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I hope that String doesn't read this thread?

And BTW what is that composite US Div? How they got to India?

its 31st US Regt, 4th USMC Regt and 192nd and 194th Tank Bns plus a seperate Regt two 2 FA Bn's and an US Army Base Force coming in from Capetown to act as roundout.
 
It will take 6 months to rebuild in the meantime its acting as garrison for Hyderabad
 
String and PZB are now not looking at the other AAR as I want to talk about comparative strategies.
 
To a large degree its speculation because I don't know what their exploitation objectives will be. Depending on which way they go my plans will probably change to some extent.
 
Andy
 
 

Up until now I have been more or less ignoring China (not my favourite theatre) to my cost well given PZB's actions there I need to react so plans are afoot.
 
In other news I am pre positioning forces to cover the likely exploitation attacks that I care about.
 
India
Ceylon
Perth
NZ
Fiji
Tahiti
 
An attack on one of those will get a reaction pretty much nothing else will be allowed to interfere with my plans
 
Forts, Mines, Troops and Supply as well as fuel are being moved to these locales and have been since day 1 I will defend these locations against most attacks

When I get enough PP's
 
41st and 1st USMC to NZ
32nd and 27th to Australia
Amercal and probably 24th to Suva
25th will stay on PI until relieved
87th Mountain will go to Tahiti
 
other forces will be added as I find PP's and shipping I want each of these locations to have 3+ Divs plus air support forts and mines
 
Priority after these forces are in place will probably go to finding another Div for Australia and NZ

Andy Mac,
 
Sorry, I've held out this long, but I just can't any more.
 
Everytime I read the thread title..."this time India will stand"...I can't help but recall the Rocky and Bullwinkle Show when Bullwinkle, dressed in tails, plunges his arm into a top hat turned upside down (as per a magician's act) and with extreme confidence engages in the following immortal parlay:
 
Bullwinkle:  "Heh Rocky, watch me pull a rabbit out of the hat"
 
Rocky:  "Oh no...not that trick again.  It never works."
 
Bullwinkle:  "But this time it'll work for sure..."
 
and instead of pulling a rabbit out of the hat, he pulls a growling lion out of the hat instead...which he then proceeds at great speed and with extreme embarrassment shown all over his face, to shove straight back into the hat, and then says
 
Bullwinkle:  "Next time."
 
Yep, brings a smile to my face every time.
 
Alfred

[:D]

I know this might be impossible but you know how I am.... Is there any possibility to mass the forces you have covering against invasion of Ceylon, India and those US round-outs and attacking somewhere like Java or Sumatra?

A spoiling attack, at this time, might really throw a spanner in his works forcing him to redeploy assets, delay or weaken his attacks and generally, indirectly, buy your forces more time to really toughen the defences elsewhere. Even a limited attack which went aground, captured a few bases and then, before KB could arrive on the scene, loaded back up on ship and sailed back out west under |CV cover would leave him having to leave significantly stronger forces in Java/ Sumatra etc and having to make sure each of his attacks ( India, Ceylon, Oz ) was strong enough to overcome the force you had landed in Java/Sumatra ( in case you deployed it en masse against his invasion ). This would leave him having to weaken each invasion in order to find enough troops for garrison duty in Java and Sumatra whilst simultaneously strengthening each invasion to be sure to overcome your maximum defensive force ( his estimate of which will have increased as you've shown him a significant new force he won't have calculated for ). This dichotomy will force him to cancel at least one of those invasion, buying you greater strategic freedom and the opportunity to attack elsewhere. If you do so then you'll complicate his strategic situation even more, force him to redeploy even more, weaken the spearhead even more and get him reacting to you and losing the initiative.

Long-term plan I know but is something along those lines a possibility? I hate seeing forces spread about in defensive positions when there's any possibility for an attack.

[:D][:D] its possible is the honest answer but its very high risk.
 
Remember I dont get the Amphib bonus so I would need to mass most of AP and AK ships to do it which affects my abuility to reinforce Centpac s those ships are the best ones for unloading.
 
Also my units are all under strength units have large numbers of disabled troops and are low on support weapons. Only the two Australian Divs and maybe 1 US Div, 18th Brit Div and 7th Armoured Bde is ready for attack now which is not a lot of force.
 
Indian units are low XP (so low that they need tome to train and low on TOE) short of heavy and medium arty and my armour has no tanks.
 
Even the US units need time to train and recover disablements.
 
