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Pelton - what on earth is a bat patch?!?
 
2 questions for you:
 
1.) Do you see any negatives for the Soviet's in this patch?
2.) Have you actually played this patch yet?
 
P.S. You may as well just copy and paste your posts from now on with regard to this patch, will save you typing the same diatribe.

Speaking historically here and a bit tongue in cheek, how can the Soviets complain about a month of possibily ahistorical German attacks in March 42 and defend the 4 MONTHS of free clear weather campaigning season they get in 1945?  You'd think the Allies would've take Berlin well before that.  For that matter, the Germans probably would've won the nuclear sweepstakes in August instead of the Japanese, but of course, it's all conjecture.

Shvestov's 29. Army was encircled and destroyed in mid February, yes. The Sovs lost 6 divisions outright and 4 more scattered (in game terms presumably routed.) 4800 POWs and 26,0000 enemy dead.

This isn't quite March madness.

Other Soviet formations got caught behind lines and cleaning those up took quite some time, stretching into June.

ORIGINAL: Speedy

Pelton - what on earth is a bat patch?!?

2 questions for you:

1.) Do you see any negatives for the Soviet's in this patch?
2.) Have you actually played this patch yet?

P.S. You may as well just copy and paste your posts from now on with regard to this patch, will save you typing the same diatribe.

I am talking about the 100% historically possible German snow offensive that was nerfed out of the game by 2by3.

Now if you want to start some childish Spell checking police thread go right ahead son.

Heheheh, again your all feelings and zero facts.

Your standard MO, personal attacks and zero data.

pelton

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

Shvestov's 29. Army was encircled and destroyed in mid February, yes. The Sovs lost 6 divisions outright and 4 more scattered (in game terms presumably routed.) 4800 POWs and 26,0000 enemy dead.

This isn't quite March madness.

Other Soviet formations got caught behind lines and cleaning those up took quite some time, stretching into June.

Thanks for looking that up.

I think the case has been made( by others that spell better heeheh) that it is a logical historical possibity that the Germans could have conducted an offensive during March 1942.

if I missed spelled something Speedy , pray for me P


Speedy I am looking for someone to take long walks with on the beach -

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

Shvestov's 29. Army was encircled and destroyed in mid February, yes. The Sovs lost 6 divisions outright and 4 more scattered (in game terms presumably routed.) 4800 POWs and 26,0000 enemy dead.

This isn't quite March madness.

Other Soviet formations got caught behind lines and cleaning those up took quite some time, stretching into June.

Plus the blocking forces were strong enough to stop another Army outright trying to relieve the pocket. A far cry of what is possible in game in February.

Considering that there were only 3 fresh division available, I think it scales quite well with what happens once the blizzard penalties are gone and there are 10-20 fresh divisions involved. The cleanup lasting to June was mainly due to the mobility of the Cav Corps and the terrain preventing anybody getting it to grips.

Fact remains, combat penalties are the wrong way of dealing with the issue of oversized (in terms of terrain covered) March offensives and that said, same goes for the Blizzard effects, artificial combat penalties being used to cover up a flawed logistics model.

Info from another player and not me.

It's really tough to find something useful in English but here's a quick overview:

http://www.worldwar-2.net/timelines/war ... x-1942.htm

January and February

02/01/1942 The Red Army achieves a breakthrough at Rzhev.
04/01/1942 The Red Army captures Kaluga to the southwest of Moscow.
15/01/1942 Army Group Centre evacuates the Kaluga sector and takes up winter positions 20 miles to the West.
24/01/1942 German troops of Army Group Centre, recapture Sukhinichi near Kaluga.
01/02/1942 The Red Army begins an offensive toward Vyazma. Zhukov is promoted to command the West Theatre, which includes the Kalinin, West and Bryansk Fronts.
03/02/1942 German forces of Army Group Centre launch a counterattack at Vyazma, cutting off and encircling several Red Army divisions.

Speedy's perfect spelling and grammar is a huge turn on [;)]

He would fit right in on the Big Bang Throey.

did I spell that right[:(]

2by3's reply to historical data?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K8E_zMLCRNg

Pelton if you read your responses and posts you'll see that a fair percentage of them are either flaming, trolling and or personal attacks. I challenge you to find my posts that are personal attacks on you?

MechFO, I don't disagree, the solution here isn't ideal. I rather like the idea you floated uptopic about rail cap.

A drastic overhaul of the game's logistical system is unlikely to happen until WitW.

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx


A drastic overhaul of the game's logistical system is unlikely to happen until WitW.

does that mean it will be ported to wite?

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

MechFO, I don't disagree, the solution here isn't ideal. I rather like the idea you floated uptopic about rail cap.

A drastic overhaul of the game's logistical system is unlikely to happen until WitW.

