Matrix Games Forums

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
Oh, I agree that France has to defend the Italian border.

What I do not agree with is putting sufficient French troops along the border to attack in the mountains on, say, 2 Italian corps defending the passes. The farther the French go into Italy, the farther they are from supporting the very serious attack by Germany through Belgium.

2 French units are enough.
- One SE of Lyons. I like to put the 3-5 CAV here.
- One in Nice. The MTN usualy.
Both these units impose ZoC to oozing Italian units who will progress very slowly and won't be able to go very far without killing at least one of them. By the time they suceed, the Germans are usually near Paris, and the main French lines in the north have fallen back to the Seine and Vichy anyway, so the Italian progression will have been useless. I don't say that Italians can't achieve something, but that usually they don't.

3 is better (the third being in the central Alps pass W of the Italian RP), but 3 is one less to fight the Germans. If a poor TERR can be spared from the colonies, it is good here.

Normaly Marseille have a light garrison too, to prevent Italians invasions.

Never setup the northern units in the hex NW of Turin, as an advance through the alpine hex by the Italian MTN would put it oos.

it is also nice to break down the CAV and then you can cover all four hexes and stop the ooze from even starting without a land attack.

ORIGINAL: brian brian

it is also nice to break down the CAV and then you can cover all four hexes and stop the ooze from even starting without a land attack.

Good idea.

But... heu... are you sure you can breakdown the CAV ? It has 3 combat factors, so the sum of both broken down DIV have to be less than 1.5.

ORIGINAL: Froonp

ORIGINAL: brian brian

it is also nice to break down the CAV and then you can cover all four hexes and stop the ooze from even starting without a land attack.

Good idea.

But... heu... are you sure you can breakdown the CAV ? It has 3 combat factors, so the sum of both broken down DIV have to be less than 1.5.

As of now MWiF rounds that 1.5 up to 2. CiF did the same. The RAW example also says round up on the fraction. When recombining on the other hand it rounds down - a 2 factor and a 4 factor can only become an 11 factor corps. This difference may be a problem with MWiF when both Div's have been killed and the game should replace the source Corps into the general forcepool again.

Lars

ORIGINAL: lomyrin

ORIGINAL: Froonp

ORIGINAL: brian brian

it is also nice to break down the CAV and then you can cover all four hexes and stop the ooze from even starting without a land attack.

Good idea.

But... heu... are you sure you can breakdown the CAV ? It has 3 combat factors, so the sum of both broken down DIV have to be less than 1.5.

As of now MWiF rounds that 1.5 up to 2. CiF did the same. The RAW example also says round up on the fraction. When recombining on the other hand it rounds down - a 2 factor and a 4 factor can only become an 11 factor corps. This difference may be a problem with MWiF when both Div's have been killed and the game should replace the source Corps into the general forcepool again.

Lars

Another often-overlooked item with recombining is that you need a Motorized div - an Inf Div won't do - except to make an Inf Corps.

ORIGINAL: lomyrin

ORIGINAL: Froonp

ORIGINAL: brian brian

it is also nice to break down the CAV and then you can cover all four hexes and stop the ooze from even starting without a land attack.

Good idea.

But... heu... are you sure you can breakdown the CAV ? It has 3 combat factors, so the sum of both broken down DIV have to be less than 1.5.

As of now MWiF rounds that 1.5 up to 2. CiF did the same. The RAW example also says round up on the fraction. When recombining on the other hand it rounds down - a 2 factor and a 4 factor can only become an 11 factor corps. This difference may be a problem with MWiF when both Div's have been killed and the game should replace the source Corps into the general forcepool again.

Lars

And that's right.

RAW 22.4.1 says :
***********************
When you break down a corps or army, you can select any divisions from your force pools but their total combat factors can’t exceed half (rounding up) those of the corps or army you break down.
***********************

So the 3-5 CAV can break down into a DIV CAV and a MOT or INF DIV, both with 1 combat factors.

The CAV or the MOT are the only two units that can break down, as the French don't have an extra Infantry division available, and I can't remember if they have a second motorised division in 1939 either? You can't break it down and set up two divisions in two separate hexes, but you have one move before the Italians could possibly DoW. But also if you try this, one of the front-line border hexes will only be defended by 2 factors, a total even Italy can defeat, and the oozing begins; so I like to strengthen the border later, before the sun comes out in 1940; basically I like to trade out a unit and incorporate the Lyon MIL in to the southern defenses after the danger of a France First attack from Germany has passed, so if it is a casualty it reappears right near the same front. Italy might not be able to reach Paris, but anything they tie down in the south makes it easier in the north, and if they can gain that first hex across the border the French line only gets longer and longer, especially if the Germans wisely send in some 4 movement point INF. They might also have a chance to tangle with the Wavell HQ far from very much British aircover.

If the Italians are going in to France, one of the best things they can do is put a pilot in the BA 65 LND-2 plane that starts in the reserve pool.


But this is the Italian thread ... earlier this year I had been daydreaming about a neutral Italy attacking Greece on it's own, before being at war with the west. Until I realized the heavy downsides ... the CW would have an easy time of landing four corps, probably generating a US Entry chit, and aligning Yugoslavia as well.

ORIGINAL: brian brian
earlier this year I had been daydreaming about a neutral Italy attacking Greece on it's own, before being at war with the west. Until I realized the heavy downsides ... the CW would have an easy time of landing four corps, probably generating a US Entry chit, and aligning Yugoslavia as well.

