Matrix Games Forums

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy
Sure, it was a glorious display of big gun firepower (the likes of which the world will never see again). But the mortal blow to the Japanese battleline had already been done.

It's still nice to imagine the line of US battleships pounding a single Japanese target.

Just helping to pad the post count of course.

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

ORIGINAL: crsutton
At Surigao Straight, the old BBs that were equipped with the very sophisticated MK 8 fire control system did all the shooting and hitting. Those ships using the older MK 3 system might as well have been sitting at the dock for all they were worth.

While this comparison (Mk 3 v. the Mk 8 equipped BBs) is correct and true, it still misses the mark. The greatest impact at Surigao wasn't a surfeit of big gunned battlewagons lobbing hundreds of shells.

The biggest impact at Surigao was the functional torpedoes of the Desrons that attacked the Japanese battleline. A successful surprise attack with functional torpedoes ripped the Fuso in half, damaged Yamashiro and damaged or sank 3 of the Japanese DDs, if memory suits.

Oldendorf's battleships were cleaning up the scraps at that point. Sure, it was a glorious display of big gun firepower (the likes of which the world will never see again). But the mortal blow to the Japanese battleline had already been done.

ETA: Corrected BB names.

Yes, and it should be noted that what working radar the Japanese had at Surigao failed to detect these attacks or the earlier PT attacks. Yes, Japanese ships had radar, but it never was much of anything.

My point about Surigao is the difference between the modern fire control systems and radar systems of the two combatants.

At 03:16, West Virginia's radar picked up the surviving ships of Nishimura's force at a range of 42,000 yd (38,000 m) and had achieved a firing solution at 30,000 yd (27,000 m). West Virginia tracked them as they approached in the pitch black night. At 03:53, she fired the eight 16 in (410 mm) guns of her main battery at a range of 22,800 yd (20,800 m), striking Yamashiro with her first salvo.


Using modern radar and the Mk8 fire control system the West Virginia fired and hit with her very first salvo at over "twelve miles" away. Something that neither side could have pulled off in 1943. I don't know how this translates in game terms but the gulf between the two surface forces had by the time of this battle had become too large for the Japanese to overcome. Technology allowed for the Allies to lengthen the range of engagement to the point where the long lance was no longer a factor.

If anything, I think the game is overly generous to late war Japanese surface forces, but don't really mind due to the fun factor. I have to admit. I love a good surface mix up more than a carrier fight....[;)]

ORIGINAL: crsutton

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

ORIGINAL: crsutton
At Surigao Straight, the old BBs that were equipped with the very sophisticated MK 8 fire control system did all the shooting and hitting. Those ships using the older MK 3 system might as well have been sitting at the dock for all they were worth.

While this comparison (Mk 3 v. the Mk 8 equipped BBs) is correct and true, it still misses the mark. The greatest impact at Surigao wasn't a surfeit of big gunned battlewagons lobbing hundreds of shells.

The biggest impact at Surigao was the functional torpedoes of the Desrons that attacked the Japanese battleline. A successful surprise attack with functional torpedoes ripped the Fuso in half, damaged Yamashiro and damaged or sank 3 of the Japanese DDs, if memory suits.

Oldendorf's battleships were cleaning up the scraps at that point. Sure, it was a glorious display of big gun firepower (the likes of which the world will never see again). But the mortal blow to the Japanese battleline had already been done.

ETA: Corrected BB names.

Yes, and it should be noted that what working radar the Japanese had at Surigao failed to detect these attacks or the earlier PT attacks. Yes, Japanese ships had radar, but it never was much of anything.

My point about Surigao is the difference between the modern fire control systems and radar systems of the two combatants.

At 03:16, West Virginia's radar picked up the surviving ships of Nishimura's force at a range of 42,000 yd (38,000 m) and had achieved a firing solution at 30,000 yd (27,000 m). West Virginia tracked them as they approached in the pitch black night. At 03:53, she fired the eight 16 in (410 mm) guns of her main battery at a range of 22,800 yd (20,800 m), striking Yamashiro with her first salvo.


Using modern radar and the Mk8 fire control system the West Virginia fired and hit with her very first salvo at over "twelve miles" away. Something that neither side could have pulled off in 1943. I don't know how this translates in game terms but the gulf between the two surface forces had by the time of this battle had become too large for the Japanese to overcome. Technology allowed for the Allies to lengthen the range of engagement to the point where the long lance was no longer a factor.

If anything, I think the game is overly generous to late war Japanese surface forces, but don't really mind due to the fun factor. I have to admit. I love a good surface mix up more than a carrier fight....[;)]

+1
Ever since I got my first plastic battleship model [Iowa], I have been captured by the vision of the great guns blasting away. Too bad the airplane was not delayed 30 years or so in development so the modern BBs could have at each other!

10/30/42

Back in the saddle, but short on time today, so a brief update.

