Matrix Games Forums

[font="Times New Roman"]July 20 - 22, 1943[/font]

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[font="Microsoft Sans Serif"]SUBS: [/font] Another midget sub nailed by my surface forces at Buin after getting two errant fish off toward the Santa Fe.

[font="Microsoft Sans Serif"]INDIA: [/font] Nick puts up a large LR CAP over Imphal and sweeps the edges getting most of LR CAP. Of course the Wellingtons make it in before the faster B-25s and get riddled. Later the base is bombed by both sides to hit troops. Our B-25s get enough hits to likely slow the Japanese here, but one division, the shell of the 33rd, makes it out before the ensuing DA. We still get a 1:1 even though forts go to 0. The division eventually escapes, but a bunch of AA is left and destroyed when we take the base.

As Nick said, this is decisively the end of the India campaign. I'd say tactically he won that phase of the war, but strategically it seems like the time and resources used to fight there so long could have a lasting effect. We'll see.

[font="Microsoft Sans Serif"]CENT PAC: [/font] The battle at Kwejalein got a bit more interesting as a DA goes badly resulting in a completely disabled regiment. [X(] I thought we'd been chipping away for long enough at the Japanese units here, but apparently not. It didn't help that weather kept the bombers away. I'm loading up another ind. regiment at 97% prep and preparing an all out bombing and bombardment campaign. Other than this all seems well in CentPac. I've noticed some CM at Wake. I'll recon to make sure, and will get some Fletchers ready to roll.

[font="Microsoft Sans Serif"]SO PAC: [/font] Georges make a shambles of the CAP at Lae. Too bad. I thought these might do well there with some decent radar. Didn't get the early warning I had hoped for though, and the Georges got about 6:1. Still, he lost 6 planes over my base, we lost only 9 pilots KIA on the day (total), and other than the P-38s I'm not so concerned about the pools for these planes. Don't lie giving him kills for the surviving pilots though, so I've got to get some P-47s down here soon.

Attacked at Buin on the 21st and failed to knock the forts down, but did get a better result in terms of disabled squads. I'll attack again on the 23rd now that a reinforcing Marine regiment has landed safely.

[font="Microsoft Sans Serif"]CHINA: [/font] Nick finally knocks the Chinese out of 76, 47. It's been a long fight there. He'll be able to mop these up as they retreated into the surrounded area to the East. I'll run them to the East one hex further to the x3 terrain, but the only hope is that they again retreat to the NW next time. Chungking is finally moving up in supply levels.

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AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR July 20, 43
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ASW attack near Buin at 109,131

Japanese Ships
SSX Ha-41, hits 6, on fire, heavy damage

Allied Ships
CL Santa Fe
CL Denver
DD Foote
DD Taylor
DD Strong

SSX Ha-41 launches 2 torpedoes at CL Santa Fe
Ha-41 bottoming out ....

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Morning Air attack on 2nd Hyderabad Base Force, at 59,41 , near Imphal

Weather in hex: Thunderstorms

Raid spotted at 31 NM, estimated altitude 26,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 8 minutes

Japanese aircraft
Ki-44-IIc Tojo x 36

Allied aircraft
Hurricane IIb Trop x 8

No Japanese losses

Allied aircraft losses
Hurricane IIb Trop: 2 destroyed

Aircraft Attacking:
36 x Ki-44-IIc Tojo sweeping at 25000 feet

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Morning Air attack on Kalemyo , at 59,42

Weather in hex: Thunderstorms

Raid detected at 43 NM, estimated altitude 26,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 12 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M5c Zero x 32
A6M8 Zero x 46
Ki-43-IIIa Oscar x 28

Allied aircraft
P-38H Lightning x 12
P-47D2 Thunderbolt x 16

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M5c Zero: 9 destroyed
A6M8 Zero: 3 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
P-38H Lightning: 1 destroyed
P-47D2 Thunderbolt: 3 destroyed

CAP engaged:
252 Ku S-1 with A6M8 Zero (14 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
14 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 25000 , scrambling fighters between 0 and 25000.
Raid is overhead
Hosho-1 with A6M8 Zero (18 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
18 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 25000 , scrambling fighters between 0 and 25000.
Raid is overhead
Chitose-1 with A6M5c Zero (16 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
16 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 20000 , scrambling fighters between 0 and 20000.
Raid is overhead
13th Sentai with Ki-43-IIIa Oscar (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 28 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 25000 , scrambling fighters between 0 and 25000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 2 minutes
286 Ku S-1 with A6M8 Zero (14 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
14 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 25000 , scrambling fighters between 0 and 25000.
Raid is overhead
Kaiyo-1 with A6M5c Zero (16 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
16 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 15000 , scrambling fighters between 0 and 15000.
Raid is overhead

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Morning Air attack on Kalemyo , at 59,42

Weather in hex: Thunderstorms

Raid detected at 44 NM, estimated altitude 25,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 12 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M5c Zero x 11
A6M8 Zero x 30
Ki-43-IIIa Oscar x 23

Allied aircraft
P-38H Lightning x 4
P-47D2 Thunderbolt x 18

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M8 Zero: 10 destroyed
Ki-43-IIIa Oscar: 1 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
P-38H Lightning: 1 destroyed

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Morning Air attack on 3rd Carabiniers Regiment, at 59,42 (Kalemyo)

Weather in hex: Thunderstorms

Raid spotted at 18 NM, estimated altitude 13,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 5 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M8 Zero x 9
Ki-21-IIa Sally x 27
Ki-21-IIb Sally x 27
Ki-43-IIIa Oscar x 18
Ki-48-IIa Lily x 31

Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-21-IIa Sally: 2 damaged
Ki-21-IIa Sally: 1 destroyed by flak
Ki-21-IIb Sally: 1 damaged
Ki-48-IIa Lily: 2 damaged

Aircraft Attacking:
26 x Ki-21-IIa Sally bombing from 10000 feet
Ground Attack: 4 x 250 kg GP Bomb

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Morning Air attack on 2nd Area Army, at 59,42 (Kalemyo)

Weather in hex: Thunderstorms

Raid detected at 30 NM, estimated altitude 11,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 11 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M5c Zero x 11
A6M8 Zero x 10
Ki-43-IIIa Oscar x 18

Allied aircraft
Wellington B.X x 16

No Japanese losses

Allied aircraft losses
Wellington B.X: 10 destroyed, 1 damaged

Aircraft Attacking:
16 x Wellington B.X bombing from 8000 feet
Ground Attack: 8 x 500 lb GP Bomb

