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RE: The Elephant Vanishes : obvert (J) vs Historiker_SqzMyLemon_Canoerebel (A)

Posted: Wed May 30, 2018 3:46 pm
by Lowpe
Allies coming with some A units there at Ketoi.

I wish you had some AA and more AT/ART there.

And that is the weakest held island? Wow!!![X(]

RE: The Elephant Vanishes : obvert (J) vs Historiker_SqzMyLemon_Canoerebel (A)

Posted: Wed May 30, 2018 4:21 pm
by PaxMondo
ORIGINAL: obvert

ORIGINAL: Alfred

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

Allied flak in '44. yuck. I've never come up with a counter for it really. Going high enough to mitigate it means basically no hits, so useless mission. Can't get enough bombers (actually total bombs) to get the hit% to work. This is where a 4E with a 10xbomb bombload would really show up. The IJ 2E 4x250 just can't generate enough bombs to get any hits … So, you have to go in lower and the losses are really high ...

Relatively speaking, there is an altitude "sweet spot" where the overall ROI on air-ground is improved. Whether it is then a satisfactory ROI is a different question. Air-ship is a nastier situation for the bombers as there is no equivalent "sweet spot". As this is relative finding the "sweet spot" does not necessarily result in fewer aircraft losses in aggregate but rather that the ratio of losses to hits achieved is better. Trying to fly above the flak ceiling (remember there is some fuzziness to flak ceiling anyway) will not find the "sweet spot".

Much is dependent on the model AA gun and the aircraft types used. Where the flak defence is comprised of multiple, layered ceiling model AA guns, there may in fact be no "sweet spot" at all. Mixing various different bomber models in the same raid also makes it harder to find the "sweet spot".

In very general terms you should bear the following in mind:

1. An AA gun has 3 ceiling effectiveness bands; the bottom third is usually it's least effective ceiling band.

2. The flak gap of classical WITP was not completely removed in AE. In AE you can encounter flak within the entire ceiling range (plus the fuzziness factor) but it may not be as intense around the old flak gap area.

3. The important factors to consider when choosing the bombers include (but not limited only to)

(a) having armour - sending a bomber which lacks armour against an Allied location bristling with flak is not advisable

(b) maneouver rating - single engine bombers will generally have a much better rating than 2 engine bombers

(c) DB and TB types should only be used in a level bombing capacity as this reduces their exposure to flak

Alfred

Yeah, all of that. The gaps I see are only for Allied planes hitting me!
+1
Precisely my issue. I know where the IJ holes are, ok better to say I know where the IJ AA can hit (shorter list). On the allied side, there may be some 'gaps', but I haven't found any of use yet … ;)

RE: The Elephant Vanishes : obvert (J) vs Historiker_SqzMyLemon_Canoerebel (A)

Posted: Wed May 30, 2018 4:42 pm
by Chickenboy
Spent some time looking for the relevant hotkey for 'national code'. My olde tyme printed manual didn't have it. Hitting '4' displays the national codes. Unfortunately, looks like most of the Kuriles are '101'. Japan proper is '100'. So taking the Kuriles won't trigger Kamikazes. EXCEPT for Paramushiro Jima. That's code '100'. That and the no-name, no-dot base hex immediately to the North of it.

I kind of wished that he had focused on Paramushiro, as that capture would have given you another potential arrow in your quiver to deal with the Allied invasions in this area. Here's hoping.

RE: The Elephant Vanishes : obvert (J) vs Historiker_SqzMyLemon_Canoerebel (A)

Posted: Thu May 31, 2018 12:02 am
by Lokasenna
ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

Spent some time looking for the relevant hotkey for 'national code'. My olde tyme printed manual didn't have it. Hitting '4' displays the national codes. Unfortunately, looks like most of the Kuriles are '101'. Japan proper is '100'. So taking the Kuriles won't trigger Kamikazes. EXCEPT for Paramushiro Jima. That's code '100'. That and the no-name, no-dot base hex immediately to the North of it.

I kind of wished that he had focused on Paramushiro, as that capture would have given you another potential arrow in your quiver to deal with the Allied invasions in this area. Here's hoping.

