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You flouncing off again Von Rom, just like you did sooooo many times in the original Patton thread. This whole forum must be so beneath your mighty intellect, I wonder why you ever bothered in the first place[;)]

pattons got my vote

1 of the greatest generals EVER

PERIOD

[:D]

if they had given patton supplies and a few hundred thousand gallons of gas, he wouldve gone right thru the siegfried line, into germany and personally shot that bastard hitler!



i can say bastard right lol?

ORIGINAL: marky

pattons got my vote

1 of the greatest generals EVER

PERIOD

[:D]

if they had given patton supplies and a few hundred thousand gallons of gas, he wouldve gone right thru the siegfried line, into germany and personally shot that bastard hitler!



i can say bastard right lol?

[:D]

ORIGINAL: IronDuke


Just look at the list of people we know didn't survive the end of the Third Reich. A number of middle ranking NAZIS did get away, or were never traced, but if there was such a well organised pipeline, how come Himmler, Hitler, Goebbels, Goring, Kaltenbrunner, Speer, Frank, Keitel, Jodl, Dietrich, Meyer, Peiper,
Streicher, and thousands of others failed to get out? What about Hoess, the Einsatzgruppen Commanders, the Waffen SS hierachy?

The highest ranking Officer I can think of off the top of my head was Eichmann (who Mossad found, kidnapped, tried and executed).

NAZISM did not die in 1945, but neither did it create some form of shadow state which has been pulling strings ever since. Communism did not die with the advent of GLASNOST either. Yes, there were plenty of NAZIs in German life after WWII, but that was because the number of card carrying members of the party and SS ran into millions, and you couldn't try them all, not when the cold war was erupting and we were finding a new reason to be friends with the West Germans. Rightly or wrongly, these men existed not to serve Odessa, but because it was no longer in Western Europe's interests to hunt them all down.

I am called naive. Oh, the irony....

Regards,
IronDuke

A lot of the middle and lower ranking Nazis were never prosecuted because they were the ones with the necessary administrative skills to actually run the country. Back to Bormann though, if Faragos ideas were correct, what did he actually do with all that money? Most of the former Nazis who fled to South America lived in virtual penury! Frankly, it just doesn't add up! In any case, it appears that much of the looted gold went to pay for war goods (via the Bank of International Settlements) or ended up in Swiss bank accounts with those from whom it was stolen still trying to retrieve it.

Was Pieper a Nazi? Too bad if true...

Hello egj, where did your cool moniker come from?

ORIGINAL: freeboy

Was Pieper a Nazi? Too bad if true...

Hello egj, where did your cool moniker come from?

Joined the SS in 1933. He had two brothers, both in the SS. Joined the Waffen SS (or it's historical antecendent). Selected for Officer training. Became an assistant to Himmler in 1939 so missed the start of the war, but would have had inside knowledge on what was planned for Poland.

According to American witnesses, he was still talking of final victory as he prepared to evacuate the Ardennes after the failed Bulge offensive in late December 1944.

What he felt after the infamous Armband order is anyone's guess, but it's a fairly safe bet he was a NAZI.

Regards,
IronDuke

ORIGINAL: freeboy



Hello egj, where did your cool moniker come from?

Being Eric James and playing guitar. Head over to www.rainbowbridgemusic.com for a good laugh[:D]

ORIGINAL: IronDuke

ORIGINAL: Von Rom

ORIGINAL: IronDuke


[Snipped for space]

Regards,
IronDuke

You also have a large group of very powerful individuals (former Nazis) living abroad and in Germany, who have an interest to ensure that Bormann's death "occurs" in Berlin; they are protecting their "leader".

They will also go out of their way to try to discredit anyone trying to ferret out both Bormann's existence as well as where all the Nazi loot was taken.

Remember that this is about far more than just the existence of Bormann; it is also (to a greater extent) about the existence of tens of thousands of Nazis who fled to other countries with billions of dollars, and the network they have setup since the end of WWII.

It is also about the Vatican, which aided the escape of thousands of these wanted Nazis.

Naziism did NOT die with the Third Reich.

Who? Can you name them? I bet you can't, because ultimately, that's how conspiracies thrive. Lots of "ifs" and "possibles" but no hard fact.

