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Don't the forces at Iwo tie down potential japanese reinforcements?

Its not a bad point probably 150,000 and 3,000 AV are stuck there tied down by XXIV Corps of 1,000 AV I dont like having a Marine Div stuck there but maybe it is better to leave them there.

I need more men I really need to get 14th Army back into the fight but to do that means taking Bombay or Karachi and that is not going to be easy.

OK here is a thought after my TF's have unloaded 6th and 10th Army will take 3 - 4 weeks to take the bits of Luzon I want to take so in reality no amphib ops are going to be undertaken in this period..

I could take the assault transports to Camhran Bay after they finish unloading (sending most of the AK's to the Westo Coast on a supply run) and pick up the elements of 1st Aus Army for the invasion of India and just move directly on India

The Divs are are 80% of TOE and have fought hard but I could take probably 6 or 7 Divs straight to India take a base and let them recuperate IN India...

Now this has several advantages.

1. The transport shipping at least is not lying idle at all and now it only has to return to PI I can afford the month or so it will take to drop them off.

2. After they take a base they will probably need to rest for a while BUT they will have no shipping requirement (I could probably bring in LCT's not being used on my Oceanic invasions to support any small amphib ops needed)

The downsides

1. Elimination of defeated jap Garrison at Camranh Bay may take longer.

2. 3rd Fleets Carriers would have to cover the invasion as 5th Fleet is not strong enough and will probably need refit time afterwards

3. Probably removes the possibility of MASSIVE amphib operations below Manila (not that I am thinking that way at present.

I will review this later tonight and see just what kind of state the Aussies and Kiwis are in.

I may need to adjust which forces go where but this feels like it has real possibilities....

Andy

You know th emore I think of this the more doable it sounds timing wise those LST's and LSD's are going to be doing nothing for the next few weeks with a little shuffling I could make this work.....

ORIGINAL: Andy Mac

I Really really really hate the reaction move especially when it is so dammed stupid a landing ground that is under threat from an armada of LBA a flleet under strict orders to stay and guard the vulnerable landing and what does my best Admiral do he and the fleet carriers with my best fighter pilots go haring off south after a single Carrier.

Aghhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

WTF was Halsey thinking of I am NEVER giving that fuckwit a job ever again

Umm... You didn't have to give him the job in the first place. Want a conservative TF, pick a conservative leader. (And yes, before everyone jumps in, I understand that a conservative leader doesn't avoid all problems. But... Put Halsey in charge, and, well, Halsey's in charge...)

Give Halsey a land based HQ and never let him get out from behind the desk.

I would but the action off Java cost me a LOT of Admirals (and the leader bug before it was fixed) I am now quiteshort of good air rated Admirals.
 
Andy

Wow, an admiral shortage -- something unheard of in the annals of war.

OK the plan for the next few months total deployable strenght 44 Divs of which 7 Divs are tied up in essential garisson duties and 3 are tied up on Iwo.

I will try to re evaluate Garrison requirements replacing some of the combat Divs tied up in those areas with large base forces.

So 34 Available deployable Divs rising to 39 when 1st US Army activates and 47 if I can reopen Bombay.

3 Broad Task Groups

15th CW Army Group the reconquest of India with 8 Divs rising to 16 if I can open a port.
25th US Army Group objective Japan - 29 Divs rising to 34 when 1st Army Activates
Rear Area Command - 7 Div Equivalents in required garrisons (I will try to squeeze this force for more troops if I can)


15th CW Army Group

1st Australian Army OBJECTIVE INDIA - Total forces 8 Divs for India
11th Airborne Div (Independent)
I Aus Corps (4 Divs)
III US Corps - (3 Divs)

14th Army (Activates after Bombay/Karachi Captured)
XXXIII Corps (3 Divs)
XV Corps (3 Divs)
III Corps (2 Divs)