Not really. The invasion package is pretty lackluster for Japan, and at this point in the war they'd really only be worthwhile as backline garrison troops. They arrive with 20-30 Exp, IIRC.

RE: The Elephant Vanishes : obvert (J) vs Historiker_SqzMyLemon_Canoerebel (A)

Posted: Thu May 31, 2018 4:30 am
by obvert
ORIGINAL: Lowpe

Allies coming with some A units there at Ketoi.

I wish you had some AA and more AT/ART there.

And that is the weakest held island? Wow!!![X(]

There is a lot of AA in the Base force unit, with the 12cm DP guns and 8cm guns. Lots of little stuff too, 25mm and 20mm. I can't really allocate Army AA units to the Kuriles now as the ones on the HI are stretched already to cover all of the industry, resources and other strat bombing targets.

There are two AT gun units here, more than any other Kuriles island right now. The arty unit isn't stellar, but it adds a bit and has even been hitting the LSTs which is a bonus.

This one will be interesting. I'll keep the mines coming and the troops transporting if I can, although after day one I bet he'll cotton on to just how much can be thrown on quickly. We'll see where the DS goes.


RE: The Elephant Vanishes : obvert (J) vs Historiker_SqzMyLemon_Canoerebel (A)

Posted: Thu May 31, 2018 5:06 am
by obvert
ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

Spent some time looking for the relevant hotkey for 'national code'. My olde tyme printed manual didn't have it. Hitting '4' displays the national codes. Unfortunately, looks like most of the Kuriles are '101'. Japan proper is '100'. So taking the Kuriles won't trigger Kamikazes. EXCEPT for Paramushiro Jima. That's code '100'. That and the no-name, no-dot base hex immediately to the North of it.

I kind of wished that he had focused on Paramushiro, as that capture would have given you another potential arrow in your quiver to deal with the Allied invasions in this area. Here's hoping.

I wished he'd go for Para too!! But not for kamis. That would be nice, but the main goal there is to have him face the forts, the CD guns, the mass of troops on the island, and get some good Allied units stuck in a bit of a tar baby. Ketoi could still be tough if the stacking is a much over as I think it is, but those are very good Allied ground forces.

RE: The Elephant Vanishes : obvert (J) vs Historiker_SqzMyLemon_Canoerebel (A)

Posted: Thu May 31, 2018 11:37 am
by witpqs
What has happened on Marcus Island?

RE: The Elephant Vanishes : obvert (J) vs Historiker_SqzMyLemon_Canoerebel (A)

Posted: Thu May 31, 2018 11:52 am
by HansBolter
ORIGINAL: witpqs

What has happened on Marcus Island?


Lackluster invasion attempt repelled.

RE: The Elephant Vanishes : obvert (J) vs Historiker_SqzMyLemon_Canoerebel (A)

Posted: Thu May 31, 2018 12:21 pm
by witpqs
ORIGINAL: HansBolter

ORIGINAL: witpqs

What has happened on Marcus Island?


Lackluster invasion attempt repelled.
CR pulled out the troops?

RE: The Elephant Vanishes : obvert (J) vs Historiker_SqzMyLemon_Canoerebel (A)

Posted: Thu May 31, 2018 2:30 pm
by Lowpe
Hans is joking. I think.[;)]

Obvert has three games going and I can only imagine the time it takes...

RE: The Elephant Vanishes : obvert (J) vs Historiker_SqzMyLemon_Canoerebel (A)

Posted: Thu May 31, 2018 2:41 pm
by witpqs
ORIGINAL: Lowpe

Hans is joking. I think.[;)]

Obvert has three games going and I can only imagine the time it takes...
Ah! He hooked me easily because it did look like an invasion 'lite'. I do wonder if it will succeed without reinforcement or some other augmentation.

RE: The Elephant Vanishes : obvert (J) vs Historiker_SqzMyLemon_Canoerebel (A)

Posted: Thu May 31, 2018 7:29 pm
by Chickenboy
ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

Spent some time looking for the relevant hotkey for 'national code'. My olde tyme printed manual didn't have it. Hitting '4' displays the national codes. Unfortunately, looks like most of the Kuriles are '101'. Japan proper is '100'. So taking the Kuriles won't trigger Kamikazes. EXCEPT for Paramushiro Jima. That's code '100'. That and the no-name, no-dot base hex immediately to the North of it.