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Morning Air attack on 55th Division, at 59,42 (Kalemyo)

Weather in hex: Thunderstorms

Raid detected at 39 NM, estimated altitude 9,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 10 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M5c Zero x 2
A6M8 Zero x 1
Ki-43-IIIa Oscar x 2

Allied aircraft
B-25C Mitchell x 26
B-25D1 Mitchell x 16

No Japanese losses

Allied aircraft losses
B-25C Mitchell: 2 damaged
B-25D1 Mitchell: 3 damaged

Japanese ground losses:
30 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 2 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 1 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled

Aircraft Attacking:
16 x B-25D1 Mitchell bombing from 8000 feet
Ground Attack: 6 x 500 lb GP Bomb

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Ground combat at 76,47 (near Chungking)

Japanese Shock attack

Attacking force 22212 troops, 427 guns, 1551 vehicles, Assault Value = 966

Defending force 39645 troops, 54 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 789

Japanese adjusted assault: 1030

Allied adjusted defense: 340

Japanese assault odds: 3 to 1

Combat modifiers
Defender: terrain(+), leaders(+), morale(-), experience(-), supply(-)
Attacker: shock(+)

Japanese ground losses:
1148 casualties reported
Squads: 16 destroyed, 65 disabled
Non Combat: 4 destroyed, 49 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 28 disabled
Guns lost 18 (1 destroyed, 17 disabled)
Vehicles lost 71 (3 destroyed, 68 disabled)

Allied ground losses:
11544 casualties reported
Squads: 381 destroyed, 10 disabled
Non Combat: 399 destroyed, 20 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Guns lost 5 (5 destroyed, 0 disabled)
Units retreated 9

Defeated Allied Units Retreating!

Assaulting units:
1st Tank Division
3rd Tank Division
23rd Tank Regiment
9th Tank Regiment
Guards Tank Division
11th Ind.Art.Mortar Battalion
6th Ind.Hvy.Art. Battalion
4th Ind.Hvy.Art. Battalion
Tonei Hvy Gun Regiment
12th Ind.Art.Mortar Battalion
5th Medium Field Artillery Regiment

Defending units:
56th Chinese Corps
96th Chinese Corps
34th Chinese Corps
76th Chinese Corps
28th Chinese Corps
8th Chinese Corps
4th Chinese Cavalry Corps
11th Group Army
13th Chinese Base Force

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Ground combat at Kalemyo (59,42)

Allied Deliberate attack

Attacking force 20226 troops, 290 guns, 1097 vehicles, Assault Value = 823

Defending force 18974 troops, 300 guns, 202 vehicles, Assault Value = 328

Allied adjusted assault: 392

Japanese adjusted defense: 322

Allied assault odds: 1 to 1 (fort level 1)

Allied Assault reduces fortifications to 0

Combat modifiers
Defender: terrain(+), preparation(-), supply(-)
Attacker:

Japanese ground losses:
671 casualties reported
Squads: 5 destroyed, 58 disabled
Non Combat: 5 destroyed, 42 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 6 disabled
Guns lost 77 (39 destroyed, 38 disabled)
Vehicles lost 21 (3 destroyed, 18 disabled)

Allied ground losses:
255 casualties reported
Squads: 3 destroyed, 16 disabled
Non Combat: 1 destroyed, 12 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 5 disabled
Vehicles lost 32 (3 destroyed, 29 disabled)

Assaulting units:
3rd Marine Division
762nd Tank Battalion
194th Tank Battalion
754th Tank Battalion
150th RAC Regiment
627th Tank Destroyer Battalion
3rd Carabiniers Regiment
50th Tank Brigade
2nd Hyderabad Base Force
III Indian Corps
2/1st Med Regiment
IV Indian Corps
6th Medium Regiment
134th Field Artillery Battalion
183rd Field Artillery Battalion
1st West African AA Regiment

Defending units:
55th Division
1st RF Gun Battalion
36th Field AA Battalion
2nd Area Army
2nd Ind.AA Gun Co
2nd RF Gun Battalion
1st Art.Mortar Regiment
41st Air Defense AA Battalion
31st Ind.AA Gun Co
6th Air Defense AA Regiment
54th Field AA Battalion
12th Ind. AA Battalion

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AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR July 21, 43
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ASW attack near Finschhafen at 100,126

Japanese Ships
SSX Ha-26, hits 13, on fire, heavy damage

Allied Ships
xAKL Schouten
PC Haida

SSX Ha-26 is sighted by escort
Ha-26 bottoming out ....


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TF 417 encounters mine field at Finschhafen (100,126) - Coastal Guns Fire Back!

Allied Ships
YMS-96, Shell hits 4, heavy fires, heavy damage

Combined 8th SNLF firing at YMS-96
YMS-96 firing at Combined 8th SNLF

1 mine cleared

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Ground combat at Buin (109,131)

Allied Deliberate attack

Attacking force 12191 troops, 250 guns, 163 vehicles, Assault Value = 455

Defending force 7126 troops, 56 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 193

Allied adjusted assault: 544

Japanese adjusted defense: 711

Allied assault odds: 1 to 2 (fort level 4)

Combat modifiers
Defender: terrain(+), forts(+), disruption(-), experience(-)
Attacker:

Japanese ground losses:
405 casualties reported
Squads: 1 destroyed, 29 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 1 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 1 disabled

Allied ground losses:
104 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 15 disabled
Non Combat: 1 destroyed, 1 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled

Assaulting units:
32nd Infantry Division
2nd Marine Regiment
147th Field Artillery Battalion
131st Field Artillery Battalion
97th Field Artillery Battalion

Defending units:
18th Garrison Unit
46th Naval Guard Unit
42nd JNAF AF Unit
44th JNAF AF Unit
45th JNAF AF Unit


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Ground combat at Kwajalein Island (132,115)

Allied Deliberate attack

Attacking force 4478 troops, 55 guns, 31 vehicles, Assault Value = 105

Defending force 3948 troops, 49 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 61

Allied adjusted assault: 10

Japanese adjusted defense: 50

Allied assault odds: 1 to 5 (fort level 3)

Combat modifiers
Defender: disruption(-), experience(-)
Attacker: fatigue(-)

Japanese ground losses:
102 casualties reported
Squads: 4 destroyed, 1 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 4 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Guns lost 2 (1 destroyed, 1 disabled)