Bay of Bengal: Quincy TF picks off a crippled IJN DD near Ramree Island. Avengers sortie - probably against stricken Mutsu - but CAP chews them up (they didn't have escort). I've moved forward B-25s to Ramree, hoping they'll get a shot tomorrow. Also, subs are hugging the coast - I think Mutsu is so badly damaged she'll head for Rangoon or possibly Georgetown.

Burma: The Australians, Americans and Brits hang tough in open terrain, easily beating back an IJ deliberate attack (250 IJ squads disabled being the only significant damage). In the jungle, the Allies get a solid 1:1 shock attack vs. 21st IJA Div., inflicting much heavier damage on the enemy. I'll try again tomorrow.

Pacific: Over vacation, I"ve decided to proceed with the Allied invasion, come what may. The Allied ships are moving NW and will slide between Lord Howe Island and the Australian mainland. D-Day approximately 12-13 days.

80/53/+11

10/31/42

Bay of Bengal: DD Griffin intercepts the Mutsu TF making slow time towards Rangoon. The DD puts 23 small-caliber shells into the big BB, but in return is sunk. B-25s sortie, but against unprotected shipping at Moulmein, damaging a few xAKs. Allied subs are flooding the area. That's probably my last shot at Mutsu.

Burma: The Allied army shock attacks again, this time drawing a 1:2 that does considerably more damage to IJA 21st Div., which still manages to hold the hex. Over the past two turns, the Allied shock attacks have destroyed 51 combat squads with none disrupted. So 21 Div. is in a bad way, but my troops are too tuckered out to close the deal. They'll rest a few days before trying again.

Pacific: An IJN DD TF sank a flanker xAKL near Lord Howe Island. This enemy force is uncomfortably close to my amphibiuos force, which is now moving northwest. I have to keep my carrier air "on alert" since enemy carriers could be close enough to give battle, so I'm worried that carrier strike aircraft will sortie and thus prematurely give away positive ID of their presence. 4EB in numbers raid Horn Island.

83/50/+10

80/53/+11

83/50/+10

More of CR's creepy arithmetic!

ORIGINAL: pws1225

80/53/+11

83/50/+10

More of CR's creepy arithmetic!

Just misplaced keystrokes! [:D]

(Always just below his posts, always double digit numbers, which are so easy to hit on the keyboard, now with foreword slashes added and a plus sign)

Yeah, but it's doesn't mean anything. Ooooh, mysteries! It's like those numbers on lost. Maybe something will explode if he doesn't type them each post.

Here are some of my misplaced keystrokes.

w0 fj f84\ f 8_ --

Looks pretty similar, I guess.

Maybe it's a daily summary of his win-loss progress in the air war (or a rolling average of his progress in the post-count war with Greyjoy...) [;)]

I'll take a stab at this.... The first number has been slowly increasing, the second number decreasing by the same amount so they clearly must represent readiness levels. Right now 83 of whatever are ready/in position while 50 aren't. My guess is the third number is the countdown to when whatever it is will be unleashed.

The other alternative is that it represents a distance countdown, 83 hexes travelled, 50 to go. The relatively steady rate of increase of the 1st number ( 3 per game day ) seems to argue for something like that but then the +10 doesn't make sense as, at a rate of 3 hexes per day, whatever it is won't reach 133/0 @ +0.

So, I'm guessing an accounting of units/ships ready to do something as well as your ETA for whenever that something will happen. At this rate the 10th November 1942 should be fairly interesting.

ORIGINAL: Nemo121

I'll take a stab at this.... The first number has been slowly increasing, the second number decreasing by the same amount so they clearly must represent readiness levels. Right now 83 of whatever are ready/in position while 50 aren't. My guess is the third number is the countdown to when whatever it is will be unleashed.

The other alternative is that it represents a distance countdown, 83 hexes travelled, 50 to go. The relatively steady rate of increase of the 1st number ( 3 per game day ) seems to argue for something like that but then the +10 doesn't make sense as, at a rate of 3 hexes per day, whatever it is won't reach 133/0 @ +0.

So, I'm guessing an accounting of units/ships ready to do something as well as your ETA for whenever that something will happen. At this rate the 10th November 1942 should be fairly interesting.

Yeah, it's definitely about the operation coming up. Maybe +10 ten days to landing but the other numbers will change their relationship to each other. Originally it was only on two digit number. Such a puzzle. [:D]

The progression of the single number matches the later progression of the 1st number in the triad. Hence I'm sure they're actually measuring the same thing and simply a continuance. In any case, in a few days time there will be explosions and cool stuff a'happenin'.

Here's the entire progression of numbers as best that I can see. They are listed in game date order:

10/22: 37
10/23: 42
10/24: 48
10/25: 56
10/26: 59
10/27: 64
10/28: 71
10/29: 77/57
10/30: 80/53+11
10/31: 83/50+10

Back on 10/22, CR was holding his invasion TFs in the "black hole" west of New Zealand. On the 23 his post indicates that all ships are in place and he was waiting to be sure the KB was far away. Sure looks like a countdown of some sort.

