Part 3 of FitE 5.0

[larryfulkerson]

This is the Axis air losses report just after the second combat round:
 

[larryfulkerson]

This is some Axis losses just after the 2nd combat round of turn 32:
 

[larryfulkerson]

[LLv34_Snefens]

ORIGINAL: larryfulkerson

I've noticed that the Soviets can make up the difference in numbers of units if they hide most of their front line behind rivers that have only a few fording points.  That way they have to defend only a few places and not along the entire front line.

Playing solitaire can cause you to kid yourself into assuming too much. Why would anyone restrict themself to only attack across the bridges?



This is the situation from turn 19.
Why have the German player slugged his way through Kiev, when he could simply cross river SE of the city and surround the whole lot? Further down the river the entire stretch from Kremenchug to Dnepropetrovsk is basically undefended and the whole front could have been rolled up and Kharkov captured in a couple of weeks.
How does the military saying goes: "Reinforce succes, not failure"? There seems to have been put too much force into these attrition battles, instead of through the open spaces.

What to do now? That's hard to answer. Mud period is coming up in 1-3 turns and only Sevastopol is within reach before that. I don't know if you want to pretend the soviet player is still unaware of the danger along the Dnepr or you want to plug the hole. But if it's not adressed, I as Axis would regroup during the break and prepare for an offensive through the gap.
In either case the situation is bleak for the Axis. That's some massive losses accumulated with very little to show for, so winter will be very rough.

[glvaca]

ORIGINAL: LLv34_Snefens

The reference to the "old border" in the house rule is the pre-winterwar one. So the Finns at Salla are not violating the rule.

Up north the green line is correct.

Isn't Salla up North? If so then what you are saying is that the Finnish troops at Salla are in violation of the house rule. If so, what's there use up there?

[glvaca]

I thank you both for your comments.  Anybody think the Axis should switch over to a defensive mode?
[/quote]
Quite welcome. Thank you for a great AAR.

Honestly, I think the Germans had it. The losses you sustained will never be replaced and the Russians are almost ready for the winter offensive and still almost full strength. You're in for a very long winter (as the Germans off course [:D])

Question for you, do you feel that pushing so hard regardless of losses was worth it in terms of victory objectives captured? I.e., did the replacement objectives captured (Smolensk, Kiev, etc..) reduced the Soviet replacement rate enough to justify the cost?

[larryfulkerson]

ORIGINAL:  LLv34_Snefens
Playing solitaire can cause you to kid yourself into assuming too much. Why would anyone restrict themself to only attack across the bridges?
Why have the German player slugged his way through Kiev, when he could simply cross river SE of the city and surround the whole lot? Further down the river the entire stretch from Kremenchug to Dnepropetrovsk is basically undefended and the whole front could have been rolled up and Kharkov captured in a couple of weeks.
How does the military saying goes: "Reinforce succes, not failure"? There seems to have been put too much force into these attrition battles, instead of through the open spaces.

 
See, this is the reason I lose at FitE.  You guys can see things that I'm blind to.  You're absolutely correct and I'm almost ashamed to say I never even considered it ( crossing somewhere except at the bridges )....I guess I'm still a newbie.
 
 

ORIGINAL:  glvaca
Honestly, I think the Germans [have] had it. The losses you sustained will never be replaced and the Russians are almost ready for the winter offensive and still almost full strength. You're in for a very long winter
 
Question for you, do you feel that pushing so hard regardless of losses was worth it in terms of victory objectives captured? I.e., did the replacement objectives captured (Smolensk, Kiev, etc..) reduced the Soviet replacement rate enough to justify the cost?

 
My intent, as the Axis, was to capture the victory objectives, Smolensk, Kiev, Odessa, Sevastopol, etc. , specifically in order to reduce the number of Soviet Rifle Squads I would have to face through the entire war ( there are still some 370 turns left )  and I felt if I could reduce the amount of squads he, the Soviet dude, got by even 50 per turn that's 50 times 370 = um.....a large number of squads , not quite 19,000 I'm guessing.
 
I think also that:
 
(1) if I had pushed harder, moved faster, during the early turns perhaps I could have captured more soviet units and wouldn't have had to face them later on.
 