I kind of wished that he had focused on Paramushiro, as that capture would have given you another potential arrow in your quiver to deal with the Allied invasions in this area. Here's hoping.

Not really. The invasion package is pretty lackluster for Japan, and at this point in the war they'd really only be worthwhile as backline garrison troops. They arrive with 20-30 Exp, IIRC.

That may be, but my comments were mostly in reference to kamikaze availability rather than the homeland defense scrub LCUs that the Japanese get when triggered. I'd still take them as backline garrison troops-the time to get them properly outfitted and (start) training is now with the enemy on the doorstep rather than when he's on Honshu or Hokkaido proper.

RE: The Elephant Vanishes : obvert (J) vs Historiker_SqzMyLemon_Canoerebel (A)

Posted: Thu May 31, 2018 10:25 pm
by Lokasenna
ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

Spent some time looking for the relevant hotkey for 'national code'. My olde tyme printed manual didn't have it. Hitting '4' displays the national codes. Unfortunately, looks like most of the Kuriles are '101'. Japan proper is '100'. So taking the Kuriles won't trigger Kamikazes. EXCEPT for Paramushiro Jima. That's code '100'. That and the no-name, no-dot base hex immediately to the North of it.

I kind of wished that he had focused on Paramushiro, as that capture would have given you another potential arrow in your quiver to deal with the Allied invasions in this area. Here's hoping.

Not really. The invasion package is pretty lackluster for Japan, and at this point in the war they'd really only be worthwhile as backline garrison troops. They arrive with 20-30 Exp, IIRC.

That may be, but my comments were mostly in reference to kamikaze availability rather than the homeland defense scrub LCUs that the Japanese get when triggered. I'd still take them as backline garrison troops-the time to get them properly outfitted and (start) training is now with the enemy on the doorstep rather than when he's on Honshu or Hokkaido proper.

But kamikaze availability is dependent on distance, not country codes (unless I missed something).

Besides that, I find the usefulness of kamikazes to be dubious. Each plane used is 1 free VP for the Allies, which demands a good rate of return. You need to sink 2 LSTs when using 30 planes, for example, and even then you're not really making much progress.

RE: The Elephant Vanishes : obvert (J) vs Historiker_SqzMyLemon_Canoerebel (A)

Posted: Fri Jun 01, 2018 2:28 am
by Alfred
ORIGINAL: Lokasenna


... kamikaze availability is dependent on distance, not country codes (unless I missed something)...


Correct but there is an important exception to the rule that it is distance which triggers kamikazes. A Chinese country code hex never triggers kamikazes, irrespective of how close it is to Saigon, Takao, or Tokyo.

Alfred

RE: The Elephant Vanishes : obvert (J) vs Historiker_SqzMyLemon_Canoerebel (A)

Posted: Fri Jun 01, 2018 8:19 am
by zuluhour
reading both sides, (just thought I'd let on) as I only follow one IJ AAR at a time. You have
a real fine companion AAR to Dan's and I think you will enjoy it later.

RE: The Elephant Vanishes : obvert (J) vs Historiker_SqzMyLemon_Canoerebel (A)

Posted: Fri Jun 01, 2018 1:15 pm
by Chickenboy
ORIGINAL: Alfred

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna


... kamikaze availability is dependent on distance, not country codes (unless I missed something)...


Correct but there is an important exception to the rule that it is distance which triggers kamikazes. A Chinese country code hex never triggers kamikazes, irrespective of how close it is to Saigon, Takao, or Tokyo.

Alfred

Thank you both for the clarifications. Alfred: would a 101 national code within 20 hexes of Tokyo trigger kamikazes or 'emergency' LCUs? I assume that a 100 code within 20 hexes would trigger both the kamikazes as well as the LCU 'emergency' reinforcements?

For what it's worth, Ketoi Jima is 25 hexes; Paramushiro 30.

RE: The Elephant Vanishes : obvert (J) vs Historiker_SqzMyLemon_Canoerebel (A)

Posted: Sat Jun 02, 2018 2:30 pm
by obvert
ORIGINAL: witpqs

ORIGINAL: HansBolter

ORIGINAL: witpqs

What has happened on Marcus Island?


