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Just have the US take over Plymouth (seeing as it already has Belfast) and have the RN forces base out of Liverpool, Scapa Flow and London.

ORIGINAL: composer99

Just have the US take over Plymouth (seeing as it already has Belfast) and have the RN forces base out of Liverpool, Scapa Flow and London.

It's not so much the ports I want (though that's nice), but the space to stack units and air power. Both the CW and the USA are going to end up with a lot of these, and the Southeast UK is already starting to get crowded.

On Moscow: there is a Stuka nearby. This means that the Russian airforce must leave Moscow, otherwise they risk getting killed on the ground. It doesn't matter if you leave one or two units, a fast calculation gives the Germans a 4-1 attack on Moscow when the two corps stay there, giving it a 80% opportunity of taking the hex if the ground strikes of the Stuka succeeds, with a 50% chanche of disorganisation. I would go for this attack with the Germans. Now: there are two possibilities:

- Ground Strike Mannerheim with the TB-3 under escort of the FTR. If the Ground strike succeeds, the German northern front comes to a halt. Desperate times means desperate measures. Also: almost the whole USSR airforce is now too close to the frontlines. If the turn is really going to be a long one, the lack of USSR forces means that they are likely to get overrun twice this turn. Especially the FTR's are short on range. It is better to use the airforce at Moscow now.
Or:
- Rebase the airforce in Moscow. This however also means that in the center one of the air units will be overrun and it than must rebase and might be overtaken later in the turn by the Germans...
In both cases I think the Moscow MIL stays in the city, I would withdraw the other units to the east.

If Mannerheim is ground struck, this will still mean the loss of Moscow, however, all other units can simply withdraw out of German supply range to a position where they can't be attacked without disorganising German units. They can even put more distance between the German forces and them by continuing to withdraw, making it more difficult for the German HQ's to catch up next turn.

I think I would do this. It isn't nice and it might end up with disaster, but the USSR is going to loose a FTR after all, since I don't think the USSR can withdraw all air units from the front this impulse...

ORIGINAL: Red Prince

And here's what's going down in Persia:

Well, we try the ground strike on Guderian, that's for sure.

There are only 2 dangers here:
1 - Guderian reorganizes units which then attack;
2 - the Germans end the turn and then go first again (!) next turn - with good weather of course.

#1 takes 2 impulses for the Axis to achieve, so we have another impulse to tweak the line for that possibility. But #2 needs to be dealt with immediately.

I haven't read Composer99's suggestion in detail, but I agree with it's primary thrust: shift the weight of the line to the east. From west to east I would put the following in the 4 hexes: 3-4 + 1-4; 8-5-4; 7-3 + 3-2; 4-3 + 5-3.

You'll notice that 2 of these units will be disorganized at the end of their movement. Zhukov is going to reorganize everyone in this theater at the end of this impulse and then be reorganized himself using the O-Chit during the next Allied impulse. Of course if the turn ends before then, so much the better.

The left side is now weak, but there's not much that can be done about that. Indeed, the whole line isn't as strong as we would like it to be.

All this is "fantasy" since I have no idea how many hexes in persia the axis controls, and how supply is traced by the axis there. I am just guessing that a well placed russian unit could wreck havoc with the supply.

ORIGINAL: Red Prince
I just counted it out, and there are no hexes in Persia that the ATR can reach for an Air Transport (by the way, it's 2 x 11 hexes, not 3 x 11 hexes. The first stretch is for the "pickup" and the 2nd is the return to base.

If the para starts stacked with the ATR it can move with the ATR to the "pickup site" then again to the "target hex" and again to the "return to base hex". Yes... the rules are weird

I was not thinking about this turn, but the turn after that. The Moscow bomber would rebase to krasnodar, and the ATR in krasnodar would rebase to a hex in persia (baku perhaps).
Next turn you could air-transport the para from krasnodar to Baku with ATR1 and then from Baku to the hex NE of the iraqi cav unit (providing it is still russian controlled) with ATR2. This would put the entire axis force OOS.... perhaps, or does it also trace supply through the rail from baghdad?

ORIGINAL: Red Prince
Yes, they are relying on the Japanese for supply, and even though they did a lot of damage last impulse, it's unlikely the Allies can clear the Arabian Sea (but they'll try).

I'm not sure what you mean by Germany leaving its HQ's behind. Unless the Soviets retreat 5-6 hexes each, the HQs of Germany are able to be right on the front lines, or just behind it.

"von Leeb" and "von Bock" are far enough behind the front to be able to react to any dangerous paradrop by the russians.

