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Yes as the Soviets just accept the game is designed/baked to make you lose alot of men period as long the German player has any skill at making pockets.

It really is almost impossible to prevent the Germans from pocketing Soviet units if they concentrate 15+ motorized/panzer divisions in one sector in 1942. You can make them pay some casualties and maybe keep breaking into the pocket to keep it kicking an extra turn or two but end result is they will get the pocket and crush it eventually.

The key thing Im seeing from playing the Soviets in 1942 is keep making the Germans pay in losses/delay pockets collapsing as long as possible. While all this is going on just build/keep enough infantry to keep feeding into the meat grinding while building/training your offensive forces.

In general an average loss of 50k men per turn is fine as your still gaining about 50k+ per turn then.

As to AP just try not to lose more than your gaining per turn. Some turns you will lose more than you make but as long as the Average is about right. Also I lean towards using the new AP points to build more offensive strength as come 1943 the Soviets will need to attack.

With Loki having 8M men right now he is fine, IDK what he is building right now but I wouldnt be building any more infantry if I was him till he takes more losses. Then again I according to Pelton have built a totally different Soviet Army than he is used to facing.

ORIGINAL: Matnjord

Losing 60 000-80 000 men a turn is okay?!? Adding to the "send them into battle and let them force the Germans to waste a few shells" approach to retiring old military hardware life really is cheap in Soviet Russia [:(]

You can't do it indefinitely, but a well set up sacrificial line will take 2 turns for the Germans to absorb, slow them down and maybe allow you to make a mess of their supply lines. Also, with the later 1942 ToEs, the numbers that your rifle divisions can absorb drops, so that makes your manpower reserve, as such, less critical.

Despite Stalin's notorious quote, in reality the Red Army evolved into 2 distinct blocks. A small 'quality' army (the armour, Gds etc) and a large 'quantity' army. Its the latter you can afford to run down, the former you have to preserve as much as possible. Its the 'quality' army that will take you to Berlin, while the 'quantity' army holds the Germans in place and simply allows you to overwhelm them.

ORIGINAL: chaos45

Yes as the Soviets just accept the game is designed/baked to make you lose alot of men period as long the German player has any skill at making pockets.

It really is almost impossible to prevent the Germans from pocketing Soviet units if they concentrate 15+ motorized/panzer divisions in one sector in 1942. You can make them pay some casualties and maybe keep breaking into the pocket to keep it kicking an extra turn or two but end result is they will get the pocket and crush it eventually.

The key thing Im seeing from playing the Soviets in 1942 is keep making the Germans pay in losses/delay pockets collapsing as long as possible. While all this is going on just build/keep enough infantry to keep feeding into the meat grinding while building/training your offensive forces.

In general an average loss of 50k men per turn is fine as your still gaining about 50k+ per turn then.

As to AP just try not to lose more than your gaining per turn. Some turns you will lose more than you make but as long as the Average is about right. Also I lean towards using the new AP points to build more offensive strength as come 1943 the Soviets will need to attack.

With Loki having 8M men right now he is fine, IDK what he is building right now but I wouldnt be building any more infantry if I was him till he takes more losses. Then again I according to Pelton have built a totally different Soviet Army than he is used to facing.

I agree with chaos (a strange thing to write as I've just been reading Paradise Lost), the impact of the 40 NM means the Germans will win a lot of victories, especially from July onwards. I now have a lot of rifle divisions in the 40-43 range which tends to produce a cv of 2, so stacks are 4-7 depending on what is in them.

This is why I think one way to see the summer of 1942 is you have to decrease the German MP since there is not much you can do about combat values (the reward for losses inflicted now comes in 1943).

Its a good bit of game design, and you see it even more in WiTW, is that the three main Armies (Soviet, German, UK/USA) all make very different demands and fight differently. I'm afraid with the Soviets, to a large extent manpower is a tool to an end, whereas with the Western Allies if you play that way you'll lose. Rather appreciate that sort of subtle modelling.

I'd also agree that at some stage in mid/late 1942 you have to switch focus from what you need to survive ... now ... to the longer term army. There are so few AARs into post-43 that started with 1.08.02/3 that its a bit unclear what works and in any case I think its very situational. If you are short of trucks, there is no point building a lot of motorised units as all you'll do is worsen the performance of your unmotorised formations. But if you have too few mobile units, then a competent German player can retreat with a lot of control. As so often, Cavalry corps are of course the means to bridge these constraints - at least to a point.