Having said that is it possible - yes probably but max 2,000 AV invading say Java covered by 4 USN CV's and 2 RN ones leaves me with three problems
 
1. An at best attritional air battle that I would struggle to break even in because of lack of pool density in key types
2. By doing this I am killing any 1943 offensive so I would be attacking in early 42 at the expense of 43
3. Allied squad and other devices are very limited I probably cannot stop my forces being attritioally destroyed in early 42 - Even a Div can become combat inneffective very quickly.
 
I guess its my view that an attack is high risk not only from the perspective of naval actions but also from land and air sides.
 
I have little strength and attacking Java would use it all.
 
(Part of this is my personal approach of not attacking unless the units attacking are 100/100 at start with at LEAST 10% of all devices surplus in the pool, and for air I want a full Sqns worth of each type I commit in reserve)
 
Once I attack I want the reserves and fresh replacements to keep going no matter what - risky shoestring operations just cost the allies men and ships they will need for properly constituted and supported attacks later)
 

I would suggest that:

1. I amn't talking about invading now... I'm talking about invading AFTER he has moved his troops from Java/Sumatra to other theatres and Java/Sumatra are very weakly defended. This is a spoiling attack, not an attempt to gain new terrain etc.

2. He will have far, far less than 500 AV defending any single base in Java/Sumatra, thus 2,000 AV would be a shocking force to bring into the region and should be able to run riot... Especially if you went for a limited objective like taking Palembang and then retreating, allowing him to retake it --- incurring OIL, REFINERY and INDUSTRY damage on each occasion.

I amn't suggesting you stay around and fight... I am thinking much more of an op which runs as follows:
a) Land at Oosthaven and Merak.
B) blitz north into Palembang and then back to Oosthaven.
C) Blitz south through Batavia and Soerabaja and end up in one of the western bases on the island.
D) Evacuate from Oosthaven and western Java before the enemy can land their strategic reserve.

Hold out the threat of landing and wrecking Java again... as you shouldn't have lost many forces at all since you've run away before the enemy's land reaction forces can arrive on the scene.

3. Fair enough, if you wait to run a properly consituted operation I'm sure it'll succeed. It is just a pity that this condemns you to a year of sitting and prepping while he also preps. I think that sometimes you might find that going with what you have now finds the enemy so unprepared that you actually succeed more effectively than if you waited a year and attacked with a huge force but attacked right into the teeth of the huge defences he has spent that year building.


Anyways, just wanted to suggest it as it struck me as a golden opportunity for a counter-attack which would attack the enemy's critical weakness ( his economy ). Losing and recapturing those oil, refinery and industry areas would utterly wreck them and that'll pay huge dividends in 1943. Holding Java and Sumatra isn't on the cards but thoroughly wrecking them and then running away could be. Hence, a spoiling attack.

Nemo. it's part D that is the difficult bit. Andy would almost certainly be doing this without air supremacy in 42.

Oh its not a bad idea and it would sieze the initiative but the risk is to high for me and I think you underestiamte how hard it would be
 
And PZB faced it in his last gamne when his opponent counterattacked java so PZB would be aware of the possibility of something like it and would welcome it.
 
I currently have about 25 ships capable of Amphib Ops and about another 20 total in the next 9 months - so 45 Amphibs - thats enough to  carry a 4 Div Assault force but it would mean stripping every other theatre.
 
But my main concern is the risk reward pay off and the loss of my few offensive assets in a place where they can be cut off by sea and destroyed - at best my CV's can achieve parity with the IJN and with the loss of 7 BB's at PH plus Repulse and POW I am short of surface ships.
 
But it comes down to I would need to commit the cream of my LCU's to even give this op a chance and do so close to major japanese air bases at Singapore without carrier superiority
 
With the new Land movement routines I could not possibly get ashore land take more than one base before I am facing naval and air attacks on my invasion.
 
If he committed a major part of his fleet ready reserve of LCU's and AF to a NZ or PH operation then it might be possible but otherwise its just to risky for me

Dont underestimate the blitz north part this isnt stock moving anywhere takes time and only one of the units is armour.
 
Marching even in move mode to Palembang from say ossthaven is a week+ its not all even major road - so its probably more like 2 weeks so say I am spotted 1 day out
 
You are talking what 3 days to unload, 14 days to march to Palembang say it falls in one day
 
Thats over two weeks - no matter where KB is it will be back and fighting by then,
 
Java is a better option for that as its further away from Singapore and the bases are closer so you would stage at Capetown and go straight into Souther Java landing at Loemadjang with its lvl 4 AF take that on day one air bridge in mediums from Norther Australia and go all out for Soerbaja
 
Maybe using marine Paras to take bases in the Flores for PBY bases
 
Andy

If you hold Northern Australia and can base 17's and 24's at Wyndham, Derby and Broome then maybe its doable - the only real issue is if its obvious to me that java is more vulnerable than Sumatra I figure it will be obvious to PZB as well.
 
