Matrix Games Forums

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

Interesting... an idiot who can discern levels of comprehension.

ORIGINAL: warspite1

I could quite justifiably get a tad miffed at that comment. But I do not wish to fall out with you and so would instead ask you please to explain what exactly the issue is with the unit / units.

No I am not talking about the SNLF Force / Forces as clearly neither of us are experts and we have to agree to disagree.

I am talking about post 2327 and the latest subject of your ire and which has led to the latest unpleasantness.

ORIGINAL: warspite1

ORIGINAL: Extraneous

"the Japanese Special Naval Landing Force (SNLF) - which were generally deployed"

When using a singular subject you can't use "were".

You can use either
"the Japanese Special Naval Landing Forces (SNLF) - which were generally deployed" or
"the Japanese Special Naval Landing Force (SNLF) - which was generally deployed"

warspite1

I wasn't. I was talking about units. Please re-read the sentence.

Good catch on Guard (guard) though. I also prefer parachute to airborne too - I will amend.

ORIGINAL: Extraneous

You cannot use a singular subject and then use a verb for a plural subject.

The Sentence

Due to the scale of World in Flames and the unit sizes in play, the depiction of units of the Japanese Special Naval Landing Force (SNLF) - which were generally deployed in numbers smaller than a brigade - has to be necessarily ahistorical. It is right that these units are included within the game however.

What was deployed? Answer: The Japanese Special Naval Landing Force (SNLF) units.

How were they deployed? Answer: In units of brigade size or smaller.

This makes the subject of the sentence: the Japanese Special Naval Landing Force (SNLF) units.


Which means that the sentence should be written:

In a Plural Format
the depiction of the Japanese Special Naval Landing Forces (SNLF) - which were generally deployed in units of brigade size smaller -

Or

In a Singular Format
the depiction of the Japanese Special Naval Landing Force (SNLF) - which was generally deployed in units of brigade size smaller -

ORIGINAL: Extraneous

ORIGINAL: warspite1

I could quite justifiably get a tad miffed at that comment. But I do not wish to fall out with you and so would instead ask you please to explain what exactly the issue is with the unit / units.

No I am not talking about the SNLF Force / Forces as clearly neither of us are experts and we have to agree to disagree.

I am talking about post 2327 and the latest subject of your ire and which has led to the latest unpleasantness.

Post 2327

ORIGINAL: warspite1

ORIGINAL: Extraneous

"the Japanese Special Naval Landing Force (SNLF) - which were generally deployed"

When using a singular subject you can't use "were".

You can use either
"the Japanese Special Naval Landing Forces (SNLF) - which were generally deployed" or
"the Japanese Special Naval Landing Force (SNLF) - which was generally deployed"

warspite1

I wasn't. I was talking about units. Please re-read the sentence.

Good catch on Guard (guard) though. I also prefer parachute to airborne too - I will amend.

I cannot explain this any clearer than this.

You cannot use a singular subject and then use a verb for a plural subject.

The Sentence

Due to the scale of World in Flames and the unit sizes in play, the depiction of units of the Japanese Special Naval Landing Force (SNLF) - which were generally deployed in numbers smaller than a brigade - has to be necessarily ahistorical. It is right that these units are included within the game however.

Just for everyone's information: A brigade can be as large as two regiments with attached smaller units or as little as single battalion with attached smaller units.


What was deployed? Answer: The Japanese Special Naval Landing Force (SNLF) units.

How were they deployed? Answer: In units of brigade size or smaller.

This makes the subject of the sentence: the Japanese Special Naval Landing Force (SNLF) units.



Which means that the sentence should be written:

In a Plural Format
the depiction of the Japanese Special Naval Landing Forces (SNLF) - which were generally deployed in units of brigade size smaller -

Or

In a Singular Format
the depiction of the Japanese Special Naval Landing Force (SNLF) - which was generally deployed in units of brigade size smaller -



[:-] Don't get the idea I am yelling. I just need the bold font to highlight the information. [:-]

ORIGINAL: Zorachus99

Why not change the wording to reflect that these units were elite, and were rarely operated above brigade strength?

ORIGINAL: paulderynck (the troll)

Which is right?
1. The Japanese Special Naval Landing Force (SNLF) units - which were generally deployed in numbers smaller than a brigade etc.
Or
2. the Japanese Special Naval Landing Force (SNLF) units - which was generally deployed in numbers smaller than a brigade etc.

You've conveniently left out the word "units" in your format examples. (Likely because you're still fixated on your pointless preoccupation with whether they were a Force or they were Forces.)

And yet you say yourself the subject of the sentence is "the Japanese Special Naval Landing Force (SNLF) units" which can just as easily be expressed as: "the units of the Japanese Special Naval Landing Force" and thus the correct way to write it is: "the units of the Japanese Special Naval Landing Force which were generally deployed... etc." And indeed in post 2327 Warspite stated clearly he was talking about "units", and indeed that's how he correctly wrote his draft.