ORIGINAL: Red Prince

ORIGINAL: composer99

Just have the US take over Plymouth (seeing as it already has Belfast) and have the RN forces base out of Liverpool, Scapa Flow and London.

It's not so much the ports I want (though that's nice), but the space to stack units and air power. Both the CW and the USA are going to end up with a lot of these, and the Southeast UK is already starting to get crowded.

Crowded? Have you counted out the number of units you can put there? The US MIL and a HQ have to leave for the USSR this turn, so a couple of land units are leaving already. You can stack the complete US fleet in Plymouth and Belfast and the UK fleet in Liverpool. You have four minor ports in the area to put land units in too. That means a total of 14 corps/HQ's and 7 division in ports and more than 20 air units in ports alone. Ireland is a nuisance and it needs a garrison. I wouldn't bother. It is all about putting together good logistics in the UK/Northern Ireland.
Also: the Wallies need to be aggressive, to withdraw units from the frontlines in the USSR. Is the invasion force assembled in the UK? If so: start looking for doing nasty things to the Germans. How are the defenses of mainland Europe this moment?

ORIGINAL: Lothrim

All this is "fantasy" since I have no idea how many hexes in persia the axis controls, and how supply is traced by the axis there. I am just guessing that a well placed russian unit could wreck havoc with the supply.

ORIGINAL: Red Prince
I just counted it out, and there are no hexes in Persia that the ATR can reach for an Air Transport (by the way, it's 2 x 11 hexes, not 3 x 11 hexes. The first stretch is for the "pickup" and the 2nd is the return to base.

If the para starts stacked with the ATR it can move with the ATR to the "pickup site" then again to the "target hex" and again to the "return to base hex". Yes... the rules are weird

I was not thinking about this turn, but the turn after that. The Moscow bomber would rebase to krasnodar, and the ATR in krasnodar would rebase to a hex in persia (baku perhaps).
Next turn you could air-transport the para from krasnodar to Baku with ATR1 and then from Baku to the hex NE of the iraqi cav unit (providing it is still russian controlled) with ATR2. This would put the entire axis force OOS.... perhaps, or does it also trace supply through the rail from baghdad?

ORIGINAL: Red Prince
Yes, they are relying on the Japanese for supply, and even though they did a lot of damage last impulse, it's unlikely the Allies can clear the Arabian Sea (but they'll try).

I'm not sure what you mean by Germany leaving its HQ's behind. Unless the Soviets retreat 5-6 hexes each, the HQs of Germany are able to be right on the front lines, or just behind it.

"von Leeb" and "von Bock" are far enough behind the front to be able to react to any dangerous paradrop by the russians.

Two things:

1. I'm going to have to check to see that the Air Transport works correctly for this. I'm wondering if we've skipped the middle step, because I rarely use Air Transport, and when I do it is usually starting with the unit I want to transport.

2. By next turn, Persia will be liberated by Italy in all likelyhood, so there will be no Soviet controlled hexes available to do this. A Paradrop is a different story.

ORIGINAL: Centuur

ORIGINAL: Red Prince

ORIGINAL: composer99

Just have the US take over Plymouth (seeing as it already has Belfast) and have the RN forces base out of Liverpool, Scapa Flow and London.

It's not so much the ports I want (though that's nice), but the space to stack units and air power. Both the CW and the USA are going to end up with a lot of these, and the Southeast UK is already starting to get crowded.

Crowded? Have you counted out the number of units you can put there? The US MIL and a HQ have to leave for the USSR this turn, so a couple of land units are leaving already. You can stack the complete US fleet in Plymouth and Belfast and the UK fleet in Liverpool. You have four minor ports in the area to put land units in too. That means a total of 14 corps/HQ's and 7 division in ports and more than 20 air units in ports alone. Ireland is a nuisance and it needs a garrison. I wouldn't bother. It is all about putting together good logistics in the UK/Northern Ireland.
Also: the Wallies need to be aggressive, to withdraw units from the frontlines in the USSR. Is the invasion force assembled in the UK? If so: start looking for doing nasty things to the Germans. How are the defenses of mainland Europe this moment?

I need to remind you of two things here. Only the HQ is going to get to either Archangel or Murmansk this turn. The MIL can't get there. That's the first. The second is that a minor invasion force is assembled, but I can't create a "real" invasion force until next turn. Germans aren't coming off the lines this turn.

The Wallies are going to have many more than 20 air units not too long from now. They already have half that, at that doesn't include units still rebasing from the USA. I also have to leave room in some of these ports for CW CVP that need to come in and/or switch out from their CVs.
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Edit: Not to mention that air unit range is also a factor here.