Allied ground losses:
847 casualties reported
Squads: 10 destroyed, 106 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 8 disabled
Engineers: 1 destroyed, 11 disabled
Guns lost 22 (2 destroyed, 20 disabled)
Vehicles lost 1 (1 destroyed, 0 disabled)

Assaulting units:
37th (Sep) Infantry Regiment
110th Cmbt Engineer Battalion
1/542nd Boat&Shore Engineer Battalion

Defending units:
Maizuru 2nd SNLF
44th Naval Guard Unit
6th Fleet
Nimur Naval Fortress
Kwajalein Base Force

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Ground combat at Kalemyo (59,42)

Allied Deliberate attack

Attacking force 21426 troops, 303 guns, 1098 vehicles, Assault Value = 789

Defending force 5193 troops, 162 guns, 196 vehicles, Assault Value = 11

Allied adjusted assault: 349

Japanese adjusted defense: 73

Allied assault odds: 4 to 1 (fort level 0)

Allied forces CAPTURE Kalemyo !!!

Combat modifiers
Defender: terrain(+), preparation(-), experience(-), supply(-)
Attacker:

Japanese ground losses:
731 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Non Combat: 211 destroyed, 5 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Guns lost 144 (143 destroyed, 1 disabled)
Vehicles lost 201 (201 destroyed, 0 disabled)
Units retreated 8
Units destroyed 1

Allied ground losses:
42 casualties reported
Squads: 1 destroyed, 4 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 4 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled

Defeated Japanese Units Retreating!

Assaulting units:
762nd Tank Battalion
627th Tank Destroyer Battalion
3rd Marine Division
3rd Carabiniers Regiment
754th Tank Battalion
194th Tank Battalion
150th RAC Regiment
50th Tank Brigade
6th Medium Regiment
III Indian Corps
134th Field Artillery Battalion
2nd Hyderabad Base Force
183rd Field Artillery Battalion
IV Indian Corps
2/1st Med Regiment
1st West African AA Regiment

Defending units:
1st Art.Mortar Regiment
31st Ind.AA Gun Co
36th Field AA Battalion
2nd Area Army
2nd Ind.AA Gun Co
2nd RF Gun Battalion
41st Air Defense AA Battalion
6th Air Defense AA Regiment
54th Field AA Battalion
1st RF Gun Battalion
12th Ind. AA Battalion



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AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR July 22, 43
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Morning Air attack on Lae , at 99,126

Weather in hex: Light rain

Raid spotted at 22 NM, estimated altitude 29,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 6 minutes

Japanese aircraft
N1K1-J George x 40

Allied aircraft
Kittyhawk III x 8
Spitfire Vc Trop x 16
Kittyhawk III x 12
P-38G Lightning x 14

Japanese aircraft losses
N1K1-J George: 2 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
Kittyhawk III: 3 destroyed
Spitfire Vc Trop: 2 destroyed
Kittyhawk III: 3 destroyed
P-38G Lightning: 4 destroyed

Aircraft Attacking:
5 x N1K1-J George sweeping at 25000 feet

CAP engaged:
No.18 Sqn RNZAF with Kittyhawk III (0 airborne, 4 on standby, 6 scrambling)
2 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 25000
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 27 minutes
No.79 Sqn RAAF with Spitfire Vc Trop (0 airborne, 6 on standby, 8 scrambling)
2 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 25000
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 23 minutes
No.82 Sqn RAAF with Kittyhawk III (0 airborne, 6 on standby, 0 scrambling)
2 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 25000
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 18 minutes
8th FG/80th FS with P-38G Lightning (0 airborne, 10 on standby, 0 scrambling)
4 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 25000
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 15 minutes

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Ground combat at Buin (109,131)

Allied Bombardment attack

Attacking force 468 troops, 51 guns, 39 vehicles, Assault Value = 449

Defending force 6833 troops, 55 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 162

Japanese ground losses:
13 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 1 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled

Assaulting units:
32nd Infantry Division
2nd Marine Regiment
147th Field Artillery Battalion
131st Field Artillery Battalion
97th Field Artillery Battalion

Defending units:
18th Garrison Unit
46th Naval Guard Unit
42nd JNAF AF Unit
44th JNAF AF Unit
45th JNAF AF Unit
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[font="Trebuchet MS"]Overall, not too terrible, but the Georges sure had their way with the Spits and Kittyhawks. Makes sense in this mod as they're 30-40mph faster than those planes. [/font]

Rise of the Lurker [8D]

Having just finished Gamble's Rabaul trilogy, I noted several things that I wish WitP AE could model. I mention this based on recent comments several people discussed about the Marshal Islands (need to conquer the entire chain) and fighter observations in your game and many others.

1. The Japanese Reisen was still a very capable plane through much of 1943 in the hands of a skilled pilot. It was a very good match to the P-38 and to a lesser extent the F6F and F4U. I think this models fairly well in the game at this stage.
2. The Japanese were defeated at Rabaul (and elsewhere) for a variety of reasons - pilot and crew illness, lack of aircraft service and parts, US submarine interdiction, and declining morale all played huge roles. Allied pilots and planes were never vastly superior to the Japanese, BUT Allied logistics and replacements were a deciding factor.
3. Japanese attrition losses were poorly trained in relation to their American counterparts.
4. Japan made large quantities of replacement planes but lack of transport logistics, and lack of ground-staff to service, UN-crate, and assemble new planes was another critical factor.

I think the game doesn't portray #2-4 well.

I do not for a moment consider myself an Allied fan, but I find it illogical to allow Japan has the capability (foresight) to build better planes early and escorts without some Allied counter. The Europe first strategy initially was 90% Europe and 10% Japan; this was increased to around 70/30 during the Solomons/NG campaign. If Japan had prevailed at Midway or Guadalcanal, the Allies would have needed to react accordingly.

Re: the resilience of the Japanese on Kwajalein, is it possible he is bringing in replacement troops via Mavis/Emily transport?
The Marshalls are ideal for operation of this kind of air bridge.

Strangely this portion deleted in the first post..so to continue...