Just look at the list of people we know didn't survive the end of the Third Reich. A number of middle ranking NAZIS did get away, or were never traced, but if there was such a well organised pipeline, how come Himmler, Hitler, Goebbels, Goring, Kaltenbrunner, Speer, Frank, Keitel, Jodl, Dietrich, Meyer, Peiper,
Streicher, and thousands of others failed to get out? What about Hoess, the Einsatzgruppen Commanders, the Waffen SS hierachy?

The highest ranking Officer I can think of off the top of my head was Eichmann (who Mossad found, kidnapped, tried and executed).

NAZISM did not die in 1945, but neither did it create some form of shadow state which has been pulling strings ever since. Communism did not die with the advent of GLASNOST either. Yes, there were plenty of NAZIs in German life after WWII, but that was because the number of card carrying members of the party and SS ran into millions, and you couldn't try them all, not when the cold war was erupting and we were finding a new reason to be friends with the West Germans. Rightly or wrongly, these men existed not to serve Odessa, but because it was no longer in Western Europe's interests to hunt them all down.

I am called naive. Oh, the irony....

Regards,
IronDuke

ID:

I am not being dramatic when I state what I have above.

Maybe I just read too much, and then assume other people also know the same things.

However, all of what I have said is no secret and the information can be found in several good books at the local libraries.

You seem like an intelligent person.

I am not going to spend the next few days making post after post trying to explain what I feel is fairly common knowledge that most people, who are interested in miltary and political affairs as well as our past, should know about.

I can provide a list of books that are well researched and will provide you with a wealth of knowledge about post-WWII Nazis activities, the Vatican involvement as well as a host of other issues.

I do not believe in conspiracies and little green men.

I have read a number of books on this issue over a period of years.

I am not being confrontatonal here as I feel this is a vital area people should know about.

There are a lot of dirty little secrets from WWII, and there are plenty of people and organizations that do not want this info to get out.

The Bormann issue, is to me, really a red herring. Why?

He is only one man. However, what he built and created during and after the war, is even more important to know about.

And all this information has been garnered from previously classified documents.

ORIGINAL: EricGuitarJames

You flouncing off again Von Rom, just like you did sooooo many times in the original Patton thread. This whole forum must be so beneath your mighty intellect, I wonder why you ever bothered in the first place[;)]

At first I thought we could have had a decent discussion of the Bormann issue.

A number of important issues surrounding Bormann are important.

Rather than discuss the situation rationally, you just attacked Farago and that is really uncalled for.

Farago has impeccable credentials, and he and others uncovered a great deal about Bormann and what he had put together in a post-WWII world.

This is not pie-in-the-sky stuff. This is reality, and most of the information has come from previously classified documents.

Your silly approach is what eventually made me see the pointlessness of discussing it with you.

MARTIN BORMANN: NAZI IN EXILE

By Paul Manning



1) Adolf Eich­mann, captured by Israeli agents in Argentina in 1960, confirmed that Bormann [was] alive and dwelling in South America. (p.14)

2) In 1972 the eighty-five-year-old bishop of Munich, Johannes Neuhausler, made public a document of the Roman Catholic Church, which stated that Bormann had escaped to Spain. The document said, in part: Albert Bormann had awaited the re­turn of his brother Martin to Munich, and they fled from Salzburg airport. The airport had not been destroyed and there were also at least ten flights from there of the Fuehrer’s mes­sengers with official documents. All aircraft were suitable for night and long distance flights." The bishop made the foregoing statement to prove that "Bormann had enough ways and means to flee Germany, and that the Vatican had not done anything special to help him. (p.15)

MARTIN BORMANN: NAZI IN EXILE

By Paul Manning

The following excerpts are from the above book. These excerpts, based on classified documents, clearly show Bormann's organization of German industry for a post-WWII world.


The Strasbourg Conference August 10, 1944:

A transcript of that meeting is in my possession. It is a captured German document from the files of the U.S. Treasury Department, and states who was present and what was said, as the economy of the Third Reich was projected onto a postwar profit-seeking track.

Martin Bormann was now the leader in fact of Germany. Hitler, exhausted, drained of the charisma of the glory days of the thirties and the conquest years of the early forties, was going through the gestures of military leadership mechanically as his troops fell back on all fronts.

Martin Bormann, forty-one at the fall of Berlin, and strong as a bull, was at all times at Hitler's side, impassive and cool. His be-all and end-all was to guide Hitler, and now to make the decisions that would lead to the eventual rebirth of his country.