The CW attempted 2 more Strat Bombing missions this impulse. The Germans aborted the first, but the second took out 1 Production Point.

As for the last chance attempt on Guderian . . . it looks like the Russians are going to have to deal with a revitalized German line in Persia.

Not hitting Guderian isn't a big concern right now; turn ending rolls are starting so the Germans might not get a chance to use those units once Guderian reorganizes them.

ORIGINAL: Red Prince

ORIGINAL: composer99

In my opinion:
- Every land unit in Moscow stays where it is & fights to the death.
- The stack south of Moscow should stick together and move to the Oka bend.
- The stack southwest of Ryazan should stick together and move to the hex the AA can reach
- The blitz stack in front of Voronezh moves to the forest hex just south of the Don, southeast of Voronezh
- HQ Koniev moves straigt back 3 hexes (to stay on the rail line).
- The 2 blitz units in the Don basin move to the hex 2 hexes east of Rostov behind the join of the Don & West Manych rivers

As for air units:
- the LND4 in Moscow rebases to just in front of Penza, where it can ground support both Moscow & Rostov as required
- the LND3 rebases either east to help form up a Volga/Ural front or south to help form up the Caucasus front
- likewise with the FTR2 near Voronezh

It won't work. Neither of our thoughts. The Stack with the AA needs to go into Voronezh (including the AA). Anything else it does is likely to leave it out of supply.

It's too bad that Zhukov is stacked with a Corps and not the MTN Division. If Moscow is going to fall, that means the Moscow MIL is going to be gone for good. It would have been nice to rail it to the Persian Front.

Looks like I can save 1 more factory. Maybe I should rail the Moscow MIL to Baku, so that Zhukov can reorganize 3 land units and a LND (so as not to "waste" any of his points. I don't know. Or, if I'm going to use the O-chit to reorg all HQs next impulse, I might as well Rail Koniev to a better (or at least different) position . . . perhaps.

ORIGINAL: Red Prince

Here's the main front, with flyouts. I haven't actually examined it yet for potential Soviet moves, so I'm not going to speculate at the moment.

Well, here's my idea:

The DB-3 flies at extended range for a ground strike on Mannerheim. The bomber returns to the forested rail hex under the T and U of Soviet Union on the map. Koniev reorganizes the bomber.

The DB-3F flies at extended range to ground strike von Leeb. It returns to base 10 hexes due east, where Koniev reorganizes it.

The 4-2 in Yaroslavl retreats 4 hexes due east.

The 2-6 MECH in Moscow retreats 4 hexes due east; it is joined by the 6-4 Siberian near Ryazan.

The other 2 land units in Moscow stay there.

The 2nd MECH moves 3 hexes east and 1 hex SE; it is joined by the 4th MECH coming up from Voronezh.

The AA moves to the fighter's hex. He is issued a set of prayer beads. When he dies, the fighter (if it hasn't flown a mission) will flee east. Regardless of whether he flies a mission or is overrun, he stays within range of Koniev, who reorganizes him.

The 2 Inf retreat 3 hexes east and 1 hex SE where they are joined by the 2-5 MECH. Koniev moves 2 hexes east and 1 NE (behind the Inf).

The Kharkov Mil moves one hex east. He is reorganized by Koniev.

The 7-6 armor retreats 1 hex east and 2 hexes SE and 1 hex east, where it is joined by the 1st MECH. The 8-5 moves to the hex 2 hexes east of Rostov.

The O-Chit reorganizes all 4 HQ's next Allied impulse if the turn lasts that long.

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

ORIGINAL: Red Prince

Here's the main front, with flyouts. I haven't actually examined it yet for potential Soviet moves, so I'm not going to speculate at the moment.

Well, here's my idea:

The DB-3 flies at extended range for a ground strike on Mannerheim. The bomber returns to the forested rail hex under the T and U of Soviet Union on the map. Koniev reorganizes the bomber.

The DB-3F flies at extended range to ground strike von Leeb. It returns to base 10 hexes due east, where Koniev reorganizes it.

The 4-2 in Yaroslavl retreats 4 hexes due east.

The 2-6 MECH in Moscow retreats 4 hexes due east; it is joined by the 6-4 Siberian near Ryazan.

The other 2 land units in Moscow stay there.

The 2nd MECH moves 3 hexes east and 1 hex SE; it is joined by the 4th MECH coming up from Voronezh.

The AA moves to the fighter's hex. He is issued a set of prayer beads. When he dies, the fighter (if it hasn't flown a mission) will flee east. Regardless of whether he flies a mission or is overrun, he stays within range of Koniev, who reorganizes him.

