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ORIGINAL: Extraneous


Monsieur Froonp:

If you could please note (yet again) NOTHING I have read on these forums has mentioned or been linked to the FAQ's on the ADG site. (Thanks very much Orm for the mention that there is a FAQ)

In the thread "rules clarification list" Froonp linked the new FAQ as soon as it become available.

I do realize that you had not yet read this thread as there are so many threads on this forum but I just want to mention it anyway.

See post #610 in:
tm.asp?m=1274766

[font="times new roman"]Not #606 but #611 right? [/font]
 
[font="times new roman"]Just a FYI you can click on the post # to get a link to the exact post. [/font]
[font="times new roman"] [/font]
[font="times new roman"]Sorry Orm, I didn't get to read all 30,035 posts in this forum in the last few days. [/font]
[font="times new roman"] [/font]

ORIGINAL:  Mike Parker
 
Extraneous,
 
You are indeed your namesake.  You seem to be arguing to argue, it would be simple enough to say something like "I wasn't aware of the FAQ, that pretty much clears things up!"  Engaging in sophistry is a time honoured tradition, but this isn't intended as a debate forum.

 

Sophistry - Subtly deceptive reasoning or argumentation.
 
Forum – A public meeting or lecture involving audience discussion.
 
Troll – A person who deliberately stirs up trouble.
 

 
Mike (Troll) Parker’s first post on this forum was 4/14/2009 8:38:49 PM.
 
My first post was 7/19/2009 9:30:13 PM.
 
 
 
I stated my views.
 
Orm and peskpesk corrected me.
 
I submitted corrected views.
 
Joseignacio disagreed with me (He seems to have missed the FAQ’s post also).
 
I explained my views.
 
Orm made me aware of the FAQ’s at ADG.
 
I was insulted and slandered by Monsieur Froonp.
 
To which [font="times new roman"]I responded politely and [/font]I thanked Orm for making me aware of the FAQ’s.
 
How am I engaging in sophistry Mike (Troll) Parker?
 
 
 
Just looks like a normal discussion to me. With the exception of the warm (flame) welcome from Monsieur Froonp.
 
 

I knew about the FAQs, before I joined the forum, and it was reminded to me early when I joined by the members.

Anyway, the FAQ support my point, IMO. Metropolitan France is not the same as Metropolitan Vichy France, according to RAW definitions.

And I think we should all calm down a little. Froonp is a very reputated member and he did not call you silly or stupid, just said he thought some ideas, that deny things he thinks obvious (and me too) look silly to him, like saying "Bordeaux is not part of Metropolitan France", which sounds "a little bit weird, doesn't it?

And as for stupid, he didn't either call you that. He just said that if you called H. Rowland stupid, it wouldn't help you to seem brighter, so he recommends that you don't try to.

I see no insult, I think you are being extra sensitive here.[:)]

Yes, let's calm down, and also let's respect the work of others (quitting bashing the rules or the FAQ would be a good start).

ORIGINAL: Extraneous

How am I engaging in sophistry Mike (Troll) Parker?

Partly by the attitude that pervades your recent posts in here, the same one that adds the appelation of Troll to my name. I said sophistry is a time honoured tradition, but that this isn't a debate forum. We do not come here to win arguments, we come her to discuss thing regarding MWIF and of course tangentially WiF FE since its intimately related, and I suppose CWIF also as it sometimes pertains.

You would have been well served once you heard there was a FAQ to look at, to have indeed looked at it. There is nothing wrong with not knowing about the FAQ, the error comes in continuing to contend with someone about rules when you do indeed know there is another authority with which to appeal. Perhaps Froonp was wrong in his reading of the FAQ, perhaps there is a later entry that supercedes his (and others) but to keep harping your same point in the face of the FAQ is well just silly. Either your a silly person, which I doubt as your posts otherwise seem quite good, or your somehow upset about your ignorance of the FAQ and perhaps put out that Froonp and others were able to derail your arguments with it. The graceful and proper thing would be to just to say something like "Oh I didn't know about this FAQ, where can I get ahold of it" or something of the sort.

Perhaps its just the way you word things, but you seem to be arguing to win the argument rather than come to the truth of the matter, you seem to want to defend your erroneous positions rather than look at what is being said and realize your errors. That is part and parcel of sophistry, look up the philosopher Protagoras and his protege' Gorgias and read his writing one argumentation.

In respect for good manners I will post the short version of my reply.

I post that ONE question in the FAQ, which is clearly stated in the rules is silly and now I’m bashing the FAQ?

I post that 17.2 should be a subsection of 17.1 not a separate section and I’m bashing the rules?

As long as you call me “Mr. Extraneous” you are “Monsieur Froonp”.

I think pretty well every party in this argument has overreacted. Understandable, but of little value in advancing the AIO for France.

I think we can agree, based on RAW and the FAQ, that all ports in the 1939 France home country are acceptable bases for French BBs/CVs for avoiding the penalty to the Vichy minor/territory roll.

Let's put it behind us and move on.