I'm an artillery fan for 1943. I think the extra losses and the extra disruptions over time really build up.

It seems we think alike on what to build. Until the western allies start sending trucks there is just no way for the Soviet player to maintain a decent pool of trucks period.

Also even with the western allies sending trucks you will only be able to maintain so many mech/tank corps. In fact im slowly starting to lean towards disbanding my remaining tank BDEs instead of forming more tank corps.

Cav corps/artillery divisions take very few trucks yet one hits very hard and the other is a good mix between mobility and hitting power without draining a ton of trucks.

ORIGINAL: chaos45

It seems we think alike on what to build. Until the western allies start sending trucks there is just no way for the Soviet player to maintain a decent pool of trucks period.

Also even with the western allies sending trucks you will only be able to maintain so many mech/tank corps. In fact im slowly starting to lean towards disbanding my remaining tank BDEs instead of forming more tank corps.

Cav corps/artillery divisions take very few trucks yet one hits very hard and the other is a good mix between mobility and hitting power without draining a ton of trucks.

aye, my feeling is that there is no point building an army that simply puts more pressure on your key shortage of trucks, so anything that offers firepower or mobility at minimal truck cost is a good build. Artillery divisions become awesome, you can often bring 3 (sometimes more) to support an attack and German disruptions escalate. Those flip to fatigue, its hard enough for the Germans to rest units in any case, so it all builds up the pressure on them ... of course you have to survive 1942 in a decent state first though [:)]

be interesting to see what 1943 army you've put together, I don't think there has been a lot of analysis and evaluation of the options, especially in the light of the recent patches

Turn 60: 6-13 August 1942

By early August, it was clear that the focus of the German offensive was towards Stalino and Rostov.




(Soviet prisoner taken in the Oskol-Sosna battles)

In the Crimea, the relentless bombing of Sevastopol continued.



To add to Stavka's concerns, Soviet reconnaissance flights also detected a major build up to the west of Kursk, including at least one Panzer Corps



This seemed to imply that the Germans were now confident they could both attack towards Rostov and Tula at the same time. In response, across most of the southern section of the front, Soviet formations fell back seeking to avoid encirclement, for the moment, the preservation of the army was seen as more important than holding any city.

The bulk of the armies in southern Russia fell back on the Don but rearguards were left at key locations to delay any renewal of the German offensive. The threat of a German offensive northwards towards Moscow meant that only limited reinforcements could be sent even as casualties escalated.



The exception was at Smolensk where the Germans had pulled back their reserves (presumably to reinforce their forces at Kursk).

In vicious fighting, 22 Army again drove towards Rudnya and the rail link to the German units at Smolensk




(22 Army units in action)

With the German front broken, 3 Tank Army drove through the gaps cutting the lines of communication of 50 and 59 corps.







Losses remained heavy. The Germans lost 30,000 men (8,000 killed), 90 tanks and 90 planes. Soviet losses were 200,000 men (16,000 killed, 150,000 prisoners), 400 tanks and 330 planes.

Despite the battering, the Soviet manpower reserve was 350,000 [1] and they had almost 600,000 armament points.

[1] Main reason this has gone up is due to the mid-1942 rifle division OOB, that removes quite a lot of manpower from the front line units.

As with the German loss of combat power due to an OOB change in 1944, this happened in reality in response to losses but happens in game regardless. It does mean that manpower centres, as such, become increasingly unimportant for the Soviets, which in turn makes it easier to give up cities under pressure.

However, combined with the 40NM it means you have most rifle divisions at 2 cv and if they have morale <40 (or low experience) they can be back at 1.

Oh well, only another 6-7 weeks to cope with this, at least this game my morale will recover as the supply situation is fine.

Turn 61: 13-19 August 1942

Mid-August saw almost the entire front from the Dvina to the lower Don engulfed in flames. In the searing summer heat, the two armies traded blows at Smolensk, German armour swept eastwards into the Don bend and the Kursk-Voronezh sector exploded. Only in the north did the two armies sit on the defensive and even here the German night fighters and the U2s carried on their deadly game of cat and mouse.

The South

It was clear that the Germans were seeking a decisive victory over the Soviet forces in the south as almost all their mobile formations struck south and east. The result was to leave the Soviet state with almost no control over Ukrainian territory giving the emerging disaster both a political and military aspect [1].