I don't consider myself an Allied fan in the game, but I don't find it logical to allow Japan a broad capability (foresight) to build better planes early as well as many other perks without some Allied counter. The Europe first strategy initially was ninety percent Europe and ten percent Japan; this was increased to around seventy to thirty during the mid-Solomons/NG campaign. If Japan had prevailed at Midway or Guadalcanal, the Allies would have needed to react accordingly, Pearl Harbor was too strong an incentive for the Americans to end the fight. Unfortunately the Allies don't have this luxury of addressing worse than historical performance in this game. Historically the Allies were initially hampered by poor leadership and tactics; their tactics improved but the deciding factor was logistics, and quantities of materials produced. This flood of materials ultimately overwhelmed the Japanese when coupled with attrition of the Japanese merchant fleet and eventual destruction of Japan's industry. Sadly game mechanics lead to the Allied pursuit of campaigns in the DEI and the Asian main-land to deny assets to the Japanese at their production point rather than during their transit. Allied policy during the war was never to get embroiled on the continent as the goal was never to face the bulk of the Japanese army; the limited interventions in the DEI during 1945 were exactly that - limited. Consider Japan had over seven million men under arms in 1945; they had around 2.5 million men in 1941 to 42. Thirty years later, American attempts to fight in Vietnam proved the insanity of fighting a land war against an endlessly replenishing Army. Japan was a Naval power in the pacific, a Military power on land and a mercantile state that needed its merchant fleet to bring resources home. Destruction of Japanese naval and merchant marine forces as principal doctrine went back for decades in American planning with strategic bombing a relatively new concept.

All of that stated, Obvert is doing a great job against a very skilled Japanese opponent in a game that does not favor Allied victory in such circumstances.

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

Re: the resilience of the Japanese on Kwajalein, is it possible he is bringing in replacement troops via Mavis/Emily transport?
The Marshalls are ideal for operation of this kind of air bridge.

I've considered that he could do this ( I do it extensively as Japan) but the risk is that then you lose twice as many troops for not much more gain. I think Nick is pragmatic in his defense so far. There are rules.

The rules state that he will not put too much too far forward even to slow the Allied movement there when the opportunity arises. CentPac is too far forward for him and as others have stated, already a lost cause. I'm moving around Kwajalein/Roi-Namur even as I battle for them. If anything I would guess he's pulling a few troops out.

ORIGINAL: TheGreatDebate

Strangely this portion deleted in the first post..so to continue...

I don't consider myself an Allied fan in the game, but I don't find it logical to allow Japan a broad capability (foresight) to build better planes early as well as many other perks without some Allied counter. The Europe first strategy initially was ninety percent Europe and ten percent Japan; this was increased to around seventy to thirty during the mid-Solomons/NG campaign. If Japan had prevailed at Midway or Guadalcanal, the Allies would have needed to react accordingly, Pearl Harbor was too strong an incentive for the Americans to end the fight. Unfortunately the Allies don't have this luxury of addressing worse than historical performance in this game. Historically the Allies were initially hampered by poor leadership and tactics; their tactics improved but the deciding factor was logistics, and quantities of materials produced. This flood of materials ultimately overwhelmed the Japanese when coupled with attrition of the Japanese merchant fleet and eventual destruction of Japan's industry. Sadly game mechanics lead to the Allied pursuit of campaigns in the DEI and the Asian main-land to deny assets to the Japanese at their production point rather than during their transit. Allied policy during the war was never to get embroiled on the continent as the goal was never to face the bulk of the Japanese army; the limited interventions in the DEI during 1945 were exactly that - limited. Consider Japan had over seven million men under arms in 1945; they had around 2.5 million men in 1941 to 42. Thirty years later, American attempts to fight in Vietnam proved the insanity of fighting a land war against an endlessly replenishing Army. Japan was a Naval power in the pacific, a Military power on land and a mercantile state that needed its merchant fleet to bring resources home. Destruction of Japanese naval and merchant marine forces as principal doctrine went back for decades in American planning with strategic bombing a relatively new concept.

All of that stated, Obvert is doing a great job against a very skilled Japanese opponent in a game that does not favor Allied victory in such circumstances.

All of your points are very good and valid. You even miss a few like the Volcanic dust that plagued engines at Vanukanau airfield at Rabaul and the lack of good radar/spotting networks (at least early on) to warn of incoming raids, their lack of good aircraft dispersal at many airfields plus the inflexible doctrine that pushed them to keep sending in replacements to airfields that were obviously untenable after the Allies gained air superiority.

Add to that the coast watchers and other warning networks in place for the Allies plus the increasing native resentment of the Japanese in the entire Solomons/New Britain/New Guinea areas and the Japanese were fighting too many types of battles too far from home to find success.

It is different in game, but I think we accept this as it's a greater challenge. It makes playing Japan more tenable for the years it takes to play this game, and it also forces the Allies to play smart, not just rip through with no fear of losing anything due to the weight of stuff arriving (at least before 44).

Political and colonial interests are also not portrayed in game, and those might have had more to do with the Allies not landing in Sumatra or Java in the war, although it certainly would have led to some logistical difficulties in reality as well.

All together this is a very fun ride, and since Nick has agreed to playing PDU-off (with the caveat of the extra troops and air groups of Scen 30), and is loving it, I'm fine with the differences to real world capabilities. I don't play for simulation, but I do like to imagine that I'm dealing with the same kinds of problems as the commanders faced then. They were pretty good. Can I get close to what they accomplished? [:)]

ORIGINAL: TheGreatDebate

Rise of the Lurker [8D]

Having just finished Gamble's Rabaul trilogy, I noted several things that I wish WitP AE could model. I mention this based on recent comments several people discussed about the Marshal Islands (need to conquer the entire chain) and fighter observations in your game and many others.

1. The Japanese Reisen was still a very capable plane through much of 1943 in the hands of a skilled pilot. It was a very good match to the P-38 and to a lesser extent the F6F and F4U. I think this models fairly well in the game at this stage.
2. The Japanese were defeated at Rabaul (and elsewhere) for a variety of reasons - pilot and crew illness, lack of aircraft service and parts, US submarine interdiction, and declining morale all played huge roles. Allied pilots and planes were never vastly superior to the Japanese, BUT Allied logistics and replacements were a deciding factor.
3. Japanese attrition losses were poorly trained in relation to their American counterparts.
4. Japan made large quantities of replacement planes but lack of transport logistics, and lack of ground-staff to service, UN-crate, and assemble new planes was another critical factor.

I think the game doesn't portray #2-4 well.

