Matrix Games Forums

Last emperor of china ....documentary

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z5LZAIg4yRQ

He was considered by his comrades to have a cushy number.

Of course it was 'cushy'. He slept at the HQ. That he had, from time to time, to run to the front line or from trench to trench and thereby risk his life didn't matter much. I rather suspect that a runner had one of the more dangerous positions in the regiment. Even a regimental runner.

ORIGINAL: Orm

warspite1

The program made clear he was not a corporal and thus NOT a non-commissioned officer. Is Gefreiter an NCO I wonder?

Gefreiter is not a non-commissioned officer. Neither is a corporal. And I have never, ever, heard anyone claim that he was a NCO. SO I do not understand why the program is making a point out of it. Are they trying to say that it is tricky to translate grades between countries before attempts were made to standardize them? And even trickier with historical grades?

warspite1

As I understood it a corporal is the lowest grade NCO.

No the point they are making I believe is that this man is not well thought of in the army - one promotion during the entire war and even that did not take him out of the private dept. The Iron Cross story is made up, the level of promotion is made up, he was never an NCO, and the danger involved in his role is made up. It was all Nazi propaganda - that is the point they are making.

ORIGINAL: Orm

He was considered by his comrades to have a cushy number.

Of course it was 'cushy'. He slept at the HQ. That he had, from time to time, to run to the front line or from trench to trench and thereby risk his life didn't matter much. I rather suspect that a runner had one of the more dangerous positions in the regiment. Even a regimental runner.

warspite1

Well who knows, you may be right. But I would be very surprised - not to mention very disappointed - if the likes of Richard Overy and Saul David are putting their names to a load of sensationalist bilge.

I don't like using Wiki for this sort of thing but if this is correct, this would indicate that in the German army in WWI a corporal was an NCO.

A Gefreiter is a Lance-Corporal or enlisted rank.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_Ar ... e.29_ranks

ORIGINAL: warspite1

ORIGINAL: Orm

warspite1

The program made clear he was not a corporal and thus NOT a non-commissioned officer. Is Gefreiter an NCO I wonder?

Gefreiter is not a non-commissioned officer. Neither is a corporal. And I have never, ever, heard anyone claim that he was a NCO. SO I do not understand why the program is making a point out of it. Are they trying to say that it is tricky to translate grades between countries before attempts were made to standardize them? And even trickier with historical grades?

warspite1

As I understood it a corporal is the lowest grade NCO. No the point they are making is that this man is not well thought of in the army - one promotion during the entire war and even that did not take him out of the private dept. The Iron Cross story is made up, the level of promotion is made up, he was never an NCO, and the danger involved in his role is made up. That is the point they are making.

It is as wings7 said. A NCO is a Sergeant (or maybe even higher) and below the officers in rank but above the enlisted men. A Corporal, on the other hand, is a promoted enlisted man.

ORIGINAL: warspite1

ORIGINAL: Orm

warspite1

The program made clear he was not a corporal and thus NOT a non-commissioned officer. Is Gefreiter an NCO I wonder?

Gefreiter is not a non-commissioned officer. Neither is a corporal. And I have never, ever, heard anyone claim that he was a NCO. SO I do not understand why the program is making a point out of it. Are they trying to say that it is tricky to translate grades between countries before attempts were made to standardize them? And even trickier with historical grades?

warspite1

As I understood it a corporal is the lowest grade NCO.

No the point they are making I believe is that this man is not well thought of in the army - one promotion during the entire war and even that did not take him out of the private dept. The Iron Cross story is made up, the level of promotion is made up, he was never an NCO, and the danger involved in his role is made up. It was all Nazi propaganda - that is the point they are making.

If that is the point then I already think less of this program. I have no numbers. But I am guessing that only a few percent of the enlisted men, in the German Army, during WWI, made NCO. I suggest that 90-95% or something like that remained enlisted men during the war.

But I really like to see the 'proof' that he had such a safe job.

ORIGINAL: Orm

ORIGINAL: warspite1

ORIGINAL: Orm


Gefreiter is not a non-commissioned officer. Neither is a corporal. And I have never, ever, heard anyone claim that he was a NCO. SO I do not understand why the program is making a point out of it. Are they trying to say that it is tricky to translate grades between countries before attempts were made to standardize them? And even trickier with historical grades?

warspite1

As I understood it a corporal is the lowest grade NCO.