25th US Army Group

8th US Army (Operations off the West & South Coast of Japan incl Batan Island and Okinawa) - Total force 11 Divs
V Amphib Corps (4 Divs)
I Amphib Corps - (4 Divs)
XXIV Corps – (3 Divs) - Independent Iwo Jima

6th US Army (Luzon driving on Clark PI Garrison) - Total Force 6 Divs
I US Corps – (3 Divs)
XIV US Corps (3 Divs)

10th US Army (After Driving and capturing Clark Field no Objective Identified) - Total Force 12 Divs
IX US Corps – (3 Divs)
XI US Corps – (3 Divs)
X US Corps – (3 Divs)
III Amphib Corps – (3 Divs)

1st US Army (Pending activates 90 Days) - 5 Divs
Armoured Corps (Pending 90 Days - 1 Inf and 2 Armoured Divs)
NORPAC Corps (2 Divs)

Rear Area Group

ABDA Corps – 3 Divs (Independent Malaya/SEA Garrison)
Borneo/Sulawesi Corps - 1 Div
Australia Command - 2 Divs
NZ Command - 1 Div

The main strategic question is what to do with 10th US Army after I have finished the mountain campaign in northern Luzon and secured Clark.
 
I am intending on taking no forces out of the PI until these two objectives are achieved....

5th Fleet centred around Wasp and several CVE's probably with Colorado as Flag will support the re invasion of India probably with a "loaned" Carrier/ Light Surface TF from 7th Fleet.
 
7th Fleet will be supporting the re supply of PI and escorting cripples and supply convoys and performing ground Attack missions in and around PI with 3 Carrier TF's and 2 Light Surface TF's.
 
3rd Fleet at Pearl will become the new striking arm when its cripples are fully repaired and worked up eta 1 month it will then move to the PI to replace 7th Fleet which will take over responsability for damaged ships.
 
I will need to carefully juggle the surface assets between 3rd and 7th Fleets given the numbers of ships with battle damage in 7th Fleet.
 
Andy
 
 

Actually the more I think on it I think I need to expedite moving a heavy SF TF out of Pealr to reinfoce 7th Fleet to many ships have battle damage and I am vulnerable to hit and runs even after the neutralisation of Takao.

Of 7th Fleets major surface assets Only Wisconsin/Alaska are truly combat ready in a pinch California and Richelieu can be classed combat ready but the other heavies are out of action and need a dry dock.
 
I will need to review the cruiser strength
 
I could perhaps send California with Colorado as close escort for the Indian Invasion TF...
 
Andy

10th Army is driving on Vigan/Loang I hope to take Laong today

6th Army is driving on Clark from the South so I hope to continue to drive forward there as well.

OK apart from that its bee quiet Maryland took 2 torps which definitly puts her out of the rest of the war.

I have ordered a Bombardment TF to hit Laong tomorrow

OK about India I have been talking to PZB over the last few days because I screwed up....

I sent the email below to PZB it was curiosity nothing more

"Can I ask a question ?

Several times I reconsidered a re invasion of India but always talked myself out of it on the grounds that you would fall back to the NW and end up holding just my entry points both of which are urban terrain and therefore to all intents and purposes impregnable unless I bring most of the allied army which I am not willing to do.

This would be a crazy historical position but is probably in keeping with the game.

Would that have been the way you would play it ? Its more curiousity than anything else now as the time has passed."

PZB respoded

"Expected that you would land in that small port south of Bombay..Panaji and march your army to Karachi. Nothing much I could have done since the re-capture of both Bombay and Karachi would bring the British back into the war.

I have now 2 regiments in both Bombay and Karachi as well as support troops and base units. Got a tank regiment in immediate reserve and a battlegroup in Panaji. In case of invasion I could do nothing more than move the tank regiment to the invasion front. The Brigades defending Calutta and Diamond Harbour have already been divided to protect nearby airfields. Could march perhaps 2 semi Bdes north to Dehli - Bombay - Karachi, but not sure this would have arrived in time nor done much good.

