Matrix Games Forums

I'll probably leave this kind of unit report alone

Quite often units are 'tailored' and it is important to see the Special Abilities as we build them. The same is true for other aspects such as Strengths and Movement.

ORIGINAL: Lobster
Just a guess but I would guess percentage of ability has to do with the number of engineer squads to total number of equipment in a unit.

At a guess I would say that the majority of the special abilities are flags set in the equipment editor and the percentage ability is based on equipment numbers as a percentage of the whole unit.

Generally I think you're right, although I don't think that calculation of the % figures are as simple as you suggest...for instance, in the screenie above, engineer squads constitute about 19% of the unit's equipment items, but it has a "Minor Ferry" rating of 99%. Similarly, the Ferry-Bridging Teams are about 19%, but the "Major Ferry" rating is 87%.

Maybe certain types of equipment are disregarded for calculation of % figures, or there are threshold equipment item quantities to obtain specific % figures? Dunno at this point...

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653
I don't think the total number of equipment has a bearing. Below I changed Heavy Rifle Squads from 4000 to 40 and it had no effect on Engineering ability.

hmmm, interesting.

I'm really out of my element here with all of this stuff, but I was poking around in Bio-Ed and ODD to see if there were any obvious clues. I found this in the ODD Equipment Editor, I hope Curt doesn't mind me posting it. No idea what it all means.

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653
Quite often units are 'tailored' and it is important to see the Special Abilities as we build them. The same is true for other aspects such as Strengths and Movement.

Sure, I understand how useful this would be, but right now TOAWxml can only expose (and edit) data exported to the XML files, not values such as the Special Abilities, Strengths, and Movement which are calculated by the game engine but not exported to XML.

I can only add these features if we obtain a very clear understanding of the relevant formulas/algorithms/values, either via reverse-engineering or input from a dev.

I still have a fair bit to do with the XML files, so this is not top priority at the moment, although I would certainly like to add it when/if it becomes possible.

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653
I'm really out of my element here with all of this stuff, but I was poking around in Bio-Ed and ODD to see if there were any obvious clues. I found this in the ODD Equipment Editor, I hope Curt doesn't mind me posting it. No idea what it all means.

Yeah, those are the equipment characteristics flags, which are exposed in the eqp files and shown in the box in the top-right corner of the "Add New Equipment" screen. That was all fairly straightforward to figure out, but the question now is how those "flags"--and the quantity of equipment within a unit that has them--translate into the unit-level "Special Abilities" shown in the Unit Report.

ORIGINAL: 76mm

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653
Quite often units are 'tailored' and it is important to see the Special Abilities as we build them. The same is true for other aspects such as Strengths and Movement.

Sure, I understand how useful this would be, but right now TOAWxml is can only expose (and edit) data exported to the XML files, not values such as the Special Abilities, Strengths, and Movement which are calculated by the game engine but not exported to XML.

I can only add these features if we obtain a very clear understanding of the relevant formulas/algorithms/values, either via reverse-engineering or input from a dev.

I still have a fair bit to do with the XML files, so this is not top priority at the moment, although I would certainly like to add it when/if it becomes possible.

I hope I'm not misunderstanding all of this, so take my comment lightly! I looked at ODD and see what you are saying [that these stats are not imported/exported], and that reminded me why I never used ODD - I would open it every couple years, tinker around a bit, realize that it wasn't totally useful, and leave it. I used it several times for putting grids on maps, but that was it. So my comment with regards to this current project is - for a simple example, if I want a unit to have a Movement Allowance [MA] of 18, I need to set the proper amount of Transport Assets, let's say Trucks. So I add 50 Trucks. Now I have to export the file, import into TOAW, check the MA and if it is 8 I have to go back to this program, add 20 more trucks and then export, check it again, etc. you get the point.

All of that isn't worth a scenario designers effort, so I would suggest to not spend time on such a process as no one would really use it. Certainly I'd rather have it fully integrated, but if it's not possible, why bother?

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653
All of that isn't worth a scenario designers effort, so I would suggest to not spend time on such a process as no one would really use it. Certainly I'd rather have it fully integrated, but if it's not possible, why bother?

Well, truth be told, I'm actually creating this for my own purpose, which is to be able to use TOAW IV as a campaign layer for tactical-level games. You all are just along for the ride--hopefully someone else will find it useful, but if not that's OK with me.