ORIGINAL: pws1225

Here's the entire progression of numbers as best that I can see. They are listed in game date order:

10/22: 37
10/23: 42
10/24: 48
10/25: 56
10/26: 59
10/27: 64
10/28: 71
10/29: 77/57
10/30: 80/53+11
10/31: 83/50+10

Back on 10/22, CR was holding his invasion TFs in the "black hole" west of New Zealand. On the 23 his post indicates that all ships are in place and he was waiting to be sure the KB was far away. Sure looks like a countdown of some sort.

Ooooo - NSA is going to have fits over this code! Since it has been commented on by people in at least two countries [England and Canada], there must surely be a conspiracy afoot ... or asea![8D]

11/01/42

SWPac: The huge concentration of amphibious ships continues up the east coast of Oz, drawing some detection for several TFs. The carriers are trailing by ten hexes to guard against ambush. Huge concentrations of land-based fighters will provide LRCAP as the ships move up the coast. D-Day roughly ten days. 4EB hit Horn Island and find massed Tojo CAP.

Bay of Bengal: Japanese bombers concentrate on Ramree, doing modest damage to the airfield.

Burma: B-25s refuse to fly from Cox's Bazaar (they were to target the units in the hex with 41st USA Div. and the two Aussie Divs.)

88/48/+7

11/02/42

SWPac: The main concentration of amphibious TFs (and some powerful combat TFs) is just SE of Brisbane and will pass that city tonight. The carriers are trailing. Lots of pickets and flankers to the front. Somehow, Japanese patrols fail to pick up a single TF today - even the flankers that are well of the coast towards New Caledonia. This is good! The first targets will be Horn Island, Terapo and Port Moresby. I feel certain a big carrier battle will take place. If all goes well, the Allies will immediately move on to Merauke, Gove and Sale. After unloading, the ships will retire to Cairns and Townsville to pick up the second wave troops bound for Milne Bay and the islands offshore. No disturbing SigInt or signs of base building, but still lots of enemy TFs and fighters in theater. D-Day should be no more than 10 days away.

Bay of Bengal: Enemy bombers concentrate on Ramree Island, doing medium damage.

Burma: 18th IJA Div. joins the beleaugered 21st Div. in the jungle. 21st is in ruins, so John may pull it back. I need to go through my notes to find out if 18th is new to theater (I hope so - feeding more fresh meat into the grinder!) or one previously engaged elsewhere. 18th UK Div. is perhaps 14 days away from joining this stack, at which time the Allies should readily reduce the new enemy division.

91/44/+4/36

Good stuff in CR's and John's AARs. Lots of fun to follow.

But CR's math just keeps getting stranger and stranger:

91/44/+4/36 [&:]

11/3/42

SWPac: Japanese patrols pick up many of the TFs embedded in the amphibious armada as it moves north of Brisbane. Things should heat up pretty quick now. The Allied TFs will hug the coast to take advantage of LRCAP. Lots of enemy activity at a variety of bases, but no sign of the KB or major combat ships. Final adjustments made to carrier air squadrons. Over on the west coast, the large "feint" TF is moving well NW of Perth, but hasn't yet been picked up by enemy patrols. This feint isn't likely to work, but "just in case." Also, three Allied DDs are within shouting distance of Cocos, so they can sprint forward in a few days to (hopefully) further confuse John. D-Day in nine days. Gulp time.

Bay of Bengal: Quiet except for modest enemy air raids vs. Ramree. BB Ramilles is still parked at Chittagong. I'll send her to Colombo (and thence to Capetown) in a few days.

Burma: Nothing major today as both sides seem to be shifting and gathering for the next probes/attacks. 18th UK Div. roughly 13 days away from joining the main force on the road between Akyab and Ramree.

94/41/+4/32

My gut is not entirely sanguine about this. John has 9 days to react, we know at least some of the target bases are well defended, and it's still 1942. If KB is anywhere nearby and John assembles a bunch of LBA, things could get bloody, CR. Then again, if KB is too far away, you should pull this off with acceptable losses. 9 days is a long time, though.

I know what you mean. These are the tough decisions. What tips the scales, in my mind, is that Japan has committed so many divisions now - and had so many beaten up - that defending on the ground is going to prove problematic for John. Too, I need to open up a second air war to relieve some of the pressure from Burma. New Guinea is an excellent "second air front." I think there's going to be hot-and-heavy naval action, but the Allies are close to home ports and LRCAP and I also have all the slow (and three fast) BBs present. So I think the Allies can absorb alot of punishment while dealing out even more. In summary, the factors coalesce to make this the time to move in force.

ORIGINAL: Cribtop

My gut is not entirely sanguine about this. John has 9 days to react, we know at least some of the target bases are well defended, and it's still 1942. If KB is anywhere nearby and John assembles a bunch of LBA, things could get bloody, CR. Then again, if KB is too far away, you should pull this off with acceptable losses. 9 days is a long time, though.

+1 Dan

The KB will win a CV match in late 42 8-out-of-10 times. Be carefull