Would never have left a major base without garrison troops...
So 150k troops could most likely have done the job, but you would have had to capture a large airfield to provide CAP. My bombers would have hit your troops constantly and your cv's would have had to LRCAP them at the same time they defended against kamis and naval bomber strikes."

Unfortunately between my question and his answer as you can all see from the above I decided that the shipping position probably did allow for a smash and grab in India.

So I sent the email back below with a turn without really thinking about it to much...

" Oh and by the way although I said I had given up on India don't count on i I may still go back you never know..."

PZB was slightly irked as he felt he had given away his defences when I said I was not going back. Having re read the correspondance he is not wrong that IS part of the implication of what I said.

My response

"Just re read what you told me about India I hadn’t really taken in how much detail you had provided.

My question was more aimed at determining whether you were going to play fortress Karachi/Bombay and stop me getting my off map reinforcements when I was planning my major invasion about 18 months ago I considered a full bore invasion but decided against it on grounds you would fort up in Karachi and Bombay and I would never be able to take these bases.

6 months ago I was talking about a limited attack on Ceylon and then a landing in India to grab points

3 months ago I was still considering it again before I went for Hue and the Battle of Bangkok wrecked 1st Aus Army (BTW I WOULD NOT have gotten Hue had I not sunk 2 Divs at sea I am convicnced that and your decision not to retreat the Bangkok army towards Ubon were the decisive moments in the battle after the damage 1st Aussie Army took at Bankok.

India is constantly in my thoughts because it bugs me but it’s the balance of time v shipping v limited LCU’s – The forces I would need to commit are large….and while you may only have 2 Bdes in them now I would have to assume 5 or 6 Divs of Japanese troops in India which eventually means 3 Divs behind level 9 forts in an Urban Hex so my calcs every time I do it tell me 900 AV x 3 (Forts) x 4 Urban = 10,000 AV or 2,500 AV if out of supply at most I can spare 8 Divs so that means not going to happen.

As you have been open with me and I did lead you on a little I will give you some details of current and historic plans….

You miread my plan as to location but intent was spot on I was planning on landing in the south between Madras/Calcutta to try and reverse what you did to Wobbly Panaji wasn’t really ever in my thoughts getting a base with air cover is vital on D Day if I come for India now it will be in one of four ways

A surprise Direct Assault on Bombay or Karachi by sea (probably to risky given you still own Java and Timor and my LCU’s are forward committed)
A landing at the base between Madras and Calcutta
A Landing in a non base hex next to Madras
A landing at Trincomalee or Colombo as a precursor to a points grab

Given other plans 1st Aus Army would be spearhead but minus the attached III and XIV US Corps that were under command for SEA and Malaya campaigns so probably 6 – 8 Divs maximum I cannot spare a sideshow more – if in fact I do it. The real issue is my shortage of Corps HQ’s and Divisons I am currently re organizing my Corps and Armies as I need more !!!!

Now you could save me the bother evacuate Karachi and then the Aussies could concentrate on invading Japan and not get involved in a fight in India (which the may well do anyway as I have prepared detailed palns on several occasions never to come to much) !!!!

p.s. if my lack of clarity and the answer that ensued is a serious matter for you I will abandon any putative plans I may have had its not a huge issue (I should probably remain concentrated now my 2 Army Groups have joined hands so to speak anyway)

Of course if the Japanese were to abandon Karachi and allow 14th Army to deploy then an invasion would not be required……………<joking honest >

Apologies for leading you on."

Now 2 issues arise.

1. I am in the wrong and although PZB has said its ok to do what I like because he will adjust would it be morally wrong to go ahead and invade?

2. Practically having told him my plans would I now be insane to try it !!!!

Happy to hear any thoughts - no question on re reading my original email I gave the impression I had abandoned India (which to be fair I more or less had when I sent it !!!!)

The driver for re considering India is not PZB's e mail to me but my own shipping/LCU availability but that doesnt remove all my responsability.