Plus aprezto tried it last time

Since it was me that invaded Java against PzB in '42. I can categorically say that it is a tough nut. initially I did very well, but as Andy points out, the aircraft pools aren't deep enough in AE. They weren't deep enough in vanilla. The main difference was I intended to stay, not get in and get out. But the point was that I could not secure Java in time.
A different beast, as PzB had air transport in abundance and the WitP engine was very new in those days - I lost my carriers and the main part of my surface fleet to the pathfinding route on retiring to base (they decided to go to the East of Java rather than staying to the west) with obvious consequences.

Wobb I agree but the more I look at it the more doable it looks IF I am willing to take the risk - it would be a hell of a risk.
 
I need to go do some maths on my device pools.
 
If I was willing to cannibalise a couple of units and focus all my replacements into a second Corps could I get an assault force of 1 Brit, 2 Aus, 2 Indian, 2 USA and 1 USMC Div ready in time plus 2 Armoured bdes plus 2 - 4 Tank Bns
 
Or lets turn it around whats the earliest daye I could have a force like that ready and what surface and CV assets would I have to get it through t o Java.
 
Time for a bit of staff study work on logisitics and replacement pipelines I will do some desktop planning tomorrow to try and work it out.

With AE the biggest issue you have to overcome is the unloading model of all those troops and getting enough fuel and supplies ashore before you lose air supremacy. So lots of naval support.
I used Tjilijap as my initial landing, but I think that was not enough, you need to be landing in two locations.
You will also need a location that can allow transference of short legged ACs to Java. No use unloading them from crates if he torches them on the ground (the ones you can transfer from carriers are probably not sufficient to hold air supremacy long enough to unload the boats).
So I would recommend Christmas Island and the other one further West as I would imagine PzB will gun for Northern Oz after what Qball has pulled against Cuttlefish.
However, those locations have obvious flaws with their dislocation from anywhere else.
Ultimately I found this to be the biggest flaw in my plan. I had taken Wingapu (sp) and Darwin was my major port. I had two regiments defending it. He got air and naval supremacy after the redirection movement fiasco and then took this island back. Then Java was on its own. He then just wore me down.
Thinking on this. Potentially it is beneficial to actually target the best ports on the EAST side of the island for quick capture, such that you seriously curb his ability to do such things as fast transport, or fully fledged resupply/reinforcement TFs. So Potentially a direct invasion of Batavia and Soerbaja (shudder, just the thought of this scares me).
He is likely to have a ready reaction force at Singapore.

My preference as a play style is to sit tight defend and launch limited probing attacks in late 42 culminating on properlly co ordinated and organised attacks in43/44/45. In any war game I am better on defence than attack always have been - thats not to say I cannot attack but its not my natural inclination.
 
Thats how I play.
 
I can be adventurous but it is relativelly infrequent and it tends to get me in trouble more often than not.
 
In these two games especially where I am also new to the game in terms of PBEM I will tend to be conservative and play it safe - my forces are not unlimited - my game v PZB and Pauk taught me that and my own influence in AE has probably made them more restricted so I need to think and plan carfully.
 
An offensive in 42 that goes wrong and scuppers a late 43 offensive is a bad thing.
 
So I will plan and scheme and prepare and get ready and then use a sledgehamer to crackeach walnut in turn
 
 
 
 
 

ORIGINAL: Andy Mac

Burma Corps has basically got 9 Bdes of decent infantry plus the BFF Bde and various Burma Rifles Bns

Plus the Chinese 5th Corps in support which is basically a weak Division.

My intent is to pull this force back as surrepticiciously as I can try and make him concentrate before he hits Burma.

The three Indpt Bdes will ultimately head towards the Akyab front
17th Indian Div will head to Imphal (one Bde Gp already there)
1st Burma Div will act as rearguard and pull back in the general direction of Imphal
5th Chinese Army will pull back in parallel with 1st Burma Div eventually heading for Ledo.

Smaller forces will support the Burma Div in its pull back trying to keep up the deception plan as long as possible.

To this end the AVG will fight it out over rangoon performing hit and run operations into Rangoon.

IRL when BURCORPS ended up in Assam it was a wreck - I want it fighting fit and ready for action after this plan is further along and I have a better idea as to what I got out of Singapore I will re formulate plans for defending India.