I do not for a moment consider myself an Allied fan, but I find it illogical to allow Japan has the capability (foresight) to build better planes early and escorts without some Allied counter. The Europe first strategy initially was 90% Europe and 10% Japan; this was increased to around 70/30 during the Solomons/NG campaign. If Japan had prevailed at Midway or Guadalcanal, the Allies would have needed to react accordingly.

PS - This may be a repeat for you after the Rabaul trilogy, but I'm reading "Fortress Over the Pacific" right now and it's very detailed and revealing of the problems the Allies faced as well in terms of logistics and operations, not all of which are mirrored in game.

It does point out though that the Fortress was just that; a castle in the sky that was perilous for a Japanese pilot to attempt an attack on. yes, they were shot down, but nearly every encounter includes a tally of destroyed zeros, and in many of those encounters all of the B-17s made it home. The real problem was getting enough to the point of attack due to the lack of parts, insufficient ground crews and facilities (at least up until mid-43) and horrible weather conditions.

I suspect Japan was wise to know their limitations and stick to radial engines. There are merits to both radial and water cooled engines but the Japanese logistics system simply could not support the increased maintenance of water cooled power plants. The Tony is early war exception. good plane, but maintenance kept many on the ground

[font="Times New Roman"]July 23 - 25, 1943[/font]

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[font="Microsoft Sans Serif"]SO PAC: [/font] This was a crazy few days. First the Marines turn the advantage decidedly to the Allies at buin and the base is captured in a 6:1 attack. Base forces and support move in and land over the next few days, but ...

... Nick goes all in to hit them. This actually looks worse than it is for the Allies, just by chance, and I feel pretty good about the results. The aerial assault hits a TF that is mostly small Dutch caps worth 2 points each carrying an Aviation Engineer battalion. If there is one thing the Allies can afford to lose it's engineers!! [:D]

Luckily the entire base force had landed and much of the Marine Defense battalion. So now the base is repairing, some damaged ships are disbanded in the port, and CAP is moving into place to protect the base. On the day the Japanese lose over 190 planes according to reports, and that means we also have a bunch of new aces.

I'm loading up looking for an opportunity to land at Torokina now. He still has a large naval presence at Rabaul, but I have some ideas about that. [:)]

[font="Microsoft Sans Serif"]INDIA: [/font] Nick hits the reinforcements for Addu with 60+ Bettys!! Yikes. I didn't think to put CAP here yet, but he was bold and we failed to make him pay a price. Le Triomphant will make it, but two xAPs will not. Troops are saved by the other ships, which is nice.

Getting some supply into Chittagong and the area by sea now.

[font="Microsoft Sans Serif"]CENT PAC: [/font] Kwajalein is hit hard from the air. Troops will land and hopefully this time they'll get the base first try after some BBs bombard. I've got one embedded and three in a separate bombardment TF.

[font="Microsoft Sans Serif"]CHINA: [/font] The Chinese are getting pushed all over now, and hopefully I can still retreat a bunch to the NW. Wenchow receives an attack and the defense does well to injure the Japanese, but only lots of disabledments.

[font="Microsoft Sans Serif"]SIGINT:[/font] Interesting. I'l bet this is heading to the Marianas or to the Kuriles. Oh, wait, lookie here!

It changed destination already, so at least I can vector subs to the general area.

Also, another ship report, this time a CL in Darwin port. To much CAP and not enough escort range to hit it though.

[font="Trebuchet MS"]31/12th Division is loaded on AK Hirokawa Maru moving to Tokyo.-24th
49/12th Division is loaded on a Ehime Cargo class xAK moving to Tokyo.

8/12th Division is loaded on a Yusen S class AK moving to Biak.
43/12th Division is loaded on xAP Kamakura Maru moving to Biak.
-24th[/font]-25th

[font="Trebuchet MS"]--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR July 23, 43
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Night Naval bombardment of Buin at 109,131

Allied Ships
CL Columbia
CL Nashville
CL Honolulu
DD Balch
DD McCall
DD Woodworth
DD Waller
DD Chevalier

Japanese ground losses:
520 casualties reported
Squads: 1 destroyed, 4 disabled
Non Combat: 13 destroyed, 15 disabled
Engineers: 9 destroyed, 3 disabled

Airbase hits 8
Airbase supply hits 5
Runway hits 62
Port hits 5
Port supply hits 1

SOC-1 Seagull acting as spotter for CL Columbia
CL Columbia firing at Buin

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Naval bombardment of Buin at 109,131

Allied Ships
BB Massachusetts
BB Indiana
DD Stanly
DD Jenkins
DD Eaton
DD Cony
DD Conway
DD Bache
DD Abbot
DD Fletcher

Japanese ground losses:
250 casualties reported
Squads: 2 destroyed, 4 disabled
Non Combat: 11 destroyed, 5 disabled
Engineers: 1 destroyed, 0 disabled
Guns lost 1 (1 destroyed, 0 disabled)

Airbase hits 9
Airbase supply hits 1
Runway hits 11
Port hits 2
Port supply hits 2

BB Massachusetts firing at 18th Garrison Unit
BB Indiana firing at Buin

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on Buin , at 109,131

Weather in hex: Severe storms

Raid detected at 38 NM, estimated altitude 12,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 11 minutes

Allied aircraft
Spitfire Vc Trop x 8
B-17E Fortress x 36
B-24D1 Liberator x 3
P-38G Lightning x 12
P-39D Airacobra x 18
P-40E Warhawk x 25
F4F-4 Wildcat x 7

No Allied losses

Japanese ground losses:
7 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Non Combat: 1 destroyed, 0 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled

Airbase hits 5
Airbase supply hits 1
Runway hits 17

Aircraft Attacking:
12 x B-17E Fortress bombing from 8000 feet
Airfield Attack: 8 x 500 lb GP Bomb

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ground combat at 77,47 (near Chungking)

Japanese Deliberate attack

Attacking force 23008 troops, 438 guns, 1866 vehicles, Assault Value = 1053

Defending force 49542 troops, 85 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 881

Japanese adjusted assault: 758

Allied adjusted defense: 253

Japanese assault odds: 2 to 1

Combat modifiers
Defender: terrain(+), disruption(-), experience(-), supply(-)
Attacker:

Japanese ground losses:
422 casualties reported
Squads: 1 destroyed, 35 disabled
Non Combat: 4 destroyed, 11 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 11 disabled
Vehicles lost 22 (2 destroyed, 20 disabled)

Allied ground losses:
13894 casualties reported
Squads: 373 destroyed, 111 disabled
Non Combat: 567 destroyed, 38 disabled
Engineers: 2 destroyed, 2 disabled
Guns lost 7 (6 destroyed, 1 disabled)
Units retreated 12

Defeated Allied Units Retreating!