Hitler, his intuitions at peak level despite his crumbling physical and mental health in the last year of the Third Reich, realized this and approved of it. "Bury your treasure," he advised Bormann, "for you will need it to begin a Fourth Reich."

That is precisely what Bormann was about to do when he set in motion the "flight capital" scheme on August 10, 1944, in Strasbourg. The treasure, the golden ring, he envisioned for the new Germany was the sophisticated distribution of national and corporate assets to safe havens throughout the neutral nations of the rest of the world.

At the conference, Reichsleiter Bormann had added, "German industry must realize that the war cannot now be won, and must take steps to prepare for a postwar commercial campaign which will in time insure the economic resurgence of Germany."

Present were Dr. Kaspar representing Krupp, Dr. Tolle representing Röchling, Dr. Sinceren representing Messerschmitt, Drs. Kopp, Vier, and Beerwanger representing Rheinmetall, Captain Haberkorn and Dr. Ruhe representing Bussing, Drs. Ellenmayer and Kardos representing Volkswagenwerk, engineers Drose, Yanchew, and Koppshem representing various factories in Posen, Poland (Drose, Yanchew, & Co., Brown-Boveri, Herkuleswerke, Buschwerke, and Stadtwerke); Dr. Meyer, an official of the German Naval Ministry in Paris; and Dr. Strassner of the Ministry of Armament, Paris.

Dr. Scheid, papers from his briefcase arranged neatly on the table before him, stated that all industrial matériel in France was to be evacuated to Germany immediately. "The battle of France is lost to Germany," he admitted, quoting Reichsleiter Bormann as his authority, "and now the defense of the Siegfried Line (and Germany itself) is the main problem. . . . From now on, German industry must take steps in preparation for a post-war commercial campaign, with each industrial firm making new contacts and alliances with foreign firms. This must be done individually and without attracting any suspicion. However, the party and the Third Reich will stand behind every firm with permissive and financial support."

A smaller conference in the afternoon was presided over by Dr. Bosse of the German Armaments Ministry. It was attended only by representatives of Hecko, Krupp, and Röchling. Dr. Bosse restated Bormann's belief that the war was all but lost, but that it would be continued by Germany until certain goals to insure the economic resurgence of Germany after the war had been achieved. He added that German industrialists must be prepared to finance the continuation of the Nazi Party, which would be forced to go underground, just as had the Maquis in France.

"From now on, the government in Berlin will allocate large sums to industrialists so that each can establish a secure post-war foundation in foreign countries. Existing financial reserves in foreign countries must be placed at the disposal of the party in order that a strong German empire can be created after defeat. It is almost immediately required," he continued, "that the large factories in Germany establish small technical offices or research bureaus which will be absolutely independent and have no connection with the factory. These bureaus will receive plans and drawings of new weapons, as well as documents which they will need to continue their research. These special offices are to be established in large cities where security is better, although some might be formed in small villages near sources of hydroelectric power, where these party members can pretend to be studying the development of water resources for benefit of any Allied investigators."

From this day, German industrial firms of all rank were to begin placing their funds - and, wherever possible, key man-power -abroad, especially in neutral countries. Dr. Bosse advised that "two main banks can be used for the export of funds for firms who have made no prior arrangements: the Basler Handelsbank and the Schweizerische Kreditanstalt of Zurich." He also stated, "There are a number of agencies in Switzerland which for a five percent commission will buy property in Switzerland for German firms, using Swiss cloaks."

Dr. Bosse closed the meeting, observing that "after the defeat of Germany, the Nazi Party recognizes that certain of its best kown leaders will be condemned as war criminals. However, in cooperation with the industrialists, it is arranging to place its less conspicuous but most important members with various German factories as technical experts or members of its research and designing offices." (pp. 23-29)

For those who are interested, here is a link that shows how German industrialists organized in 1933 to help rearm the German economy. All documents are based on War Crime Trial Transcripts.

On the invitation of the defendant Goering, approximately twenty-five of the leading industrialists of Germany, and the defendant Schacht, attended a meeting in Berlin on the 20th day of February, 1933. This was shortly before the election of 5th March, 1933, in Germany. At this meeting Hitler announced the conspirators' aim to seize totalitarian control over Germany, to destroy the parliamentary system, to crush all opposition by force, and to restore the power of the Wehrmacht.

http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/imt/tgmwc/tg ... 04-04.html

Apparently.......nothing was learned earlier. Next step....suspension of users.