Quite so. IMO, Italy should start the war doing what Italy does best, make pasta, serve the other players. Wait for signs of weakness or stupid mistakes, then pounce like a kitten on any suitable targets, and try to gain as much of North Africa as possible.

As I promised Steve to go through all the forums post of all AI for MWiF – XXX, here is the result for Italy. Some good suggestions from forum members. I have now compiled it to define 6 possible starting convoy routes for the Italian, from which the AIO will chose from.

As always if you have any comments about these convoy routes, we would love to hear them. If nothing else, you could help us decide on their probabilities.

################################################################

Italian Convoys plans/routes Global war

Route 1: Sardinia (Standard).
Route is used to get home Sardinia. Keeps a low risk profile against sudden Allied declaration of war. 6 CP in reserve.

Route 2: Sardinia and Libya.
Route is used to get home Sardinia. Keeps a moderate profile against sudden Allied declaration of war but also keeps the vital supply line to Libya open. 5 CP in reserves.
Might be useful if planning to go against Commonwealth early in the game.

Route 3: Sardinia, Libya and Italian East Africa.
Route is used to get home Sardinia. Keeps a high profile against sudden Allied declaration of war but also keeps the vital supply line to Libya open and the supply to Italian East Africa. Might be useful if planning to bring the Italian INF home from East Africa. 4 CP in reserve.

Route 4: Sardinia and North Africa.
Route is used to get home Sardinia. Keeps a high profile against sudden Allied declaration of war but also keeps the vital supply line to Libya open from two sea areas. 4 CP in reserve.

Route 5: None.
Keeps a zero risk profile against sudden Allied declaration of war. The plan is to later in the turn to go out with at least 1 CP to get home Sardinia. 7 CP in reserve.

Route 6: West Africa.
Route is used to get home Sardinia .Keeps a low risk profile against sudden Allied declaration of war but also keeps a little of the vital supply line to Libya open. 6 CP in reserve. Might be useful if planning to go against France early in the game.


Base Convoy Deployment %
Route 1 35%
Route 2 25%
Route 3 5%
Route 4 5%
Route 5 25%
Route 6 5%


Optional rules that might affect Convoy Deployment %
• In the presence of the enemy
• Limited Overseas Supply
• Rough Seas
• Convoys In Flame
• Oil tankers
• Cruisers in flames

Route 1: Sardinia (Standard).

Route 2: Sardinia and Libya.

Route 3: Sardinia, Libya and Italian East Africa.

Route 4: Sardinia and North Africa.

Route 5: None.

Route 6: West Africa.

note that on the first two turns, Italy might not actually need the resource from Sardinia. 50% of 3 Production Points creates 2 Build Points just the same as 50% of 4 Production Points. One more excellent detail I would have never realized if Patrice hadn't pointed that out on here once. Now that is assuming Italy will save the Rumanian oil on the first two turns. If Italy wants to use that in production to get 5 Production Points and 3 Build Points on the first turn for interesting builds like laying down a new AMPH, then they will need the Sardinian resource.

I think the AI should pick out Italy's first turn strategy, and THEN select a convoy deployment to match.

Cool! [:)]

My ideas:

Base Convoy Deployment %
Route 1 30 % instead of 35% Reason: Africa must be supported.
Route 2 30% instead of 25%  Reason: Africa must be supported.
Route 3 10% instead of 5%    Reason: Italian African campaign with long-term goals and possible Japanese hookup with help from Germany for taking Suez Canal area.
Route 4 10% instead of 5%    Reason: Conservative Italian Med convoy network.
Route 5 15% instead of 25%  Reason: Not necessarily in Italy's best interests to not have any convoys deployed imo, although it does add a bit of 'poker bluff' and flexibility to Italy's intentions and goals.
Route 6 5% Fine as is.


Just a few thoughts... [8D]

ORIGINAL: brian brian

note that on the first two turns, Italy might not actually need the resource from Sardinia. 50% of 3 Production Points creates 2 Build Points just the same as 50% of 4 Production Points. One more excellent detail I would have never realized if Patrice hadn't pointed that out on here once. Now that is assuming Italy will save the Rumanian oil on the first two turns. If Italy wants to use that in production to get 5 Production Points and 3 Build Points on the first turn for interesting builds like laying down a new AMPH, then they will need the Sardinian resource.

I think the AI should pick out Italy's first turn strategy, and THEN select a convoy deployment to match.

As I get it the strategy will modify the probability of the convoy route picked.

If the strategy only decided on the convoy route used you would know what strategy the Italian AI would use just by looking at its convoy setup.

ORIGINAL: peskpesk
Base Convoy Deployment %
Route 1 35%
Route 2 25%
Route 3 5%
Route 4 5%
Route 5 25%
Route 6 5%

Looks good.
Though I would decrease Route 5 to as low as 5%, and increase Route 6 (which is as good, even better, than Route 1 as it supplies Tripoli plus takes the Sardinia resource with only 1 CP) to as much as 25%.

ORIGINAL: Froonp

... I would decrease Route 5 to as low as 5%, and increase Route 6 (which is as good, even better, than Route 1 as it supplies Tripoli plus takes the Sardinia resource with only 1 CP) to as much as 25%.

After a second look, I would tend to agree with your comments on Route 6, though I would not reduce Route 5 to 5%. Giving it 10% or 15% could give a little more flexibility to AI Italy. [8D]