Assaulting units:
7th Ind.Tank Brigade
23rd Tank Regiment
1st Tank Division
3rd Tank Division
9th Tank Regiment
11th Tank Regiment
4th Tank Regiment
Guards Tank Division
4th Ind.Hvy.Art. Battalion
12th Ind.Art.Mortar Battalion
11th Ind.Art.Mortar Battalion
Tonei Hvy Gun Regiment
6th Ind.Hvy.Art. Battalion
5th Medium Field Artillery Regiment

Defending units:
28th Chinese Corps
76th Chinese Corps
54th Chinese Corps
34th Chinese Corps
1st New Chinese Corps
8th Chinese Corps
96th Chinese Corps
86th Chinese Corps
4th Chinese Cavalry Corps
Y' Force
5th War Area
Central Reserve

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ground combat at Buin (109,131)

Allied Deliberate attack

Attacking force 16359 troops, 291 guns, 177 vehicles, Assault Value = 450

Defending force 6076 troops, 55 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 150

Allied adjusted assault: 790

Japanese adjusted defense: 123

Allied assault odds: 6 to 1 (fort level 4)

Allied forces CAPTURE Buin !!!

Combat modifiers
Defender: terrain(+), forts(+), disruption(-), experience(-)
Attacker:

Japanese ground losses:
1606 casualties reported
Squads: 56 destroyed, 19 disabled
Non Combat: 85 destroyed, 5 disabled
Engineers: 17 destroyed, 0 disabled
Guns lost 16 (13 destroyed, 3 disabled)
Units retreated 5

Allied ground losses:
271 casualties reported
Squads: 3 destroyed, 36 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 7 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 1 disabled

Defeated Japanese Units Retreating!

Assaulting units:
32nd Infantry Division
2nd Marine Regiment
147th Field Artillery Battalion
131st Field Artillery Battalion
97th Field Artillery Battalion

Defending units:
18th Garrison Unit
46th Naval Guard Unit
44th JNAF AF Unit
42nd JNAF AF Unit
45th JNAF AF Unit

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ground combat at Finschhafen (100,126)

Allied Bombardment attack

Attacking force 7819 troops, 86 guns, 29 vehicles, Assault Value = 409

Defending force 21208 troops, 303 guns, 73 vehicles, Assault Value = 562

Allied ground losses:
107 casualties reported
Squads: 3 destroyed, 7 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 2 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled

Assaulting units:
138th(Sep) Infantry Regiment
1st Marine Regiment
7th Marine Regiment

Defending units:
Maizuru 3rd SNLF
1st Guards Division
Combined 8th SNLF
Botanko Hvy Gun Regiment
15th AA Regiment
51st Base Force
107th JAAF AF Bn /1
9th Field Const Bn /1

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR July 24, 43
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Afternoon Air attack on TF, near Addu at 16,52

Weather in hex: Overcast

Raid spotted at 20 NM, estimated altitude 14,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 7 minutes

Japanese aircraft
G3M3 Nell x 31
G4M1 Betty x 32

Japanese aircraft losses
G4M1 Betty: 4 damaged
G4M1 Betty: 1 destroyed by flak

Allied Ships
DD Thracian
DD Le Triomphant, Torpedo hits 1, heavy damage
xAP Takliwa, Torpedo hits 2, and is sunk
xAP Chilka, Torpedo hits 1, on fire, heavy damage
xAP Talma
xAP Khedive Ismail, Torpedo hits 1, on fire

Allied ground losses:
177 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Non Combat: 11 destroyed, 12 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Vehicles lost 8 (4 destroyed, 4 disabled)

Aircraft Attacking:
31 x G3M3 Nell launching torpedoes at 200 feet
Naval Attack: 1 x 45cm Type 91 Torp
31 x G4M1 Betty launching torpedoes at 200 feet
Naval Attack: 1 x 45cm Type 91 Torp


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ground combat at Wenchow (89,58)

Japanese Deliberate attack

Attacking force 33692 troops, 300 guns, 110 vehicles, Assault Value = 1057

Defending force 26259 troops, 98 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 797

Japanese adjusted assault: 1569

Allied adjusted defense: 2512

Japanese assault odds: 1 to 2 (fort level 3)

Combat modifiers
Defender: terrain(+), forts(+), disruption(-), experience(-)
supply(-)
Attacker:

Japanese ground losses:
1635 casualties reported
Squads: 8 destroyed, 217 disabled
Non Combat: 1 destroyed, 19 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 27 disabled

Allied ground losses:
1795 casualties reported
Squads: 7 destroyed, 146 disabled
Non Combat: 31 destroyed, 38 disabled
Engineers: 10 destroyed, 7 disabled
Guns lost 7 (1 destroyed, 6 disabled)

Assaulting units:
58th Division
8th Ind Engineer Regiment
70th Division
65th Division
39th Ind Engineer Regiment
23rd Medium Field Artillery Regiment
11th Army
13th Ind.Art.Mortar Battalion
20th Medium Field Artillery Regiment
2nd Ind.Hvy.Art. Battalion
21st Medium Field Artillery Battalion

Defending units:
100th Chinese Corps
88th Chinese Corps
16th Construction Regiment
25th Group Army
3rd War Area
14th Chinese Base Force

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR July 25, 43
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Time Surface Combat, near Finschhafen at 100,126, Range 1,000 Yards

Japanese Ships
LB-125
LB-126, Shell hits 4
LB-127, Shell hits 1
LB-128, Shell hits 2
LB-129
LB-130
LB-131, Shell hits 1
LB-132, Shell hits 1
LB-133, Shell hits 6
LB-134, Shell hits 8, on fire
LB-135, Shell hits 7
LB-501, Shell hits 27

Allied Ships
PT-65
PT-104
PT-105
PT-108
PT-109
PT-112

Poor visibility due to Thunderstorms
Maximum visibility in Thunderstorms: 1,000 yards

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on Buin , at 109,131

Weather in hex: Moderate rain

Raid detected at 38 NM, estimated altitude 29,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 9 minutes