Isn't there somewhere else you can go to practice your innate brand of ludicrous non-esoterica?

ORIGINAL: warspite1

warspite1

Okay, I think I see the confusion.

My sentence:

Due to the scale of World in Flames and the unit sizes in play, the depiction of units of the Japanese Special Naval Landing Force (SNLF) - which were generally deployed in numbers smaller than a brigade - has to be necessarily ahistorical. It is right that these units are included within the game however.

Your further clarification (with my responses in bold and "units" underlined).

What was deployed? Answer: The Japanese Special Naval Landing Force (SNLF) units. Correct. I am trying to explain how World In Flames can use SNLF units, when those units were, in reality, never operated in anything more than a brigade strength. I am not therefore talking about the SNLF as a whole here – but the component parts.

How were they deployed? Answer: In units of brigade size or smaller. Correct as per above.

This makes the subject of the sentence: the Japanese Special Naval Landing Force (SNLF) units. Correct. I am talking about the 1st Kure or the 2nd Yokosuka or whatever.

Where I believe your version is wrong is that when you then provide the sentence you have missed off the first part – and it is that first part that defines whether Were or Was is appropriate.

So if we remove the contentious issue of the SNLF Force or SNLF Forces and look again at the sentence I hope you can see that what I have done is correct – it’s the depiction of UNITS of the SNLF – which were….. I cannot say UNITS of the SNLF which was.

ORIGINAL: Extraneous

Troll ~ a person who sows discord on the Internet by starting arguments or upsetting people, by posting inflammatory, extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community (such as a forum, chat room, or blog), either accidentally or with the deliberate intent of provoking readers into an emotional response or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion.

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

ORIGINAL: Extraneous

Troll ~ a person who sows discord on the Internet by starting arguments or upsetting people, by posting inflammatory, extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community (such as a forum, chat room, or blog), either accidentally or with the deliberate intent of provoking readers into an emotional response or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion.

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

Same way I knew why you chose it as your pseudonym.

ORIGINAL: Extraneous

Moving on as requested.

warspite 1 post #: 2311

warspite 1 post #: 2323


Warspite1 refers to 1st SNLF Div and 2nd SNLF Div.

What he means is 1st SNLF and 2nd SNLF division counters. I hope your write ups don't show them as actual Divisions.

In military terms there are Divisions and divisions:
Divisions ~ consist of two or more brigades or regiments. Division is abbreviated as Div.
divisions ~ consist of two Companies.

In WiF a division counter represents any unit of Division size or smaller.

Warspite1 refers to 1st SNLF Div and 2nd SNLF Div.

What he means is 1st SNLF and 2nd SNLF division counters.

I hope your write ups don't show them as actual Divisions.

In military terms there are Divisions and divisions:
Divisions ~ consist of two or more brigades or regiments. Division is abbreviated as Div.
divisions ~ consist of two Companies.

In WiF a division counter represents any unit of Division size or smaller.

ORIGINAL: warspite1

And here is the 1st SNLF Division counter write-up:


[2171] [Japanese 1st Special Naval Landing Force Marine - by Robert Jenkins]
.P Due to the scale of World in Flames and the unit sizes in play, the depiction of units of the Japanese Special Naval Landing Force (SNLF) – which were generally deployed in numbers smaller than a brigade - has to be necessarily ahistorical. It is right that these units are included within the game however, and World in Flames allows the Japanese player to build one SNLF corps and two divisions.
.P This counter represents a fictional 1st SNLF Division, while counter 2172 depicts an equally fictional, 2nd SNLF Division. The corps unit appears on counter 2175.
.P During World War II the Japanese did not operate an autonomous marine branch in the way that their US counterparts did. However they did make use of naval troops. Such troops were used to land at vital points – often ahead of a larger force – to seize key objectives.
.P The forerunners of the SNLF (Kaigun Tokubetsu Rikusentai) were used for the first time during the fighting against Russia at the start of the 20th Century. Having proved their worth there and later in Manchuria, the Japanese began raising SNLF units at each of their four main naval bases. Counter 2175 provides a list of the main SNLF units that were available in December 1941.
.P As said above these units, which ranged in size from 750 to 1,600 men, were operated mostly individually, although on a few occasions units were combined.
.P The SNLF were used as elite infantry in the early stages of the Pacific War and were involved in almost all the early campaigns as the Japanese seized one objective after another and inflicted defeat after defeat upon the Allies.
.P Trying to piece together a definitive list of all the SNLFs, their numbers, their deployments and their ultimate fate is next to impossible. However the list below gives an indication of the main operations undertaken by these elite units.
.B Conquest of the Philippines - 1,400 men of the 1st Kure SNLF, and a similar number from the 2nd, took part in the invasion of the Philippines in December 1941.
.B Conquest of the Dutch East Indies - 3,500 men of the combined 1st and 2nd Sasebo SNLFs combined with the 850-strong, parachute-trained 1st Yokosuka SNLF to capture the island of Celebes in March 1942. The 2nd Kure SNLF took part in the earlier Battle of Tarakan.
.B Conquest of Timor - 850 men of the 3rd Yokosuka SNLF were parachuted onto the island.
.B Conquest of Borneo - 750 men from the 2nd Yokosuka SNLF landed on British-owned Borneo in December 1941.
.B Guam - 370 men of the 2nd Maizuru SNLF assisted the capture of Guam in December 1941.
.B Wake Island - 450 men from the 2nd Maizuru SNLF attacked, and were repulsed by, US the US Marine garrison in December 1941. Reinforcements were used for the second attempt later that month, in which 1,000 men from the 2nd Maizuru were deployed - this time successfully.
.B Midway - had the Battle of Midway gone as planned for the Japanese, a mixed force of navy and army troops would have attempted to seize the island. The navy troops would have been provided by the 2,800 men of the 2nd Combined SNLF, made up of the 5th Kure and 5th Yokosuka SNLFs.
.B New Guinea - Elements from the 3rd and 5th Kure, 5th Yokosuka and 5th Sasebo SNLFs (1,500 men) took part in the Battle of Milne Bay in September 1942. This was one of the first defeats inflicted on the Japanese in a land battle.
.B The Solomons - Elements of the 3rd Kure SNLF took part in the initial landing in the Solomon Islands (May 1942). After the American landing on Guadalcanal in August 1942, many SNLF units were dragged into the hopeless fight for the island chain and were bled white, including the 7th Kure, 4th Maizuru, 6th Sasebo and 5th Yokosuka.
.B Defence of the Gilbert Islands - 1,112 men of the 6th Yokosuka SNLF (re-named the 3rd Special Base Defence Force) and 1,497 men of the 7th Sasebo SNLF were wiped out, almost to a man, while defending Tarawa Atoll in November 1943.
.B Defence of the Marianas - Both of the parachute-trained Yokosuka SNLFs (1st and 3rd (merged into the 1st)) were destroyed defending Saipan in June 1944.

ORIGINAL: Smokey2

Warspite

Don't know if this is what you are looking for. It is a summary description of the Territorial Forces raised by NZ. It excludes the 2NZEF (2nd New Zealand Expeditionary Force) forces that saw action in Nth Africa and Italy (2nd New Zealand Division – initially the New Zealand Division) and the Pacific (3rd New Zealand Division)

As part of the preparations for the possible outbreak of war in the Pacific, the defensive forces stationed in New Zealand were expanded in late 1941. On 1 November three new brigade headquarters were raised (taking the total in the New Zealand Army to seven), and three divisional headquarters were established to coordinate the units located in the Northern, Central and Southern Military Districts.
• The division in the Northern Military District was designated the Northern Division, and comprised the 1st and 12th Brigade Groups. The 1st Brigade Group had been formed prior to World War II, and the 12th Brigade Group was one of the new headquarters; both these units were part of the Territorial Force and were manned by part-time reservists.
• The division in the Central Military District was designated the Central Division, and comprised the 2nd Infantry Brigade and 7th Brigade Group.
• The division in the Southern Military District was designated the Southern Division, and comprised the 3rd and10th Brigades, and the 11th Brigade Group.
• [Give the Kiwis kudos for their imaginative divisional naming system][:D]
The New Zealand Army was further expanded following the outbreak of the Pacific War. The Territorial Force was fully mobilised on 10 January 1942, and reinforced by 7000 men who had originally enlisted in the New Zealand Expeditionary Force for overseas service. The role of the Territorial Force was to counter any Japanese landings in New Zealand, and it was organised into both mobile and fortress units. The Home Guard would support the Territorial units in the event of an invasion.

About April 1942 the three divisions stationed in New Zealand were transformed into mobile formations and renamed, and the Northern Division became the 1st Division; the Central Division became the 4th Division and the Southern Division became the 5th Division respectively. Until September Territorial Force units across New Zealand were held at eight days notice to respond to an invasion, and defensive positions along the country's coastline were permanently manned.

The forces stationed in New Zealand were considerably reduced as the threat of invasion passed. During early 1943 each of the three home defence divisions were cut from 22,358 to 11,530 men. The non-divisional units suffered even greater reductions. The New Zealand Government ordered a general stand-down of the defensive forces in the country on 28 June, which led to further reductions in the strength of units and a lower state of readiness. By the end of the year almost all of the Territorial Force personnel had been demobilised (though they retained their uniforms and equipment), and only 44 soldiers were posted to the three divisional and seven brigade headquarters. As the war situation continued to improve almost all the remaining Territorial Force units were disbanded on 1 April 1944.

Smokey