Rail Cap is I think the quickest and easiest but I don't understand why you guys aren't using the Axis Raily Supply Modifier more aggressively. I don't know if it's event driven but what's stopping you from really cranking it up December 41 - March 42 in addition to more severe MP penalties at least for Blizzard and arguably also for Snow.

Ideally you would have excess Rail Cap influence supply capacity, same as in TOAW, so the player is forced to choose between Strat Redeployment and Supply, but I see that's definitely WITW if ever.

ORIGINAL: Speedy

Pelton if you read your responses and posts you'll see that a fair percentage of them are either flaming, trolling and or personal attacks. I challenge you to find my posts that are personal attacks on you?

Pelton is a whiner that wants you to design the game especially for him!!

These are pretty good ideas, MechFO.

I'm hesitant to jacking up terrain movement costs, though. Remember the 43 counteroffensive. The Axis covered a lot of ground in that. I'm just not sure they could pull a Manstein if we changed that up in order to get 42 right.

But hitting MPs via logistics is probably the way to go.

ORIGINAL: Treale

Pelton is a whiner that wants you to design the game especially for him!!

No... Pelton is just passionate about the game, but has sadly overreacted to the changes, before playing under them. I have seen this before many times in WitP, and it passes (in most cases). For me this patch is just the normal progression of this game, which was needed,and good, also the full impact of the patch will no be known for sometime.

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

These are pretty good ideas, MechFO.

I'm hesitant to jacking up terrain movement costs, though. Remember the 43 counteroffensive. The Axis covered a lot of ground in that. I'm just not sure they could pull a Manstein if we changed that up in order to get 42 right.

But hitting MPs via logistics is probably the way to go.

AIUI special movement penalties are already coded for the Axis for the Blizzard in 41 which don't apply to later years, so extending those penalties to Snow (don't they cover snow turns Dec-February anyway?) until March 42 should be doable with little effort and low risk.

ORIGINAL: DivePac88

ORIGINAL: Treale

Pelton is a whiner that wants you to design the game especially for him!!

No... Pelton is just passionate about the game, but has sadly overreacted to the changes, before playing under them. I have seen this before many times in WitP, and it passes (in most cases). For me this patch is just the normal progression of this game, which was needed,and good, also the full impact of the patch will no be known for sometime.

Then we need to have positive feedback and not someone accussing 2x3 of ruining the spirit of the game on purpose! I would hope that we are all adults on here that can carry on a fruitful discussion of things??

ORIGINAL: DivePac88

ORIGINAL: Treale

Pelton is a whiner that wants you to design the game especially for him!!

No... Pelton is just passionate about the game, but has sadly overreacted to the changes, before playing under them. I have seen this before many times in WitP, and it passes (in most cases). For me this patch is just the normal progression of this game, which was needed,and good, also the full impact of the patch will no be known for sometime.

Passion is one thing. But the constant accusations/invective/insults go way beyond that. It does, at least IMO, lead one to believe that he wants an "i win" button.

And it is selective reading. Just how anyone can seriously look at the patch notes and think that cutting the CP or command span of the Soviets is a sympton of pro Soviet bias is beyond what any reasonable person could comprehend.

Gotta love those who want Stalin rules that hamstring the Soviets, but just completely ignore Hitler's own meddling. Somehow, I don't think any Axis player would like rules that say they can't take Leningrad because Hitler said no.

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

Shvestov's 29. Army was encircled and destroyed in mid February, yes. The Sovs lost 6 divisions outright and 4 more scattered (in game terms presumably routed.) 4800 POWs and 26,0000 enemy dead.

This isn't quite March madness.

Other Soviet formations got caught behind lines and cleaning those up took quite some time, stretching into June.

How can this be so haphazardly passed over? This is really more proof of bias? Stop claiming this game as historical. It is only a game with only a superficial likeness to actual combat on the eastern front. I was here early and remember the first released games' blizzard. Even now the understanding is that the current blizzard isn't as bad as the original blizzard. This is true, but from what point of view are we looking at?

The Axis, during the blizzard of 1941, was able to cut off and destroy a Soviet force of over 30k+. That is not reflected in this game; and yet, it is so easily dismissed.

The fact is historically, the Germans put all their panzers on the front lines and pushed for Moscow. The blizzard hit and it was a disaster. If the player in this game chooses to preserve his armor and then bring it back out after the blizzard is over that is unhistorical and therefore brings the ire of the devs to stop that?

The main problem is with supply. The fix needs to be with supply.

This is an example of having Hitler on the Axis' back. Historically Hitler wrecked the panzer formations by driving on Moscow. In the game therefore panzer formations must be similarly gutted; and if the Axis player doesn't comply, well then the devs are going to do it for them.

I have no problem with getting rid of the Lvov pocket. If this game is historical then lets do it. But the game is not historical.

What would happen if you took the pocket away? The Axis would be in outright mutiny and everyone knows why.

If the game is marketed as a historical game then make it historical. The Lvov pocket is clearly unhistorical.