No the point they are making I believe is that this man is not well thought of in the army - one promotion during the entire war and even that did not take him out of the private dept. The Iron Cross story is made up, the level of promotion is made up, he was never an NCO, and the danger involved in his role is made up. It was all Nazi propaganda - that is the point they are making.

If that is the point then I already think less of this program. I have no numbers. But I am guessing that only a few percent of the enlisted men, in the German Army, during WWI, made NCO. I suggest that 90-95% or something like that remained enlisted men during the war.

But I really like to see the 'proof' that he had such a safe job.

warspite1

Maybe the Wiki site (I posted in 2144) is wrong then. I suspect that no job (except perhaps Lord Melchett's and Captain Darling's) in WWI were 'safe' and that is not what they are saying. They are saying that as jobs go it was a cushy one. That of course is relative.

ORIGINAL: Orm

ORIGINAL: warspite1

ORIGINAL: Orm


Gefreiter is not a non-commissioned officer. Neither is a corporal. And I have never, ever, heard anyone claim that he was a NCO. SO I do not understand why the program is making a point out of it. Are they trying to say that it is tricky to translate grades between countries before attempts were made to standardize them? And even trickier with historical grades?

warspite1

As I understood it a corporal is the lowest grade NCO. No the point they are making is that this man is not well thought of in the army - one promotion during the entire war and even that did not take him out of the private dept. The Iron Cross story is made up, the level of promotion is made up, he was never an NCO, and the danger involved in his role is made up. That is the point they are making.

It is as wings7 said. A NCO is a Sergeant (or maybe even higher) and below the officers in rank but above the enlisted men. A Corporal, on the other hand, is a promoted enlisted man.

warspite1

But Hitler wasn't in the US Army [;)]

ORIGINAL: warspite1

ORIGINAL: Orm

He was considered by his comrades to have a cushy number.

Of course it was 'cushy'. He slept at the HQ. That he had, from time to time, to run to the front line or from trench to trench and thereby risk his life didn't matter much. I rather suspect that a runner had one of the more dangerous positions in the regiment. Even a regimental runner.

warspite1

Well who knows, you may be right. But I would be very surprised - not to mention very disappointed - if the likes of Richard Overy and Saul David are putting their names to a load of sensationalist bilge.

I don't like using Wiki for this sort of thing but if this is correct, this would indicate that in the German army in WWI a corporal was an NCO.

A Gefreiter is a Lance-Corporal or enlisted rank.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_Ar ... e.29_ranks

warspite1

Interestingly this site also states a Corporal in the German Army in WWI was an NCO position - although unlike Wiki they say a Lance Corporal was too

http://www.worldwar1.com/sfgrank.htm

Yes. That is why I wonder why the program begun making a point about the NCO stuff. Or even the corporal stuff. Of course he wasn't a corporal. He was in the *censored* German Army and they didn't use the rank corporal.

I suspect that during the Nazi years it was 'popular' to show AH during WWI as positive as possible. And now it might very well be the opposite. Trying to show as negatively as possible.

Edit: What do you think about taking this discussion to a new thread?

Hitler was a petty officer in the U.S. Navy.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_P ... rt-Houston

ORIGINAL: Orm

Yes. That is why I wonder why the program begun making a point about the NCO stuff. Or even the corporal stuff. Of course he wasn't a corporal. He was in the *censored* German Army and they didn't use the rank corporal.

warspite1

Because when talking about Hitler (or anyone) it is common to use ranks that mean something to the target audience. In the books I read growing up, I never once saw Napoleon referred to as the 'Little Caporal'

Because when talking about Hitler (or anyone) it is common to use ranks that mean something to the target audience.

Then I think Corporal gets as close as it can get. At least closer than using private, 1st class (I am almost considering it trickery to use private, 1st class).

ORIGINAL: Orm

I suspect that during the Nazi years it was 'popular' to show AH during WWI as positive as possible. And now it might very well be the opposite. Trying to show as negatively as possible.

warspite1

I've only seen one episode but I don't get the impression the program makers are simply trying to make him look bad (that needs no help or lies or exaggeration from anyone [:D]) but they are trying to get to understanding how did such a 'nobody' end up running a country like Germany, not to mention having the country swear blind allegiance to him - regardless of the path he was taking them down.