The 2 Inf retreat 3 hexes east and 1 hex SE where they are joined by the 2-5 MECH. Koniev moves 2 hexes east and 1 NE (behind the Inf).

The Kharkov Mil moves one hex east. He is reorganized by Koniev.

The 7-6 armor retreats 1 hex east and 2 hexes SE and 1 hex east, where it is joined by the 1st MECH. The 8-5 moves to the hex 2 hexes east of Rostov.

The O-Chit reorganizes all 4 HQ's next Allied impulse if the turn lasts that long.

Steve, you have Koniev reorganizing 7 points of units (6 for 3 air units, and 1 for the MIL)

ORIGINAL: Red Prince

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

ORIGINAL: Red Prince

Here's the main front, with flyouts. I haven't actually examined it yet for potential Soviet moves, so I'm not going to speculate at the moment.

Well, here's my idea:

The DB-3 flies at extended range for a ground strike on Mannerheim. The bomber returns to the forested rail hex under the T and U of Soviet Union on the map. Koniev reorganizes the bomber.

The DB-3F flies at extended range to ground strike von Leeb. It returns to base 10 hexes due east, where Koniev reorganizes it.

The 4-2 in Yaroslavl retreats 4 hexes due east.

The 2-6 MECH in Moscow retreats 4 hexes due east; it is joined by the 6-4 Siberian near Ryazan.

The other 2 land units in Moscow stay there.

The 2nd MECH moves 3 hexes east and 1 hex SE; it is joined by the 4th MECH coming up from Voronezh.

The AA moves to the fighter's hex. He is issued a set of prayer beads. When he dies, the fighter (if it hasn't flown a mission) will flee east. Regardless of whether he flies a mission or is overrun, he stays within range of Koniev, who reorganizes him.

The 2 Inf retreat 3 hexes east and 1 hex SE where they are joined by the 2-5 MECH. Koniev moves 2 hexes east and 1 NE (behind the Inf).

The Kharkov Mil moves one hex east. He is reorganized by Koniev.

The 7-6 armor retreats 1 hex east and 2 hexes SE and 1 hex east, where it is joined by the 1st MECH. The 8-5 moves to the hex 2 hexes east of Rostov.

The O-Chit reorganizes all 4 HQ's next Allied impulse if the turn lasts that long.

Steve, you have Koniev reorganizing 7 points of units (6 for 3 air units, and 1 for the MIL)

He is suppose to earn his keep - the slacker. The just use the 3 point Tact (DB-3F) to hit Mannerheim and reorganize the Kharkov Mil. The fighter flees to Saratov when it is overrun (it shouldn't fly a mission if it can help it). The ATR in Moscow rebases to the forest hex east of Penza. The DB-3 is going to be overrun and he should flee a whole lot of hexes to the east, just in case the turn goes on and on and on.

Steve: this means that the planes in Moscow are probably going to get ground striked by the Stuka... If that happens, that TB-3 is a sitting duck...

I would suggest groundstriking Mannerheim with the TB-3 and use the DB-F3 as front bomber on this attack too. The ground strike is going to be intercepted by the German FTR, so the Russian FTR flies too.

Also: why the sacrifice of a good INF in Moscow. The Germans are going to grab the city anyway. If the ground strike succeeds, I would suggest leaving only the MIL in Moscow. If it doesn't succeed, you might go for the 4-1 attack on Moscow with the two units, hoping to disorganise the Germans. I wouldn't...

ORIGINAL: Centuur

Steve: this means that the planes in Moscow are probably going to get ground striked by the Stuka... If that happens, that TB-3 is a sitting duck...

I would suggest groundstriking Mannerheim with the TB-3 and use the DB-F3 as front bomber on this attack too. The ground strike is going to be intercepted by the German FTR, so the Russian FTR flies too.

Also: why the sacrifice of a good INF in Moscow. The Germans are going to grab the city anyway. If the ground strike succeeds, I would suggest leaving only the MIL in Moscow. If it doesn't succeed, you might go for the 4-1 attack on Moscow with the two units, hoping to disorganise the Germans. I wouldn't...

If anything, it is the MIL that should flee. He can't be rebuilt once Moscow is taken.

ORIGINAL: Centuur

Steve: this means that the planes in Moscow are probably going to get ground striked by the Stuka... If that happens, that TB-3 is a sitting duck...

I would suggest groundstriking Mannerheim with the TB-3 and use the DB-F3 as front bomber on this attack too. The ground strike is going to be intercepted by the German FTR, so the Russian FTR flies too.