Japanese aircraft
Ki-84a Frank x 32

Allied aircraft
Spitfire Vc Trop x 7
P-38G Lightning x 6
P-39D Airacobra x 19
F4F-4 Wildcat x 26
F4U-1 Corsair x 19
F6F-3 Hellcat x 13

Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-84a Frank: 4 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
P-39D Airacobra: 3 destroyed
F4F-4 Wildcat: 5 destroyed
F4U-1 Corsair: 2 destroyed

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on TF, near Buin at 109,131

Weather in hex: Moderate rain

Raid detected at 119 NM, estimated altitude 12,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 30 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M5 Zero x 36
B6N1 Jill x 4
D4Y1 Judy x 65
Ki-43-IIb Oscar x 36

Allied aircraft
Spitfire Vc Trop x 6
P-38G Lightning x 5
P-39D Airacobra x 9
F4F-4 Wildcat x 10
F4U-1 Corsair x 16
F6F-3 Hellcat x 13

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M5 Zero: 16 destroyed
B6N1 Jill: 1 destroyed, 1 damaged
D4Y1 Judy: 3 destroyed, 5 damaged
Ki-43-IIb Oscar: 7 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
P-39D Airacobra: 1 destroyed

Allied Ships
xAP Van der Lijn, Bomb hits 5, and is sunk
xAP President Tyler, Bomb hits 1, on fire
PT-31
xAP Van Riebeek, Bomb hits 2, heavy fires, heavy damage
xAP Le Maire, Bomb hits 2, heavy fires, heavy damage
xAP Camphuys, Bomb hits 3, and is sunk
xAP Mijer, Bomb hits 5, and is sunk
xAP David W. Branch, Bomb hits 1, heavy fires
xAP Baranof, Bomb hits 2, heavy fires
xAP Van den Bosch
PC Yandra, Bomb hits 1, heavy fires, heavy damage
xAK Rajput, Bomb hits 3, heavy fires
xAK Wo Sang, Bomb hits 5, on fire, heavy damage
xAP Aleutian, Bomb hits 3, on fire, heavy damage
SC-744, Bomb hits 1, and is sunk
xAP Princess Elaine, Bomb hits 2, heavy fires, heavy damage

Allied ground losses:
1801 casualties reported
Squads: 15 destroyed, 4 disabled
Non Combat: 72 destroyed, 39 disabled
Engineers: 39 destroyed, 24 disabled
Guns lost 54 (41 destroyed, 13 disabled)
Vehicles lost 50 (34 destroyed, 16 disabled)

Aircraft Attacking:
16 x D4Y1 Judy releasing from 3000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 500 kg SAP Bomb

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on TF, near Buin at 109,131

Weather in hex: Moderate rain

Raid detected at 40 NM, estimated altitude 13,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 13 minutes

Japanese aircraft
B6N1 Jill x 36

Allied aircraft
Spitfire Vc Trop x 2
P-38G Lightning x 1
P-39D Airacobra x 5
F4F-4 Wildcat x 7
F4U-1 Corsair x 13
F6F-3 Hellcat x 13

Japanese aircraft losses
B6N1 Jill: 20 destroyed, 2 damaged

No Allied losses

Allied Ships
xAK Rajput, Torpedo hits 1, and is sunk
xAP David W. Branch, heavy fires

Aircraft Attacking:
3 x B6N1 Jill launching torpedoes at 200 feet
Naval Attack: 1 x 45cm Type 91 Torp

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on TF, near Buin at 109,131

Weather in hex: Moderate rain

Raid detected at 118 NM, estimated altitude 12,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 34 minutes

Japanese aircraft
Ki-48-IIb Lily x 47

Allied aircraft
P-38G Lightning x 1
P-39D Airacobra x 5
F4F-4 Wildcat x 6
F4U-1 Corsair x 8
F6F-3 Hellcat x 13

Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-48-IIb Lily: 8 destroyed, 10 damaged

No Allied losses

Allied Ships
PT-190
xAP Princess Elaine, Bomb hits 3, heavy fires, heavy damage
PT-219
xAP Van den Bosch
xAP Van Outhoorn
PT-220
xAK Wo Sang, heavy fires, heavy damage
xAP Van Rees, Bomb hits 2, heavy fires, heavy damage

Allied ground losses:
154 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 3 disabled
Non Combat: 3 destroyed, 14 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 1 disabled
Guns lost 7 (2 destroyed, 5 disabled)

Aircraft Attacking:
12 x Ki-48-IIb Lily releasing from 3000'
Naval Attack: 2 x 100 kg SAP Bomb

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Afternoon Air attack on TF, near Buin at 109,131

Weather in hex: Heavy rain

Raid detected at 87 NM, estimated altitude 10,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 22 minutes

Japanese aircraft
D4Y1 Judy x 32
Ki-43-IIb Oscar x 19

Allied aircraft
Spitfire Vc Trop x 6
P-38G Lightning x 5
P-39D Airacobra x 15
F4F-4 Wildcat x 25
F4U-1 Corsair x 16
F6F-3 Hellcat x 11

Japanese aircraft losses
D4Y1 Judy: 15 destroyed, 1 damaged
Ki-43-IIb Oscar: 7 destroyed

No Allied losses

Allied Ships
xAK Wo Sang, heavy fires, heavy damage
xAP Van Rees, heavy fires, heavy damage
xAP Van Outhoorn, Bomb hits 2, heavy fires, heavy damage

Allied ground losses:
70 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 2 disabled
Non Combat: 1 destroyed, 9 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Guns lost 5 (1 destroyed, 4 disabled)

Aircraft Attacking:
2 x D4Y1 Judy releasing from 3000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 500 kg SAP Bomb

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Afternoon Air attack on TF, near Buin at 109,131

Weather in hex: Heavy rain

Raid detected at 72 NM, estimated altitude 13,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 18 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M5 Zero x 4
D4Y1 Judy x 19

Allied aircraft
Spitfire Vc Trop x 6
P-38G Lightning x 5
P-39D Airacobra x 15
F4F-4 Wildcat x 22
F4U-1 Corsair x 12
F6F-3 Hellcat x 11

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M5 Zero: 2 destroyed
D4Y1 Judy: 7 destroyed, 1 damaged

No Allied losses

Allied Ships
xAP David W. Branch, heavy fires
xAP Aleutian, Bomb hits 1, heavy fires, heavy damage
xAP Baranof, Bomb hits 4, heavy fires, heavy damage

Aircraft Attacking:
3 x D4Y1 Judy releasing from 3000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 500 kg SAP Bomb

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------[/font]

---

---

[font="Trebuchet MS"]Lots of Judys, Jills and A6M5 downed. I have to remove the aces from the P-39 and Wildcat groups now before they get mauled as escorts or lower CAP during George sweeps! [:)][/font]

[font="Times New Roman"]Ship Losses[/font]

---

A few xAKs here worth some points, but nothing too bad. Still, I hate losing ships. I know it's inevitable though, and in this case both in VPs and in available lift for troops in the area, this is not too bad.

