg and 12 AA mgs.
RE: RHSCVO and RHSRAO Medium Version 2.54 Released to testers
Posted: Mon Jun 05, 2006 7:34 pm
by el cid again
ORIGINAL: AlaskanWarrior
ORIGINAL: el cid again
Perhaps the Dutch had a 47mm ATG - but not in the game! WE give them 2 pounders and 6 pounders (translated 37 and 57 mm).
Even Jo mentioned them both. Do we have any idea what units might have them, and on what scale?
I had the impression a 2 pounder was a 40mm. If this is right - no problem - the game units have 2 pounders. It might also explain why an Allied 47mm - they separated British and Dutch devices?
2pdr is 40mm, not 37mm. The 57mm would not have been available to the Dutch at this time. The Dutch had 47mm atg organic to their regiments in a mixed heavy weapons company that contained 12 47mm atg and 12 AA mgs.
RE: RHSCVO and RHSRAO Medium Version 2.54 Released to testers
Posted: Mon Jun 05, 2006 8:29 pm
by mlees
ORIGINAL: el cid again
MLEES: My FAA book - a very expensive and comprehensive one - British Naval Aircraft Since 1912 - shows 801 Squadron operating Seafires with three assignments - but never in PTO and only once on a carrier not in PTO. Now FAA is a nightmare - units shifted around a great deal. But I have removed the unit from play altogether because my best scholarly source indicates it should never have been in the game at all. IF FAA was easy I would just say that is the end of that: but it is so confusing I believe even a British naval academic might make a mistake. But I certainly need some idea why he made a mistake? I am NOT changing this - nor inclined to change ANY air groups at this point - because it is time to freeze and issue 2.60. However, I will look at what you think you have if you can find it specifically.
Sir. please bear in mind, I am not at home, and until I am (in about 3 more hours...), I can only work off memory, which is admitadly shaky. I mentioned the book I have here:
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=1125985&mpage=7&key=? post #209.
I looked here to verify (the only way I can at work):
http://www.fleetairarmarchive.net/Squadrons/801.html
It also mentiones the deployment of the 801 squadron on the Implacable in 1944, and participated in raids on Truk in March of 1945.
I am not nitpicking. I realise the monumental task, and the many different threads you are juggling. I do not have the book you specifically mention. My source could be in error. If so, just let me know "I believe that is in error." [:)]