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ORIGINAL: wosung

ORIGINAL: Froonp

ORIGINAL: wosung
Sorry, I was tired.
Last 3 ones in Manchuria: Hsingan, Hsinking, Harbin data are cited from (Manchurian) Handbook of Information 1933.

Thanks, and no worries.

Hsinking = "New capital": (Shenyang)

I thought that Changchun (on the WiF FE map) was Hsinking (on the WWII maps I have). Am I wrong ?
And I thought that Shenyang (modern name) was Mukden (WWII name). Am I wrong ?

Yep, You're right on that. I switched the names, while posting.
Sorry again![:D]

ORIGINAL: Froonp

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

Patrice is using brown to indicate roads.  The black are hand drawn rail lines.

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

You know, looking at the new maps for China and planning on how to take out the resources (as the Japanese player) makes me realize how limited the WIF FE China campaigns are.  You typically attack a hex only one or two hexes away from your current front line to capture a resource.  With the new maps, you have to plan how to cut off the enemy's supply while maintaining your own.  Simultaneously, you want to find an avenue of attack that avoids difficult terrain.  It is also necessary to capture the rail line if you want to use the resource yourself.

In WIF FE, I would play to take X number of resources from the Chinese.  Once the Chinese were reduced below a critical number, it was only necessary to inflict more casualties than they were capable of replacing - the war of attrition was a guaranteed way to win.  While that strategy is still viable with the new map, it requires a whole new level of operational planning that was absent previously.

ORIGINAL: ullern

My turn to be detailed:
-Nanyang one hex further northwest (should be on the railway in the gap)
-The second hex west of Nanyang which have most of the label "Han Kiang" in it, should be mountain, so should all hexes west and north of that which aren't already mountains.

A pure game balance change:
-move to resource west of Tsinan one hex east? (To make it easier for Japan to get it out late game)

I'd love to try this out now....

Nils

ORIGINAL: Froonp

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

You know, looking at the new maps for China and planning on how to take out the resources (as the Japanese player) makes me realize how limited the WIF FE China campaigns are.  You typically attack a hex only one or two hexes away from your current front line to capture a resource.  With the new maps, you have to plan how to cut off the enemy's supply while maintaining your own.  Simultaneously, you want to find an avenue of attack that avoids difficult terrain.  It is also necessary to capture the rail line if you want to use the resource yourself.

In WIF FE, I would play to take X number of resources from the Chinese.  Once the Chinese were reduced below a critical number, it was only necessary to inflict more casualties than they were capable of replacing - the war of attrition was a guaranteed way to win.  While that strategy is still viable with the new map, it requires a whole new level of operational planning that was absent previously.

Steve, does this mean that you find the maps as it is becoming, to be an improvement over the WiF FE pacific scalled one ?

ORIGINAL: Froonp

Incy, I did not ignore you nor forgot you. I just had to digest more tons of comments [;)].

Incy> -In the recently added central mountain chain, there is a gap in the center that I don't think warrants mountains (hex NE of Nanyang).
In this area, there are wide stretches of farmland with a little "mountain" here and there.
ullern> Agree with Incy on the area north of Nanyang is relativly flat and open, but is still much higher than the areas further north and south. What about forest instead of mountain?
Froonp> I'm happy you say that. From the start I suspected that this gap should exist.

Area north and north east of Nanyang is 500-1000 m height, area east of the city is 100-200 m, south of it is 0-100 m.
There could be a "C" shaped mountain/forest range from the hex South east of Chengchow (IRL 500-1000 m) to the second-nearest Hex west of Wuhan (IRL 500-1000 m, peaks up to 1500-2000 m).

Incy> -northern rivers: Whoa, that was a bit more than I envisioned, I was imagining trimming the rivers a bit I think a shourt river on either side of Tientsin might be warranted ?
ullern> I think removing the rivers made perfect sense...
Froonp> I'm adding a river hexside north of Tientsin, only because it has a river hexside on the WiF FE map )

Incy> -Shijazhuang sure looks like a quite big city, it's about two hexes west of Taiyuan and SW of Paoding (it looks bigger than Paoding).
Froonp> It is out of the picture, it was created in the 50s.

Incy> -Paoding should be wurther east. Relatively to Peking, it'¨s more south than west
Froonp> I agree. Did it.

Incy> -Mountains next to Peking should run southwest, not west. I suggest hex W and 2 hexes W of Peking should be mountain, maybe hex where Paoding is (was) and west of it too.
Froonp> I agree too. I added 3 Mountain hexes. Not as much as you asked for.

Incy> -Shantou (2-3 hexes on the coast east of Canton) and Dianquian (further east) seem quite large, and also look like a very good ports.
Both also has a lot of heavily populated areas around it. Deserves a port (or maybe a city?). Note that the populated areas here just go a bit inland, then comes large swaths of mountains. Dianquian is actually a small island.
Froonp> I prefer add nothing east of Canton. Just for my records, what would be the 40s names of these, Wosung. For me the first would be Swatow, but the second ?

Yep Swatou and for Dianquan/Dianqian?? I don't know. Didn't even find it in my map-indexes. As I said before, the other historical important ports from Hongkong to Hangchow were: Swatow (Shantou), Amoy (Xiamen) and Foochow (Fuzhou), All of them were treaty ports: Opened by the West with force in 19th Century, Sino-western trade centres with western city enclaves. Note that in treaty ports (the biggest one was Shanghai) the exterritoral foreign (english, french) city parts were untouched by Japanese troops until December 7th 1941.

Incy> -Kunming has a series of lakes south of it, might deserve a lake hexside
Froonp> They are too small to deserve a lake hexside. My basis here is that a hex is about 90 km wide. So a lake has to be something close to that to appear as an hexside.