Lackluster invasion attempt repelled.
CR pulled out the troops?

Yep. All troops removed. Well, all that didn't perish on LSTs. Did I post that yet?

Oh, yeah, post #2015, Oct 13. Got a lot of tanks and arty in the pullback, but he eventually evacuated it all.

RE: The Elephant Vanishes : obvert (J) vs Historiker_SqzMyLemon_Canoerebel (A)

Posted: Sat Jun 02, 2018 2:34 pm
by obvert
ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

ORIGINAL: Alfred

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna


... kamikaze availability is dependent on distance, not country codes (unless I missed something)...


Correct but there is an important exception to the rule that it is distance which triggers kamikazes. A Chinese country code hex never triggers kamikazes, irrespective of how close it is to Saigon, Takao, or Tokyo.

Alfred

Thank you both for the clarifications. Alfred: would a 101 national code within 20 hexes of Tokyo trigger kamikazes or 'emergency' LCUs? I assume that a 100 code within 20 hexes would trigger both the kamikazes as well as the LCU 'emergency' reinforcements?

For what it's worth, Ketoi Jima is 25 hexes; Paramushiro 30.

Yes, curious about that too.

I am pretty good with kamis, so far. I like mixing them with standard strike planes. I think the two together can work well and get a good rate of return.


RE: The Elephant Vanishes : obvert (J) vs Historiker_SqzMyLemon_Canoerebel (A)

Posted: Sat Jun 02, 2018 2:54 pm
by Alfred
ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

ORIGINAL: Alfred

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna


... kamikaze availability is dependent on distance, not country codes (unless I missed something)...


Correct but there is an important exception to the rule that it is distance which triggers kamikazes. A Chinese country code hex never triggers kamikazes, irrespective of how close it is to Saigon, Takao, or Tokyo.

Alfred

Thank you both for the clarifications. Alfred: would a 101 national code within 20 hexes of Tokyo trigger kamikazes or 'emergency' LCUs? I assume that a 100 code within 20 hexes would trigger both the kamikazes as well as the LCU 'emergency' reinforcements?

For what it's worth, Ketoi Jima is 25 hexes; Paramushiro 30.

These are two separate things. The kamikaze trigger is a distance trigger whereas the emergency reinforcements trigger is a nationality code hex trigger.

1. Kamikaze.
  • triggered when an Allied base is 20 hexes or less from Tokyo, Saigon or Takao
  • triggered when the Allied base must meet certain criteria primarily in terms of size and not be on a Chinese national code hex) to qualify
  • not triggered by Allied LCUs located on a non base hex within range

Therefore to your specific question, the only potential triggers to the north of Hokkaido are:
  • Toyohara
  • Etorofu
  • Uruppu

2. Emergency Reinforcements
  • triggered by the presence of an Allied LCU (there is a size threshold) on any nationality code hex 100
  • not triggered by an Allied LCU on a code hex 101

Therefore to your specific question, yes an Allied landing on say Sapporo will trigger both kamikazes and emergency units as Sapporo is both within range of Tokyo and it is a code hex 100.

A landing on Paramushiro triggers the emergency reinforcements only because it is the only hex in the Kuriles which is code 100 but it does not trigger kamikazes because it is too far from Tokyo. Toyohara is the opposite because it is hex code 101 (hence no emergency reinforcements) but is within range of Tokyo (hence triggers kamikazes).

Alfred

RE: The Elephant Vanishes : obvert (J) vs Historiker_SqzMyLemon_Canoerebel (A)

Posted: Sat Jun 02, 2018 3:33 pm
by witpqs
ORIGINAL: obvert

ORIGINAL: witpqs

ORIGINAL: HansBolter





Lackluster invasion attempt repelled.
CR pulled out the troops?

Yep. All troops removed. Well, all that didn't perish on LSTs. Did I post that yet?

Oh, yeah, post #2015, Oct 13. Got a lot of tanks and arty in the pullback, but he eventually evacuated it all.
Thanks. I wasn't sure how that had shaken out, maybe focusing on the uncertainty of whether he was coming (with more) or going (pulling out).