(38 Army preparing for the Voroshilovgrad offensive)

However, they had overextended their spearheads. The result was a series of bruising Soviet counterattacks. Coastal and 38 Armies inflicted heavy losses on 6 and 20 Panzer, opening a narrow corridor along the Donets to the units cut off around Voroshilovgrad.



To the north, 38 Army cut their supply lines as 2 Panzer was forced back. However, the scope for an even deeper encirclement failed when 11 Panzer just managed to fend off an attack by 42 Army.




(Soviet infantry using a destroyed Pzr III for cover)

The consequence of the Soviet attacks was not just to re-open communications to the formations in the Voroshilovgrad area, it also meant almost the entire German armoured force on this sector was now out of supply.



Kursk

Mid-August also saw the start of the German offensive at Kursk. This consisted of a very powerful infantry attack to the west of the city backed up by a single Panzer Corps. To the east, the Germans launched a broad front attack. While they made some gains they also became entangled in Soviet strongpoints allowing the bulk of the Soviet formations to pull back to defensive positions on the Sosna.



Smolensk

At Smolensk, yet again the Germans counterattacked driving the Soviets back but again, after recapturing some ground, they fell back.



Here Stavka demanded a renewal of the offensive. Recapturing even a small corner of Bielorussia would go some way to offset the loss of Soviet control in the Ukraine.

The Germans had left gaps in their positions to the south of the Dnepr. Volkhov Front commenced a limited offensive making significant gains around Kletja. In turn elements of 3 Tank Army cut deep into their rear overrunning HQ and airbases. To complete the chaos, a Soviet paratroop drop cut off 50 and 59 Corps at Smolensk.



Soviet estimates was that the Germans had no fresh reserves with all their available formations now committed at Kursk. If this offensive forced 39 Pzr Corps to redeploy to the south of the Dneipr, potentially the way was open to Vitebsk. A wider goal was the ability to turn the southern flank of Army Group North, setting up the scope for an offensive aimed at liberating Leningrad in the winter.

OOB



Both sides suffered heavy losses. The Germans lost 36,000 men (11,000 killed), 175 tanks and 220 planes (many over-run on their airfields). Soviet losses were 180,000 men (19,000 killed and 120,000 prisoners), 225 tanks and 420 planes.


[1] One reason that Soviet morale fell apart after the June 1942 battles was the loss of the Ukraine. This mattered for various reasons. One, as a consequence of the 1930s famines (and events after the revolution) was the fear that the Ukraine would politically detach itself. Second many senior figures in the Soviet leadership were Ukrainian (Kruschev et al). Third it meant that in effect the USSR was (at least in terms of European geography) only really Russia with this undermining a critical part of the regime's claims to legitimacy.

Re-entering the Ukraine, post Stalingrad, became a major political prize, a competition that drove the military actions of various corps and army commanders. One of the many reasons why the Germans were able to extract most of their formations from the Don region.

[2] On the subject of good support unit builds, I've been experimenting with the light gun regiment. In its favour, 76mm artillery is cheap and you have a lot in the pool, it also is not too ammunition intensive. From observation, they don't inflict many direct losses but they fire a lot and cause disruptions. So I now have 1-2 attached to each army.

Tank columns fighting it out in Ukraine, desperate defense at Kursk, paradrops at Smolensk... This is some gripping stuff you have going on here Loki.

Keep this coming!

Not only does loki have some mad AAR skills, but he has got some gaming skills also.

GJ

ORIGINAL: Matnjord

Tank columns fighting it out in Ukraine, desperate defense at Kursk, paradrops at Smolensk... This is some gripping stuff you have going on here Loki.

Keep this coming!

the best of this phase of the war is that it can be dynamic with at least some scope for counterattacks and trying to outhink your opponent, the worst is the hard coded collapse of Soviet capacity with the impact of the 40 morale rule and the shift to the late 1942 OOBs

ORIGINAL: Pelton

Not only does loki have some mad AAR skills, but he has got some gaming skills also.

GJ

less sure about the latter, but lets see how all this works out when I finally am able to put together a viable defense again

Turn 62: 20-26 August 1942

Despite the setbacks of the previous week, the Germans managed to recover their balance and reseal the main pockets.

South

However, in the south they were still at the limits of their supply lines. Soviet units struck their exposed defences around Boguchar. As a result two German divisions were trapped behind Soviet lines and forced to desperately fight their way out of encirclement.