Ultimately I may sacrifice some smaller units to rebuild one of the Malaya Divs or to provide depth in my replacement pools.

Andy

One bit of advice. If you have not already done it. Do not ever change the prep location for your undertrained units. Leave them where they are prepped for because as soon as they reach 100 they will all begin to train up no matter where they are located. I made the mistake of changing a few of my retreating Indian brigades from their Burma locations to Imphal and they are still stuck in the low 30 exp level because they have not reached 100 prep. Everybody else, (Oz, Indian and remaining Burma forces is at least in the high 40 to 50 range. Now that they are trained I am resetting the prep locations.

You probably are aware of this but just in case....

Aye I agree
 
PZB is still in Singapore I have had a couple of turns but nothing stupendous.
 
 

ORIGINAL: Andy Mac

In India I have 5 Indian Bns and 3 British Bns in various Garrison units.

As soon as they have upgraded to Indian 42 Squads they will be disbanded to flesh out the Divs on the Madras Front

I will do the same to the remnant of 11th Indian Div that I pulled out of Malaya in total that will increase my Indian Army pool by about 150 Sections

I will need to scare up a few units to replace them in vital garrison locations but as more troops arrive this can be done

My main issue is that I have 5 on map or newly arriving Divs that are seriously short of Infantry and the sooner I get them up to strength the sooner their XP stops gettign diluted by replacements the sooner they are combat ready.

Between 11th, 23rd, 19th, 7th and 20th Indian Divs I am short 665 Indian Rifle Sections and 47 British Infantery Sections

My replacement rate is 48 per month and I have 83 Sections in the pool at that rate you are talking a year to get all those units up to strength in Infantry [X(][X(] BUT I need to maintain 108 squads in the pool until all my units have converted to Indian Inf 42 Sections - this is vital as the Indian Inf Section is piss poor and you need the 42 upgrade to give them any chance

I could speed that up by prioritising and doing them one at a time and I probably will.

23rd Indian Div will be brough up to strength 1st as it can then move from 'Beach' Div to active Div status 

9th will be last on the list and if it had more infantry I would be tempted to disband it as well as 11th but I think I will play it by ear whether I do that.

Andy,

I am at June 1 in my Pbem so I will give you my take on India. IMHO India is so very weak in March of 42 that there are ripe opportunities for Japan there. The real problem for the Allies is that there are just not enough troops on hand (especially aircraft) to hold Colombo against a focused Japanese attack. If you reinforce Colombo, then you have basically stripped out the Delhi plain and Japan can invade by both sea and overland via Burma (too easy for supplies to flow).

The question becomes what is more important? I think it is Colombo and I think this is what the Japanese player should shoot for. I can so no real long term benefit by invading India proper as it just leaves Japan an open ended land campaign that can never be won. Unlike WITP, Japan just cannot afford to give the Allies a lot of broad land fronts like China, Russia, Norther Oz, India where the Allies can use their land and land base air assets early in the war to grind away. What does matter that India is fighting the Japanese at Calcutta or Imphal? India will eventually stiffen and start to bleed Japan. Colombo is the only place to take because, it requires an invasion to lose it back, and as long a Japan hold Colombo the Allies are stiffled in SE asia.

So, as the Allies I think the focus for defense shoud be Colombo first at the expense of India proper.

The other point is that what is possible for Japan in March of 42 becomes virtually impossible by May 1942. If he has not hit you hard in India by then, then chances are he can't. In June of 1942, my forces in India are pretty strong. Not full strength but strong enough to hold. I highly advise sending major American air reinforcments to India early in the game--day one. At least three fighter units and three to six bomber groups.

I choose not to disband any Indian units. Leave them prepped for their original locations and they will all be at 50 exp by May 42. Give replacements to about half of them at first and turn the others on after you have built up a core force.

The light Indian armor units fill up with Stuart I tanks and are very useful. Fill them up first as you have a good supply of stuarts. Leave the big armor regiments til last.

It is worth fighting and dying in Burma to delay the Japanes as long as possbile. If I were the Japanese player and the Allies did a complete sir Robin in Burma, I would head directly for Colombo and then come back and deal with North Burma. The allies just have no fleet or airpower to stop a quick rush of Colombo.

Also, what about the two Australian divisions? Are they needed in India or Oz? Unfortunately they are needed in both locations. Perhaps sending one to each location. Who know? I feel comfortable with one in Dacca early in the game but Oz needs help to depending on where Japan is headed. I don't feel Japan can do both so you have to out guess your opponent there.
My thoughts....