And in the rush, everybody seems to have forgot my question.
When may CW DOW Vichy ?
At creation, or just after all the moves have been done.
Slightly important considering Naval units in Atlantic ports may or may not enter the Med.

ORIGINAL: morgil

And in the rush, everybody seems to have forgot my question.
When may CW DOW Vichy ?
At creation, or just after all the moves have been done.
Slightly important considering Naval units in Atlantic ports may or may not enter the Med.

Heu ??? I do not understand your question, could you be more specific please, or direct me to the post where you were more precise ? [:D]

So, without having understood your question properly, I would nevertheless answer that the CW may DoW Vichy during any allied declaration of war phase. Allied declaration of war phases are the initial phase during the allied impulse.

So when Vichy is created, we are in the end of turn phases, and there are no declarations of war possible.

But I suspect that there is something specific to your question that I did not understood [&:].

ORIGINAL: morgil

And in the rush, everybody seems to have forgot my question.
When may CW DOW Vichy ?
At creation, or just after all the moves have been done.
Slightly important considering Naval units in Atlantic ports may or may not enter the Med.

Vichy is formed in an end of turn phase. DOWs occur at the start of a side's impulse. So, the earliest would be if the Allied side moved first in the turn following the formation of Vichy and DOWed in its first impulse.

Thanks
As you may have gathered I am a rookie still, and only 1 of my co-players knows the rules like properly. Unfortunately he has played for 20 years, so he remembers ALL the rules, and sometimes mix them up. In this case its a mix of making Vichy Hostile vs Active.
Anyways, I think maybe I shall try to deduce the correct answer from the RAW, instead of posting sillyish questions.[:)]

ORIGINAL: Froonp

ORIGINAL: morgil

And in the rush, everybody seems to have forgot my question.
When may CW DOW Vichy ?
At creation, or just after all the moves have been done.
Slightly important considering Naval units in Atlantic ports may or may not enter the Med.

Heu ??? I do not understand your question, could you be more specific please, or direct me to the post where you were more precise ? [:D]

So, without having understood your question properly, I would nevertheless answer that the CW may DoW Vichy during any allied declaration of war phase. Allied declaration of war phases are the initial phase during the allied impulse.

So when Vichy is created, we are in the end of turn phases, and there are no declarations of war possible.

But I suspect that there is something specific to your question that I did not understood [&:].

I guess he wanted to declare war to Vichy in the same moment it was created, and thus, he could shot down all the Vichy ships that were coming out of port. However, I think he can do that anyway without DoW, but then Vichy would be hostile.

It has been suggested the French establish a convoy line (peskpesk Post #317):

Tasman Sea --> New Zealand Coast --> Clarion --> West Coast




It has been suggested to RB these CP to Noumea, New Caledonia, in the Coral Sea zone before the Axis installs Vichy.


If France goes Vichy this is the Axis players options for moving (the RAW says move not RB) the French CP's:

CP’s in the Clarion zone and West Coast zone move to Hiva Oa or Tahiti in the East Polynesia zone.
The CP in the New Zealand Coast zone can move to either Tahiti in the East Polynesia zone or to Noumea, New Caledonia, in the Coral Sea zone.
CP’s in the Tasman Sea zone move to Noumea, New Caledonia, in the Coral Sea zone.



After Vichy is installed either group will be out of supply they will have 2 movement and 3 range to get to Australian ports where they can be reorganized.

Euh....
For your information :
1) Ships at sea are always in supply.
2) The return to base step happens before the Vichy declaration step, so the French player have the opportunity to return to base his ships (& CP) before Vichy is declared (or not).

PS : As I'm not sure 100% of what Extraneous is trying to say, so I'm not sure I answer correctly to what he wrote.

ORIGINAL: Froonp

Euh....
For your information :
1) Ships at sea are always in supply.
2) The return to base step happens before the Vichy declaration step, so the French player have the opportunity to return to base his ships (& CP) before Vichy is declared (or not).

PS : As I'm not sure 100% of what Extraneous is trying to say, so I'm not sure I answer correctly to what he wrote.

Thank you. I should have remembered that (1) Ships at sea are always in supply (its been mentioned enough). (I will correct this now).

(2) True. Im trying to show this is not a good plan when the convoy line does not RB in Noumea and Vichy is installed.

ORIGINAL: Extraneous

ORIGINAL: Froonp

Euh....
For your information :
1) Ships at sea are always in supply.
2) The return to base step happens before the Vichy declaration step, so the French player have the opportunity to return to base his ships (& CP) before Vichy is declared (or not).

PS : As I'm not sure 100% of what Extraneous is trying to say, so I'm not sure I answer correctly to what he wrote.

Thank you. I should have remembered that (1) Ships at sea are always in supply (its been mentioned enough). (I will correct this now).

(2) True. Im trying to show this is not a good plan when the convoy line does not RB in Noumea and Vichy is installed.

It's a perfectly good plan. You just make sure all the French convoys are within 3 range of Noumea. So you need 6 Fr convoys and 4 CW (I believe it is 5 sea zones total) to run both Aussie resources to Canada. 2 more can be used to take an NEI oil to Australia for storage. Providing you remember to get the expendable Fr CA out of Noumea, that makes the 8 convoys that can return there and go FF usually 90% of the time.