I would consider going for India as planned. Don't make any changes based on what PzB told you. That way both of you can claim that you are acting on good faith. An added bonus would be to see what the "game mechanics" do once you do recapture Karachi. You had a lot on units reappear once you recaptured Malaya. Will it happen again??

Just my $.02 [:D][:D]

I think you have been upfront and if PzB has had enough time to redeploy as he sees fit, then I don't see a problem with going ahead.

As far as the invasion itself goes, you have to weigh the pros and cons as you always do. Will capturing Bombay/Karachi provide with substantially more troops that what you have to employ to take those places? If so, then its worth it. I understand that ships just continue the arrival countdown but I don't know if that's true for troops and air units.

If the number of troops that would appear is equal or less than the number required, then to me its not worth it. Take the troops you would have used and employ them elsewhere.

Chez

The question one has to ponder, is are all his answers totally true, or does he use some of his responses to confuse and demoralize you?

I personally never have discussion with my opponent on troop dispositions and always take comments with grain of salt, but as always its
your call on the morale ground of did he say to much? Has he always told the truth and never mislead?

I agree above, if your forces where already prepping then continue, he should not have responded so openly personally, as he probably
would not have responded that way on the conditions in any current theatre. If he was truthfall consider it some japanese diplomat
leaking information.

But in the end its your call, in the future I would rely more on your reconn, and support group then the opponent for accurate intel.

Just two cents worth, take it for what you will.

As long as you stick to the invasion plan you made before he gave you this info's it should be ok IMHO.

Thanks Guys

The plan is/was always will be to grab Yanam and allow my forces to rest and rebuild there.

The forces alone don't compnesate for attempting this so its a points grab pure and simple.

We did a few turns on Sunday and it was relatively quiet.

My Forces in the PI are driving forward but the roads are getting churned in the Mountains forces are lucky to achieve 7 - 15 miles a day so its slow going.

My Southern Spearhead is 60 miles from Clark but is awaiting Infantry support.

Northern Spearhead is at Vigan also awaiting Infantry support.

Camranh Bay is cleared and troops are moving to Saigon to rest as shipping is assembled.

I will be lifting 4 Aus Divs to India within the week more may follow but I am not sure they are in a fit state to deploy.

Apart from that am moving massive numbers of AK's and TK's back to the West Coast passing through the gap between Bonins and Marianas covered by several fleet carriers.

Andy

OK the plan for India in full...
&nbsp;
Aus 1st Army with 4 Aus Inf Divs will load up an land at Yanam loaded on 15knot+ transports in&nbsp;3 seperate TF's covered by 2 Carrier TF's each TF will have a reinforced Division of 1 Inf Div, 1 Independent Bde, a base force&nbsp;and 1 Tank Regt plus 20,000 tonnes of supply.
&nbsp;
Each landing force will be capable of independent landings but will be focussed on taking and securing Yanam.
&nbsp;
A 5th Division (1st Aus Cav Div) will follow on in a second wave accompanied by a 6th Div - (11th US Airborne Div)
&nbsp;
In total this will mean the force committed to India will consist of 4 Inf Divs, 4 Inf Bdes, 1 Cav Div and&nbsp;1 Airborne&nbsp;Div, 4 Base Forces and 4 Armoured Regts
&nbsp;
After securing a port and AF at Yanam I will assess the state of my forces.
&nbsp;
My intent would be a lightning campaign picking off coastal bases at the same time as 11th Airborne siezes lightly guarded interior bases thus messing up PZB's LOC.
&nbsp;
Depending on resistance my main force will probably move West to try and secure Madras - recognising that Madras is a tough nut as it is urban
&nbsp;
If Madras falls then all India is vulnerable.

If you can strike NW from Yaman (had to try to look it up on CHS, but its not listed&nbsp;[:D]) and take Hyderabad and then Pangim on the other coast to isolate the SW corner of India, you will be in very good shape. He will have to try to contain you; withdraw into Bombay and Karachi; or pull back into the the Calcutta area. I say option 3.

What kind of reinforcements do you expect to get if you recapture Karachi??