That said, if I can accommodate requests from other players without a huge amount of work, I will try to do so. If I cannot accommodate a request because we don't have the data/formula/algorithms necessary to do so, well, then I won't!

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653
...if I want a unit to have a Movement Allowance [MA] of 18, I need to set the proper amount of Transport Assets, let's say Trucks. So I add 50 Trucks. Now I have to export the file, import into TOAW, check the MA and if it is 8 I have to go back to this program, add 20 more trucks and then export, check it again, etc. you get the point.

Obviously up to you how/if you use TOAWxml, but a couple of comments:
1) you wouldn't have to insert the 20 extra trucks in TOAWxml, you could also do it directly via the in-game editor and add/subract trucks until you are satisfied; and
2) in reality you might only need to do this once or twice per scenario--you could create your base template units, check their characteristics via the in-game editor, and then copy and further manipulate the units via TOAWxml. Or do it at the end of the process to tweak all units to your taste. Or not. Up to you...

I appreciate that everyone (including me) would prefer a fully-integrated editor, and gradually we will get closer. In the meantime I'm happy to accept your comments and suggestions and will accommodate them to the extent practicable.

The number of engineers versus total units has to make a difference. Otherwise you are back at the truck situation. One engineer squad can get an entire division across a river in one day.

BTW, one way of slowing down a unit is to use the slow motorized for trucks instead of fast motorized.

ORIGINAL: Lobster
The number of engineers versus total units has to make a difference. Otherwise you are back at the truck situation. One engineer squad can get an entire division across a river in one day.

Logically of course you are correct, but that does not seem to be how the game works... You can test this real-time by opening a Unit Report in the Deployment Editor and changing the numbers around.

For example, in the headquarters unit shown in my screenshot above, I decreased the Ferry Engineers to zero, and the Major Ferry capability disappeared. I then added Ferry Engineers gradually--with 1, I had 2% Major Ferry capability, 10 = 32%, 20 = 64%, etc.

Then I restored the number of Ferry Engineers to 27 and started playing with other equipment line items, increasing various line items (MP squad, Jagdpanzer IV, Horse Team) from their current numbers up to 1000. While some of these changes had the effect of increasing the recon %, they DID NOT reduce the minor or major ferry %s at all.

So while it is not true that "one engineer squad can get an entire division across a river in one day", it appears that 27 ferry engineer squads can get 87% of a division--of any size--across a river in one day (or whatever the 87% refers to...).

I love this kind of stuff in TOAW. It is like a cult of mysteries, the darkness of which we attempt to illuminate with actions like the kind 76mm mentions in the quote below. [:)]

Cheers

I decreased the Ferry Engineers to zero, and the Major Ferry capability disappeared. I then added Ferry Engineers gradually--with 1, I had 2% Major Ferry capability, 10 = 32%, 20 = 64%, etc.

Yes, one battalion of ferry engineers = one pontoon battalion. They can lay a pontoon bridge that can get a division across a river in one day.

Of course the game treats major ferry in an abstract manner otherwise there would be different capacity pontoon bridges which would cause some degree of insanity among the player base. [:D]

I have a multitude of pontoon and engineer unit in the Barbarossa scenario and I can tell you that the major/minor ferry ability does vary with quantity.

In any event, I hope you don't lose all of your hair before you get this done. [;)]

ORIGINAL: cathar1244
I love this kind of stuff in TOAW. It is like a cult of mysteries, the darkness of which we attempt to illuminate with actions like the kind 76mm mentions in the quote below. [:)]

I also meant to mention that I think that the way they've done it works quite well--basically the number of ferry engineers serves as a "slider" for major ferry capacity--you want 2% major ferry capacity? Assign 1 ferry engineer... And so on...I expect that other capabilities work in a similar fashion. How many pieces of "stand off" equipment does a unit need to be considered to have "stand off" capability? Dunno...

Seems like the only "more realistic" (and I apply the term loosely) alternative for ferrying capacity would be for the game to take into account the volume and weight of each piece of equipment in a unit when calculating ferry capacity, which I think most of us would agree would be a bit extreme... [:D]

ORIGINAL: Lobster
Yes, one battalion of ferry engineers = one pontoon battalion. They can lay a pontoon bridge that can get a division across a river in one day.