All those small Dutch xAPs are great for moving various engineer and BFs units around. They are always missed as you don't want to risk larger ones for this type of duty.

I think you can convert the 1750 ton capacity xAKLs to XAPs of 500/750 capacity. The biggest drawback is the 4000 nm range so until you get ops amongst a bunch of islands they are just a pain to keep fuelled.

ORIGINAL: obvert

[font="Times New Roman"]Ship Losses[/font]

---

A few xAKs here worth some points, but nothing too bad. Still, I hate losing ships. I know it's inevitable though, and in this case both in VPs and in available lift for troops in the area, this is not too bad.

Well worth it for the return on points for his planes alone. Even just the Judys...

ORIGINAL: ny59giants

All those small Dutch xAPs are great for moving various engineer and BFs units around. They are always missed as you don't want to risk larger ones for this type of duty.

Yep, and they unload quickly. Still have a few left!

I call it a draw.

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna



Well worth it for the return on points for his planes alone. Even just the Judys...

Bah, it shouldn't be thought in terms of points : Planes are overestimated compared with merchies.

ORIGINAL: veji1

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

Well worth it for the return on points for his planes alone. Even just the Judys...

Bah, it shouldn't be thought in terms of points : Planes are overestimated compared with merchies.

ORIGINAL: crsutton

I call it a draw.

It's been interesting to play for VPs and try to think of all engagements in that context in this game. I would normally have called the day a loss. Airframes are replaceable, ships are not and I hate losing troops on ships. The engineers did not get to the base and some large equipment like the Marine DP guns and motorized support didn't make it.

However, in some engagements where the Allies lost much more important assets in the war, those were considered strategic victories. So this is not just about men and materials, obviously.

This battle achieved what I needed here in a strategic sense. I landed a big base force, one engineer unit and most of a Marine Defense unit while losing some less important ships, some larger devices from the Marines and an engineer unit, plus 36 planes. Nick lost nearly two hundred planes and probably well over a hundred pilots. At the same time I lost 8 pilots while I gained enormous amounts of experience and skill in the other surviving fighter jocks.

Playing for VPs here is a look at that side of things. Lets assume reports are more or less correct.

Japanese losses;

191 airframes = 191 VPs
1 midget sub = 4 VPs
--------------------------

Total losses = 195 VPs

Allied losses;

36 airframes = 36 VPs
12 ships = 42 VPs
Aviation Eng Unit (74 devices)= 25 VPs
Marine Defense Unit (12 devices) = 4 VPs
--------------------------

Total losses = 107 VPs

So by the VPs it goes to the Allies decidedly. (Some of the next few turns do not) [;)]

ORIGINAL: obvert

ORIGINAL: veji1

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

Well worth it for the return on points for his planes alone. Even just the Judys...

Bah, it shouldn't be thought in terms of points : Planes are overestimated compared with merchies.

ORIGINAL: crsutton

I call it a draw.

It's been interesting to play for VPs and try to think of all engagements in that context in this game. I would normally have called the day a loss. Airframes are replaceable, ships are not and I hate losing troops on ships. The engineers did not get to the base and some large equipment like the Marine DP guns and motorized support didn't make it.

However, in some engagements where the Allies lost much more important assets in the war, those were considered strategic victories. So this is not just about men and materials, obviously.

This battle achieved what I needed here in a strategic sense. I landed a big base force, one engineer unit and most of a Marine Defense unit while losing some less important ships, some larger devices from the Marines and an engineer unit, plus 36 planes. Nick lost nearly two hundred planes and probably well over a hundred pilots. At the same time I lost 8 pilots while I gained enormous amounts of experience and skill in the other surviving fighter jocks.

Playing for VPs here is a look at that side of things. Lets assume reports are more or less correct.

Japanese losses;

191 airframes = 191 VPs
1 midget sub = 4 VPs
--------------------------

Total losses = 195 VPs

Allied losses;

36 airframes = 36 VPs
12 ships = 42 VPs
Aviation Eng Unit (74 devices)= 25 VPs
Marine Defense Unit (12 devices) = 4 VPs
--------------------------

Total losses = 107 VPs

So by the VPs it goes to the Allies decidedly. (Some of the next few turns do not) [;)]

This is pretty much my calculus. You need a 2:1 VP ratio at the end of the war. Under that lens, this engagement is a solid victory (regardless of other strategic objectives). You made almost 100 VPs' worth of progress towards autovictory. Yes, that's a drop in the bucket, but most days are. By my standards, +88 VPs on the day in one medium-size action that only involved merchants and planes is a pretty good day at this point in the war.

On the other hand, you can look at it as anything less than a 2:1 trade on any given day is working against your autovictory, but such a view isn't taking into account the fact that the Allied rate of VP gain will drastically increase the closer you get to Japan's shores - especially if you are able to start bombing industry.

On the other other hand, the 30 VPs you need to "make up" to make this a 2:1 trade can come mostly from building up that base that you just landed engineers at [;)].

Probably preaching to the choir here, but I did want to echo your sentiments. I do agree that planes are overvalued in terms of VPs, in general, but it was the numbers of planes involved here vs. type of ships lost that makes it a very good trade IMO. The only ships that it really hurt to lose were the 7, 8, and 10 VP ships.

I may be a minority in this, but I also think the disparity in accumulated pilot exp/skill increase for a turn like this is a kind of latent VP generator. It only requires more good airframes and more time to become actual VPs.

It also lets me take a few risks I wouldn't normally or make up for stupid mistakes like the one I made two turns later. [:)]

ORIGINAL: obvert

I may be a minority in this, but I also think the disparity in accumulated pilot exp/skill increase for a turn like this is a kind of latent VP generator. It only requires more good airframes and more time to become actual VPs.

It also lets me take a few risks I wouldn't normally or make pup for stupid mistakes like the one I made two turns later. [:)]

OK - enough foreplay - tell us about it![:D]