In the south, the elite Gross Deutschland division was unable to fend off a major counter attack.


[1]


(Soviet armour pulling back after the Donetsk offensive)



North

At Kursk, a sequence of counterattacks again re-opened supply lines to the Soviet strong points effectively delaying the German advance by another week.






(lend-lease A-20 in action near Kursk)

Equally the fighting at Smolensk saw a series of counterblows that opened up communications to units trapped behind the German lines. North of Bryansk, the Volkhov Front continued to probe the German defences.



OOB



Main issue is that the off-map reserve is now going up by 90,000 a turn as the OOB changes shed manpower. No practical way to bring that into the game due to lack of admin points, so increasingly manpower is meaningless.

German losses remain around 33,000 men (14,000 killed), 174 tanks and 140 planes. Soviet losses were 80,000 men (21,000 killed and 34,000 prisoners), 140 tanks and 350 planes.



Shows the armies with the highest number of wins. None will make it to Guards status soon, possibly not until very late in 1943.


[1] There is something so pleasing about beating up GD. It becomes an incredibly powerful unit on which so many Soviet attacks will founder.

ORIGINAL: loki100

(lend-lease A-20 in action near Kursk)

Wow that A-20 is really off course. "The Baltic is that way guys"
Sorry to be silly Great AAR as always.

ORIGINAL: timmyab


..
(lend-lease A-20 in action near Kursk)

Wow that A-20 is really off course. "The Baltic is that way guys"
Sorry to be silly Great AAR as always.

was wondering if anyone would spot that [;)]

but to be fair there are a lot of rivers around Kursk and it is important to maintain Soviet control over vital transport links ... err ... this isn't quite working as an explanation is it?

I'm sure a tank hit by a torpedo on its top armor is out of action for good, so this makes sense
Maybe they should attach some tiny wings to the torpedoes, so they would glide to target.

Maybe they should attach some tiny wings to the torpedoes, so they would glide to target.

Might as well attach an engine to it and call it rocket then [;)]

You missed a good explanation for it Loki: the Germans brought the Landerkreuzer P.1000 into battle at Kursk and Stavka reading reports of "landships" decided on the obvious solution of sending torpedoes to sink that "ship".

Only 80 000 losses and more AFV destroyed than lost? A good turn I say! Nice to see you're stalling der Fritz so much and making them pay for every pocket.

ORIGINAL: morvael

I'm sure a tank hit by a torpedo on its top armor is out of action for good, so this makes sense
Maybe they should attach some tiny wings to the torpedoes, so they would glide to target.

ORIGINAL: Matnjord

Maybe they should attach some tiny wings to the torpedoes, so they would glide to target.

Might as well attach an engine to it and call it rocket then [;)]

You missed a good explanation for it Loki: the Germans brought the Landerkreuzer P.1000 into battle at Kursk and Stavka reading reports of "landships" decided on the obvious solution of sending torpedoes to sink that "ship".

Only 80 000 losses and more AFV destroyed than lost? A good turn I say! Nice to see you're stalling der Fritz so much and making them pay for every pocket.

I think you are both underestimating the wisdom of Comrade Stalin. That is a special 'ground torpedo' that will enter the ground, burrow along and emerge underneath German tanks ...[8D]

as to losses, they will go up again soon when vigabrand finally stops me being annoying and opening the pockets he's formed

ORIGINAL: loki100

I think you are both underestimating the wisdom of Comrade Stalin. That is a special 'ground torpedo' that will enter the ground, burrow along and emerge underneath German tanks ...[8D]

I don't know what you're smoking but it looks great! [;)]

Well just got a turn back that summarises everything that is wrong with the 1.08 version of 1942. 7 Panzer Corps that have been fighting constantly since June in the Ukraine, have been battered by constant counter-attacks, and have been collectively cut off from supply for 2 of the last 5 turns.

Then spend a turn driving from up across central Russia from the Donets to Kursk.

Apparently this means that creating stacks of 25-35, with 40-50 MP is perfectly feasible. In the meantime I struggle to manage a stack of 4 cv due to the 40NM since April and the 1942b OOB. So the Panzers storm through 4 defensive lines and manage to cut off 3 fronts with the bulk of my Gds and mobile corps, reach the Oka etc.

Now some of this was my fault, I really should know that the only solution is to run away, not just to fall back to defensive lines or look for arease of weaknesses where I might maintain some pressure.