Nah, so far I really enjoy the process, it is very intellectually challenging. The main thing is to recognize what is and is not possible...

I am, however, a bit intimidated by the prospect of working on the Event Editor...

I'm actually creating this for my own purpose ... you wouldn't have to insert the 20 extra trucks in TOAWxml, you could also do it directly via the in-game editor and add/subract trucks until you are satisfied

Understood. So similar to the other programs in the past, this won't be a stand alone editor for TOAW. Therefore, I vote that you are given access to TOAW's Editors in order to improve them. Of course, I don't have a vote and that may not be possible anyway. But at this moment the dream is really nice [8D]

I'm 100% behind your effort. Hopefully none of my comments are too depressing.

you want 2% major ferry capacity? Assign 1 ferry engineer

Along these lines, I will mention that you need 10% to get across a Major River, and an engineers capability is affected by things like Shock and Movement Allowance Remaining. I'm not sure about the effects on Minor capability as I've never payed too much attention.

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653
Hopefully none of my comments are too depressing.

[:D]

Nah, as mentioned, I enjoy the process.

And I don't disagree with you, but I can only do what I can do...in the meantime I'll keep plugging away, and we'll see what happens.

I think the Event Editor works 'fine'. Even 'well'. I would like to see how it could be considered to work better. I've worked with SC3 and it uses a non-UI [scripted] multiple file [something like twelve separate ones] system that is way more silly to use than TOAW's.

76mm, in the interest of illuminating some of the deeper mysteries of TOAW [:D], here is what I have determined regarding the auto-generation of "anti-shipping capability" ratings.

Important caveat: Anti-personnel (AP) ratings shown below are as entered in the equipment file with an editor that is EXTERNAL to the game. Entering AP values with the game's built-in equipment editor scales the ratings differently and for me, was confusing.

[center][:-] Anyone using the game's built-in equipment editor to alter the AP values is on their own. [:-][/center]

First requirement to generate anti-shipping capability: The anti-shipping flag has to be toggled on (FLAG3 has to include the value "2").

Two cases follow. The second case is in effect when the "torpedo bomber flag" is toggled on (FLAG7 has to include the value "128"), else, the first case applies.

Note that in both cases, when the antipersonnel rating is set to zero, the anti-shipping capability is still present but attacks may only be conducted against naval units.

First case -- anti-shipping on, not a torpedo bomber.

Second case -- anti-shipping on, is a torpedo bomber.

There is also a third case in which anti-shipping capability is auto-generated. This is the case in which the anti-shipping flag is NOT toggled and a (smallish) anti-shipping capability is made available based upon the AP value. I will look into that and update this comment.

Edited to add the third case. Man, what a rabbit hole this one was, but finally figured out the arithmetic.

Note these examples function for fixed-wing aircraft. I would have to test with artillery to see if the same relationship holds.

Again, with antipersonnel (AP) as entered by an external editor into the equipment file ...

the anti-ship capability is figured as the square root of (two times the AP rating), rounded down.

Example: AP is 0. 0 times 2 = 0. Square root of 0 is 0, the anti-ship rating.

Example: AP is 8. 8 times 2 = 16. Square root of 16 is 4, the anti-ship rating.

Example: AP is 9. 9 times 2 = 18. Square root of 18 is 4.2426. Round down to 4, this is the anti-ship rating.

Highest allowed AP rating is 8000 (!) This works out to an anti-ship rating of 126 after rounding down. (Higher AP ratings can be entered, but TOAW will treat them as 8000.)

Talk about non-obvious schemes ... one more piece of mystery meat illuminated! [8D]

Cheers

Anti-ship capability for artillery, as auto-generated by TOAW.

Once again, with the antipersonnel rating (AP) as entered by an external editor into the equipment file:

Anti-ship capability is the square root of (AP divided by 2), rounded down.

Example: The common equipment 150mm howitzer has an AP of 260 in the equipment file. Divide by 2 to obtain 130. The square root of 130 is 11.4018, or, rounded down --> 11. This is the anti-shipping capability.

Edit to add: Note that guns need a range of at least 5 kilometers for the anti-ship capability to manifest.

Cheers