ORIGINAL: Orm

Because when talking about Hitler (or anyone) it is common to use ranks that mean something to the target audience.

Then I think Corporal gets as close as it can get. At least closer than using private, 1st class (I am almost considering it trickery to use private, 1st class).

warspite1

Yes but that is not what the program makers are saying. If they are to be believed then this is not word games, the rank matters. If being a corporal (or equivalent) was not important to Hitler (i.e. it gave him nothing over and above his actual rank) then why make it up?

But from the program makers (and the historians) point of view if being a Private First Class is the same as a Corporal (or equivalent) then why even mention something that can be checked for factual accuracy (and make themselves look a bit amateurish in the process)?

As I say, I don't know enough about this - and three websites I've looked at all say different things. So for now, I will take the word of two well respected historians and assume that they are not playing word games - and outright lying - and take the view this is true (albeit can't wait to get it clarified from another source).

ORIGINAL: warspite1

ORIGINAL: Orm

I suspect that during the Nazi years it was 'popular' to show AH during WWI as positive as possible. And now it might very well be the opposite. Trying to show as negatively as possible.

warspite1

I've only seen one episode but I don't get the impression the program makers are simply trying to make him look bad (that needs no help or lies or exaggeration from anyone [:D]) but they are trying to get to understanding how did such a 'nobody' end up running a country like Germany, not to mention having the country swear blind allegiance to him - regardless of the path he was taking them down.

Looking at some of the royalty, generals and other high ranking people in history is rank, prestige or standing any guarantee.

Hitler was a millionaire and well known , due to Mein Kamp.

warspite1 / No the point they are making I believe / The Iron Cross story is made up, the level of promotion is made up, he was never an NCO, and the danger involved in his role is made up. It was all Nazi propaganda - that is the point they are making.

Here is a photo of Hitler after the end of WWI. Notice the Iron Cross. Of course he could have purchased it or stolen it. I'm sure there is an official record. Wearing an Iron Cross without having earned it could have caused him difficulties in his political campaigns and with military leaders later on.

I think this casts doubt on those making these points/documentary as a whole.

ORIGINAL: Jagdtiger14

warspite1 / No the point they are making I believe / The Iron Cross story is made up, the level of promotion is made up, he was never an NCO, and the danger involved in his role is made up. It was all Nazi propaganda - that is the point they are making.

Here is a photo of Hitler after the end of WWI. Notice the Iron Cross. Of course he could have purchased it or stolen it. I'm sure there is an official record. Wearing an Iron Cross without having earned it could have caused him difficulties in his political campaigns and with military leaders later on.

I think this casts doubt on those making these points/documentary as a whole.

warspite1

No. As per post 2139, the program makers are not saying he wore the Iron Cross without earning it. Adolf Hitler did win the Iron Cross for delivering a dispatch under heavy fire. They are saying the episode he supposedly won it for was actually won by a Jewish officer Hugo Guttman.

They are saying the episode he supposedly won it for was actually won by a Jewish officer Hugo Guttman.

I remember reading something some years ago in a British publication about some documents unearthed in a Bavarian library. The author did not present any actual documents (perhaps not feasible to do so by the publication within that article (space, etc...)), and it seemed to me the author had a lot of speculative conjecture about these documents.

Within the article it was mentioned his superior (Guttman I believe?) was the one who recommended the Iron Cross to Hitler. If Guttman won it, why would he recommend Hitler for it?

Oh, and I see its also mentioned at the wiki: "Military career of Adolph Hitler"

ORIGINAL: Jagdtiger14

They are saying the episode he supposedly won it for was actually won by a Jewish officer Hugo Guttman.

I remember reading something some years ago in a British publication about some documents unearthed in a Bavarian library. The author did not present any actual documents (perhaps not feasible to do so by the publication within that article (space, etc...)), and it seemed to me the author had a lot of speculative conjecture about these documents.

Within the article it was mentioned his superior (Guttman I believe?) was the one who recommended the Iron Cross to Hitler. If Guttman won it, why would he recommend Hitler for it?

Oh, and I see its also mentioned at the wiki: "Military career of Adolph Hitler"

warspite1

He didn't....