Also: why the sacrifice of a good INF in Moscow. The Germans are going to grab the city anyway. If the ground strike succeeds, I would suggest leaving only the MIL in Moscow. If it doesn't succeed, you might go for the 4-1 attack on Moscow with the two units, hoping to disorganise the Germans. I wouldn't...

I hadn't seen the fighter.[:(] But I would still go with this plan. If Mannerheim gets disorganized, then life in the north is a lot easier for the Russians. The Russian fighter can intercept the interceptor, and then RTB to Moscow. Who knows? The turn might end and it can be returned to the Air Reserve.

I only want to use 1 air unit on a ground strike. If it fails, next impulse we can use another bomber - when there aren't any nasty fighters around. I'm playing the odds here, since two separate attacks have a better chance of disorganizing a single unit.

I was worried about the ground strike on the ATR, which is why I recommended having it rebase to the rear: Penza is a better location than what I stated earlier.

As for saving the units in Moscow, I would rather force the Germans to attack those 13 strength points in the city. I am sure they can put a lot of units into that attack but they need to get to 65 to make it a 5:1. Even if they commit all the units nearby to the attack, the die can still come up 1, 2, or 3 which leaves a unit in the city and all the Germans disorganized. 4 and 5 aren't bad results either, since it disorganizes 65 strength points of Germans (free guaranteed ground strike on everyone!).

ORIGINAL: Red Prince

ORIGINAL: Centuur

Steve: this means that the planes in Moscow are probably going to get ground striked by the Stuka... If that happens, that TB-3 is a sitting duck...

I would suggest groundstriking Mannerheim with the TB-3 and use the DB-F3 as front bomber on this attack too. The ground strike is going to be intercepted by the German FTR, so the Russian FTR flies too.

Also: why the sacrifice of a good INF in Moscow. The Germans are going to grab the city anyway. If the ground strike succeeds, I would suggest leaving only the MIL in Moscow. If it doesn't succeed, you might go for the 4-1 attack on Moscow with the two units, hoping to disorganise the Germans. I wouldn't...

If anything, it is the MIL that should flee. He can't be rebuilt once Moscow is taken.

I simply measure the length of the unit's legs. 3 or less and it digs a trench to both defend in be buried in. Hence the 2-6 may leave.

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

ORIGINAL: Centuur

Steve: this means that the planes in Moscow are probably going to get ground striked by the Stuka... If that happens, that TB-3 is a sitting duck...

I would suggest groundstriking Mannerheim with the TB-3 and use the DB-F3 as front bomber on this attack too. The ground strike is going to be intercepted by the German FTR, so the Russian FTR flies too.

Also: why the sacrifice of a good INF in Moscow. The Germans are going to grab the city anyway. If the ground strike succeeds, I would suggest leaving only the MIL in Moscow. If it doesn't succeed, you might go for the 4-1 attack on Moscow with the two units, hoping to disorganise the Germans. I wouldn't...

I hadn't seen the fighter.[:(] But I would still go with this plan. If Mannerheim gets disorganized, then life in the north is a lot easier for the Russians. The Russian fighter can intercept the interceptor, and then RTB to Moscow. Who knows? The turn might end and it can be returned to the Air Reserve.

I only want to use 1 air unit on a ground strike. If it fails, next impulse we can use another bomber - when there aren't any nasty fighters around. I'm playing the odds here, since two separate attacks have a better chance of disorganizing a single unit.

I was worried about the ground strike on the ATR, which is why I recommended having it rebase to the rear: Penza is a better location than what I stated earlier.

As for saving the units in Moscow, I would rather force the Germans to attack those 13 strength points in the city. I am sure they can put a lot of units into that attack but they need to get to 65 to make it a 5:1. Even if they commit all the units nearby to the attack, the die can still come up 1, 2, or 3 which leaves a unit in the city and all the Germans disorganized. 4 and 5 aren't bad results either, since it disorganizes 65 strength points of Germans (free guaranteed ground strike on everyone!).

Depending on how I plan things for the Germans, I still have 3-4 other fighters that can rebase to the area, although that leaves something undefended, I think. If Germany fails to make significant headway, I can also reorganize some air power, though I doubt I will. Too expensive, really.

Anyway, I'll try to set all of this up sometime early early early tomoroow morning. Then I'll probably run through to the end of the impulse. That takes us to the Germans and their cronies, and the first shot at ending the turn (10%).

Have a good night/day/morning/evening/afternoon, everyone.

To my surprise, the LND got through at +3/-3 odds against him, but it didn't manage to disorganize Mannerheim. Now I've got to try to figure out exactly what I'm supposed to do with the land units. I'll be railing the Yaroslavl factory out to Akmolinsk, but the rest of it I have to gather from a post above.