Have I lost? Probably not. Could I still win? Maybe, but I'll face pacman tactics till well into 1943 and then solid defensive walls etc. Is this good play by vigabrand, fully exploiting the 1.08 rule book, yep, beyond any doubt.

Is the game in its current form fun? No. The hardwired collapse of Soviet morale goes on for far too long and means you get a very similar result in 1942 regardless of how well or badly 1941-2 happens. I ceased to enjoy playing this in late July/start of August when it was clear I couldn't defend anywhere and that counterattacks were simply a means to increase my losses. When there is no reward to doing anything but run the game has become too tram-lined.

Could I have avoided this particular problem? Yep, just fall back, don't contest anywhere, don't look for any possible advantages etc.

Fed up? yep. Another game down the drain. Think unless 08.05 brings some serious improvements, this is me finished for WiTE PBEM. And by serious improvements, I mean removal of the bits that doom both sides regardless of what happens.

One suggest, at the very least import the WiTW fractional ammo/cv ratio. There if you have <51% ammo you have 50% of your cv. If you have between 51-99% you lose that proportion of your cv. At the very least that won't solve all the problems that come from frictionless supply lines (I know that is beyond any patch) but if your opponent can induce a short term break you will have to spend time recovering, not be perfectly ok the turn immediately after.

Wow. Buck up, you have a few million men to spare I think. Curious to see the screenshots from what sounds like a real fiasco before making too many comments. But 3 entire fronts? Goodness, surely there's more going on here than just the 40 NM......Were these lines of your fortified or were they blobs of 1-5 CV? Further, are you surprised by a stack of 25-35CV with 40+ MP? And how is this exploiting the 1.08 rule book (or are you just referring to weak soviets)? I'm just curious what he cut through that he was able to encircle 3 entire fronts and how much of it is problems with the game vs problems with your deployment.

Quite a dramatic turnaround in this game. But don't worry, now that it's not so one sided it will surely make the AAR that much more tense (silver linings and all....)! So from the sidelines this is a really interesting development. You just need to raise your personal morale and soldier on....

Morale 45 is back in .05 though at the cost of morale 45 rifle brigades. So no micromanagement needed to have stronger red army (on average). Perhaps this will raise them above the crucial breaking point. On the other hand I bought a lot of rifle corps in 1942, even at the cost of doubled price, exactly to have more CV per hex.
Air supply and HQBU get nerfed too, so logistics should be harder on the Germans (too good rail and too large stocks remain a problem).

This is pretty much over, so I'd like to thank everyone who has left comments and so on. As always when writing, feedback is very much welcomed.

So why give up?

Well in part I am genuinely fed up with the way 1.08 is working out. It might be balanced across the entire game – I really have no view. But its far too mechanistic at this stage and the 40 NM leads to a horrible game to play, for at least 10 turns it becomes an endurance exercise. If the balance is that is inflicted on the German player later on then that is not really much to look forward to.

In part, I've tried to play with half an eye on what works under the game engine and half on what is realistic/plausible. I'm not interesting in min/max and if that really is the price of PBEM then its not for me.

Vigabrand's last offensive was brilliantly conducted but only makes sense where there is frankly nothing the Soviets can do in terms of inflicting losses or stressing supply lines to undermine the Panzer ball. Except, fall back constantly. Could the game carry on. Yep. Can I be bothered to carry on. No. In part its all too deterministic, the only way now that I will recover is due to equally hard wired damage to his morale.

In part PBEM is meant to be about fun and your opponent. There is a parallel German language version of this that till now I have stayed away from. I've been happy for vigabrand to read this as I've written it with that in mind (one reason for using symbols rather than simply show on map counters etc). Having had a look, I'm not happy to find PM messages repeated or comments like this:

Was er im englischen Forum schreibt ist ja schon lustig, nachdem er quasi die ganze Zeit sagte wie toll es ihm geht und wie wenig Chance der Gegner doch hat.

Now I can't read German but I am pretty competent in Dutch. So I can usually work out what written German means. And I don't like that one little bit. Anyone who has followed this AAR will struggle to find anywhere that I said I am a brilliant player (I'm not, can't be bothered to be honest, instead I play for fun) or made fun of vigabrand's chances. Everytime anyone has made a comment about this being over or one-sided I've tried to stop it asap.

Which really is another reason for giving up to be honest.

And please, to stress, I make no comment about what situation at the end of 1942 is needed for the rest of the game to work ... I simply do not have a clue.