Incy> -hex between lake and resource near Sining should be clear/forest?
Froonp> Geographical maps only show mountains there.

Incy> -3 hexes surrounded by river in the north look a bit strange. I can see why they're there, but maybe model it as swamp, or maybe have fewer river hexsides ? The easternmost hexside could be a lake.
Froonp> I was puzzled too when I saw them, but I think they depict the area wuite well. This is no swamp, this is only the Yellow River (what is its chinese name by the way Wosung ?) that branches off and join again multiples times.

Name of Yellow River would be Hwangho (Huanghe) if that was the question. You could write the other river(s?) in one word: Hankiang etc. Pearl River would be Chukiang. But according to Travel Survival kit, p. 195 and 2 maps, it's the name only for the delta south of Canton. The River you labeled Pearl River would be - well Hsikiang (Xijiang = Western River)

Incy> -mountains SE of Tsinan seem to small, what about making hex NW of Suchow and hex E of Tsianan mountain (or at least forest)
Froonp> I agree and I waited for this remark from the start. Being minimalist as Steve, I said nothing until someone else spotted it too. I added one mountain hex NE of Suchow. The maps warrant this. In the other places, where the rails passes, the maps show that the rails are outside the hilly terrain.

Incy> -The area between Han Kiang and Yangzee seems to have way to good terrain. My suggestion:
Hex NW+W of Wuhan (east of Han Kiang): clear->Mountain
Hex west of that: clear->forest
Hex west of that: clear->mountain
Hex west of that: forest->mountain
Hex NE of that: clear->mountain
Hex NW of that: clear->forest (linking up to forest north of river)
Froonp> I agree that it seems there is too much good terrain, but I think that the mountains here are not elevated enough or broken enough to warrant all that. Also, those modifications would widden the mountain between Wuhan & Chungking too much. What do you think for this place others ? Wosung ? Nils ?

See above: Nanyang-gap

Incy> -The mountain area west of the railroad between Canton and Changsha seems to have large areas of easier terrain in it.
My suggestion:
Hexes NW, SW of resource: mountain->forest
hex W of resource: mountain clear/forest (rugged but better than neighbouring "hills")
Hexes W & SW of Changsha: clear->forest (could be mountains too but not rugged enough)
Froonp> I think that the fact that the area is easier as you say is already shown on the map by the "valley" of 3 forest Hexes (1 hex is about 90 km) along which the railways goes. I think this area is good as it is.

Incy> -I think Kunming should be placed one hex SW, it's to close to Chungking and Kweiang.
Froonp> I think that you were completely right here. I measured the distances between Kunming and the neighboring cities :
Kunming-Hanoi : about 550 km --> 6 hexes. It is 6 hexes on the map.
Kunming-Chungking : about 625 km --> 7 hexes. It is 5 hexes on the map.
Kunming-Kweiyang : about 435 km --> 5 hexes. It is 4 hexes on the map.
So now I think that moving it where youindicate put it at the right place.
I had to redraw the Burma Road there too (the northwards bend it takes to exit Kunming is historical.
I had to move the Alpine hexside slightly southwards, and it is ok on the real maps.
I had to redraw the rail from Hanoi too.

Incy> -Kweiyang area has way to nice terrain, there isn't much terrain in the area that should be better than forest. Kweiyang itself should at least be forest and maybe mountain. The hex E and W of it should be mountain. The hex SE probably also. Hex SW is closer to forest. Hex NE could qualify as clear, the hex east of that is forest at best. 2 hexes E of Kweiyang is forest (or mountain).
Froonp> I agree with you on the general picture, but as for the area west of Wuhan, I'm reluctant to change it, because the WiF FE map has a full clear hex here, and this is quite important. What do you think for this place others ? Wosung ? Nils ?

Will be posting pictures soon after.

What about adding the only (?) provincial capital, which is not represented on the map: Kaifeng (hex east to Chengchow)? Provincial capitals per se were important political, economical, administrative and traffic centres.

The rail northeast of Taiyuan looks quite bizzare because it ends nowhere. End station was Paotow, next Hex to the east was the bigger Kweisui (Hohot /Huhehote). Hex Northwest of Peking could be Kalgan (Zhangjiakou), then much more important then Paoting.

ORIGINAL: Froonp

What about adding the only (?) provincial capital, which is not represented on the map: Kaifeng (hex east to Chengchow)? Provincial capitals per se were important political, economical, administrative and traffic centres.

The rail northeast of Taiyuan looks quite bizzare because it ends nowhere. End station was Paotow, next Hex to the east was the bigger Kweisui (Hohot /Huhehote). Hex Northwest of Peking could be Kalgan (Zhangjiakou), then much more important then Paoting.

Thanks for the proposals Wosung. I added them to my Excel file of cities & terrain feature added and cities & terrain feature proposed.
Please, others, comment those cities, whether you think more would be good, or not.

I for one think that the Kaifeng city addition would be good. After all it would be just adjacent to a city already existing, so would not add much in terms of extra suplly for the chinese, but it goes the right way as to make this area a city dense area, as it is on the WiF FE map.

For the cities in the north, at the end of the rail that ends nowhere, I had put Paotow on the very first version of the map, but deleted it nearly as fast because it gives the Chinese an enormous flanking power they do not have in WiF FE.

About Paotow, I agree with Patrice. Playing Japan, with the latest version of the northern map, I would go to take out Taiyuan to secure the resource north of it. Once that city falls, any Chinese units defending the resource will be without supply and easy to mop up. Adding Paoting to the map changes everything because then the Japanese have to fight through the mountains and those nasty alpine hexsides to take the resource and push on to Paoting to prevent future counter attacks from there.

I might suggest simply removing the spurious rail line (there is a pun here for such rail ilnes are known as 'spurs') since it doesn't add to game play whatsoever.