I've tried this twice in a row and I'm batting 500 which is crazy unlucky IMO.

Even if you are unlucky though, the convoys are useless to Vichy when playing LOS because they can't make it back to where they would be of use. This is also a good thing.

Extraneous: I agree, if you fail to rebase the French convoys to New Caledonia then it is not a good plan. Optimal play would not allow this eventuality assuming one is using French convoys in this part of this line.

Personally, I'm not a big fan of using French convoys as an integral part of Allied convoy lines until after Vichy is established.

Just to note that in two of the last three games we have had aggressive French attacks on German ARM which have resulted in dead armour.

In one game the French paid for it by being flipped out and France fell that turn- MJ40 (oh, well, it was probably going to fall by July, anyway).

In the second game (our current one) the French got lucky (rolled something like an 16-18 on a +2-3 assault) and 'got away with it'. Germany had thrown all its bombers in as ground support so they weren't able to take advantage of the aftermath.

In both cases, I think it the exhange was worth it.

This has been discussed earlier in the thread, and the French AIO should still not consider it except under fortuitous circumstances. But it should be prepared to try it. I would expect less than 5% of games should see such a thing take place.

I am glad to see activity on the AI threads again, wish I had more time right now. I did, though, finally figure out how to email files from the middle of nowhere courtesy of the iPhone and the Air Sharing app, so I am finally ready to look for a pbem game via CyberBoard...

Meanwhile, the idea of French attacks in 1940 is a delicate one. Some of the most successful early years of the war for the Axis that I have seen have come after the French roll poorly on a brave but risky attack on the Panzers. I agree that the AI should have this card up it's sleeve, but it is one of the most critical decisions the Allies can make in 1940. Roll really well and maybe you kill a 6 BP unit .... Roll really poor and the French house-of-cards blows away in the wind and the Germans enter Paris a full turn or more early. Sometimes a French attack might completely hang up the Germans for the rest of 1940, but this would take fairly poor German play.

In Sep/Oct 40 though, this thinking should change radically however.

ORIGINAL: Extraneous

ORIGINAL: composer99

Extraneous:

Brest, Bordeaux, and the ports on the French Atlantic seaboard will not accrue penalties for the formation of Free France.

At any rate, France has anywhere from 3-6 turns to get the BBs and (if not already sunk or interned, the Béarn) to ports in France. Chances are a combined or naval can be spared in the winter to make this happen.

17.1 Creation

An Axis major power can choose to install a Vichy Government if one of its in-supply land units occupies Paris in a peace step and France is not conquered. If more than one Axis major power occupies Paris, then Germany has first choice as to whether it wishes to establish a Vichy government.

If you install a Vichy government, Metropolitan France itself is divided into 2 countries - Metropolitan Vichy France (including Corsica if still French controlled) and Occupied France. A line on the map marks the border. The capital of Metropolitan Vichy France is Vichy. Paris remains the capital of Occupied France.

Occupied France is a conquered major power home country controlled by the Axis major power that installed the Vichy government. Control of occupied France is as per 13.7.1 except that all hexes controlled by French units become controlled by the Axis major power installing the Vichy government.

Metropolitan Vichy France is the home country of a new major power ~ Vichy France.

Vichy France is a neutral major power run by the Axis major power

Free France is an alternative government also established at this time.

Free France is considered an incompletely conquered major power from now on unless otherwise specified. It is run by the French player. Free France starts at war with all countries France was at war with, and at peace with all others (including Vichy France).

French territories and minor countries already conquered by the Axis remain conquered by them.

All other French territories and minor countries may be aligned with either Vichy France or Free France.

17.2 Determine control

Roll a die for each of the other administration groups to determine who controls it. A group becomes controlled by the (Free) French player if the roll is within the range shown on this chart. Otherwise, it remains controlled by Vichy France:

I disagree with you Brest, Bordeaux, and the ports on the French Atlantic seaboard do accrue penalties for the formation of Free France.


As the Rules state:

We have arranged these rules in sequence-of-play order. Optional rules are generally in the same place as the standard rule they modify. They are separated from the standard rules by being framed in grey. All optional rules are exactly that and each option can be played in part or full provided all players agree.

Rule “17.1 Creation” France is divided into 2 countries - Metropolitan Vichy France and Occupied France.

Rule ”17.2 Determine control” supports my view with the statement “Otherwise, it remains controlled by Vichy France”.


Therefore “* ~ Subtract 2 from each die roll if any on-map French CVs or BBs are not currently in a Metropolitan French port.”

Should be read as “* ~ Subtract 2 from each die roll if any on-map French CVs or BBs are not currently in a Metropolitan Vichy French port.”

Since Metropolitan French ports no longer exist at the time rule ”17.2 Determine control” is implemented.

I'm new to the site and am confused as to what rules are currently being used in this discussion. I have the Final edition companion CD with the complete rules. Should I be using the RaW rules to reference the play of the computer version in development?