(2) I think maybe attempting to take Leningrad only from the SouthWest may have been a mistake....it may have been easier to take if I forced him to defend both rivers ( SE and SW ).
 
(3) and as Snefens pointed out....there are tactical / strategic lessons that I still need to learn ( make your own bridges if need be, attack where he ain't, etc. )
 
So I'm thinking it's impossible for the Axis to win at this juncture and I'm thinking the Axis dude should concede defeat.

[LLv34_Snefens]

ORIGINAL: glvaca

Isn't Salla up North? If so then what you are saying is that the Finnish troops at Salla are in violation of the house rule. If so, what's there use up there?

Sorry for being unclear. By "up north" I meant next to Murmansk. Salla is north but not nearly as much The finns can be used to capture back their old territory there. At Murmansk they can only be used to defend the border. Then again there doesn't start any Finnish units up there. Those you see are what Larry has moved up there to bolsters his defense.

ORIGINAL: larryfulkerson

So I'm thinking it's impossible for the Axis to win at this juncture and I'm thinking the Axis dude should concede defeat.

Just because Moscow is out of the question, doesn't mean the game is over. If the Soviets just roll over if Moscow is captured in 1941 and the Axis does the same if it isn't, then DNO covers that time space better with much more chrome.

This is just when the scenario gets interesting IMO.
Berlin is still some 1200 km away and the sceanrio wasn't really intended for the TOAW victory system, but instead, as the briefing says somewhere, that the Germans win, if they don't loose.
You will have to whip up a mother of a defense to hold till 1945, but who knows?

[glvaca]

ORIGINAL: LLv34_Snefens

ORIGINAL: glvaca

Isn't Salla up North? If so then what you are saying is that the Finnish troops at Salla are in violation of the house rule. If so, what's there use up there?

Sorry for being unclear. By "up north" I meant next to Murmansk. Salla is north but not nearly as much

Ah, that explains the misunderstanding.


The finns can be used to capture back their old territory there. At Murmansk they can only be used to defend the border. Then again there doesn't start any Finnish units up there. Those you see are what Larry has moved up there to bolsters his defense.

I tend to lean to the baordgame on which this game is inspired.
In the South to historical line close to Leningrad.
SE Svir river.
North, no restriction.

Best,
Glenn

[kfmiller41]

I was wondering the same thing about the why the vacant rivers were not being attacked, my opponent doesn't seem to have that problem [X(] and I am trying to cover the entire Dnieper river, which is difficult but the rivers offer the best defense early on. Worst thing i fear as the siviet player is being flanked and surrounded. Once units are engaged it is hard to get them pulled back without them falling apart (I do know how to use other units to help withdraw, but you do have to have them available) and german air is killing me when I try to move to much. All in all i am enjoying the game. Hey Larry, would you be interested in doing a DNO game against me when you have time. Seems we both have the same level of experience and if i could ever figure out how to do the things with pictures that you do I could do an AAR from the soviet side.[:D]

[larryfulkerson]

ORIGINAL: miller41
Hey Larry, would you be interested in doing a DNO game against me when you have time.

Yeah, sure. Send me a move and we're on our way. Or would you rather be USSR?

[larryfulkerson]

The Soviets are doing this massive counterattack to force the Axis back across the river:
 

[larryfulkerson]

Here's the Soviet losses after all the combats in turn 32:
 

[larryfulkerson]

The cease fire has started and this is what the north half of the front lines looked like to the Axis:
 

[larryfulkerson]

Here's what the south half of the front lines looked like:
 

[larryfulkerson]

Here's some Axis losses so far:
 

[larryfulkerson]

And here's the whole map ( it's not animated since not much moved ) :
 

[kfmiller41]

If you want to be the Germans so you can try some new tactics, thats fine with me. I like hanging on and wanted to try some things I am learning from my other game.[&o]

[larryfulkerson]

ORIGINAL: miller41
If you want to be the Germans so you can try some new tactics, thats fine with me. I like hanging on and wanted to try some things I am learning from my other game.[&o]

Okie dokie....I'll be the German dude. I PM'd you asking for your email address. We're on our way.

[Dr. Foo]

So your testing says that 33 turns in and it is over for Germany? Wow, so now is it on to Berlin?