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I was of course kidding but will do all my best to stop him, be sure of this

Yes, I am very lucky he made that mistake and sent his AGN Panzers to that bottleneck, trap. But hadn't he moved them, you would see MANY of my hordes (the ones you see right now to stop him up there + some more, I very much suspect) in front of them. To me this is an axiom: look for the most dangerous units (aka the main threat) and concentrate your forces to more or less contain them. Success is of course not guaranteed but you have to try it. If you don't then right, what could stop the "German supermen"... Obviously nothing... [:D]

So you see weak airborne brigades because I don't fear his infantry at all [:)] One little push here, another there and that's all. Now if he brings tanks that's another story. I will simply apply my axiom.

[center]Turn 8[/center]
[center]7 august 1941[/center]

Well, no big changes on this turn [:)] But what happened up north -in Leningrad area- explains why I am still sort of optimist (at least here) [8D]

Oops, wrong screenshot, sorry [:D] So, this is why I am rather happy in the north. Definitely I love these panzers near the Narva River! [:)] Hmm, I think there were 4 panzer units, so he is diverting one of them, apparently.

2nd ACR doen't mind if I discuss screenshots. Just no discussion of strategic intent.

Thus:

Right hook?[;)]

I am rather tired today so won't do my turn [:)]

Right hook? I am not good at guessing things and don't have a crystal ball but I suspect that's very improbable. I mean... the only forces which might do that are his panzers near Velikie Luki (AGC northern panzer army that is)... I haven't pasted a screenshot of that area... but he's advanced a fex hexes there... and gaps are appearing... so that means not enough infantry. I think a right hook under the current circunstances is simply impossible. But still, I am not good at guessing things [:)]

ORIGINAL: 76mm

TD, no intent whatsoever to take anything away from you, you've done great, and certainly no intent to imply you've selected "easy" opponents...its just that in my limited experience, with a really aggressive player, concentrating your troops near his is an invitation for him to encircle them, and I don't think either of your opponents have done much of that...

I'm not saying Sovs should engage in wholesale retreat, but you gotta be careful.

This is from Senno's AAR and I obviously do NOT want to hijack HIS AAR to discuss my own strategy [:)] Not even sure if 76mm's is going to read this. Just in case.

I think I am being VERY prudent (in fact NO big pockets after the frontier district massacres [;)]). Being next to the most dangerous enemy units (panzers) does not automatically mean a certain destruction... I will use this analogy, which I already used on a PM I sent to Senno a few days ago: it's like the gazelles... A good strategy they use is running around the lion itself! If they do that it's because it apparently works.

So, believe it or not, I know pretty well what I am doing when I am concentrating my hordes around the most dangerous enemy units. On my first game it was MUCH more complicated. I still didn't know when and where I was SAFE [8D] But now I am starting to know this [:)] It's a subtle but very important thing if I want to stop the Germans (in my NOOBISH opinion, of course). So far it is working. In fact on this turn I will be retreating a portion of my Western and Bryansk Fronts. NOT around Vitebsk and Smolensk though.

According to Alfonso, Moscow might be safe right now. But I need to be sure. So I am pretty certain that IF I hold Smolensk (obviously not surrounded) until turn 13 included, Moscow is definitely safe... So this is going to be my vital mission in the center... And the good thing is that I think it can be done, under the current circunstances that is.

ORIGINAL: TulliusDetritus

I am rather tired today so won't do my turn [:)]

Right hook? I am not good at guessing things and don't have a crystal ball but I suspect that's very improbable. I mean... the only forces which might do that are his panzers near Velikie Luki (AGC northern panzer army that is)... I haven't pasted a screenshot of that area... but he's advanced a fex hexes there... and gaps are appearing... so that means not enough infantry. I think a right hook under the current circunstances is simply impossible. But still, I am not good at guessing things [:)]

thought I'd raise the issue as you have no infantry south of Lake Ilmen down the Pola in the screenshot.

Not sure of your reserves situation of course.[;)]

Looking forward to the next turn.[:)]

No strategic reserves at all [:(] But on the next 3 weeks I will be receiving like 20 divisions I think. Totally useless? That's better than nothing. And they can create ZOCs after all and that per se slows the enemy down.

Anyway, I think I could divert perhaps 10 or 15 divisions from the Fronts north of the Pripyat Marshes if I really needed them... Still, I don't want to do that unless I REALLY need them.

TD, thanks for moving this discussion to your thread, I am indeed following it! I find the topic of aggressiveness by the Sov player rather interesting...

I have to say that my opinions are based on all of one PBEM game and reading a few AARs, and thus might be wildly incorrect. But I don't think that you've faced an opponent that has reduced encirclements to an art form, as some of the German players have. As I've said, I think you're doing great, but I will be interested to see if your style of play holds up against various styles of German opponent.

And frankly, in general I don't think that counterattack threats by the Sov player are a real deterrent to German players, because the threat is just not serious enough. I would be interested to hear what other players think.

Pardon me for hijacking.

I'd really like to see a game between TD's current opponent and 76mm as an AAR now. Sounds like a challenge to me.[;)]

Not a challenge at all.

I'm not going to post much in this thread, because I am afraid to comment on TD's or 2ACR's tactics and strategies because I'm reading both AARs and don't want to give any spoilers to either side. That said, I'm following this AAR with great interest, good luck TD!

76mm, I don't think 2ndACR needs me to defend him but here I go: his AGS massive encirclement was superb, in my opinion. He totally destroyed my Southwestern Front, so fair play [:)]

Yes, I think the "agressive" play is indeed interesting. In fact it is perhaps the key (I might be wrong though) when you're the Soviet and are playing the first 17 turns. Anyway, we should make the difference between "agressive" and "kamikaze", because they are not the same thing.

The thing is, if you don't mass your forces around the most dangerous units (aka panzers), what is going to stop them from maneuvering (lots of MPs) and therefore surrounding your forces? A constant retreat, in my opinion. And that automatically means the German player will then be totally free to grab Moscow, Leningrad or whatever he wants [8D]

In fact I am not really counter-attacking. It's more about placing my forces in places which I consider vital to stop my opponent. Pure counter-attacks (aka attack enemy stacks), so far I only did 2, I think.

Another German player in this same situation would slaughter me? That I don't know. And you are possibly right, by the way [:)]

All I can say is that so far concentrating my hordes around the most dangerous units is working for me... as long as you are prudent and do NOT allow your opponent to surround these many forces.

Sabre, much more experienced than me, says various lines are needed. So that's maybe the answer [8D]

Still, you cannot allow the panzers to do what they want. You MUST try to contain them: one turn here another turn there. If you don't, I am pretty certain you are doomed.

ORIGINAL: TulliusDetritus
The thing is, if you don't mass your forces around the most dangerous units (aka panzers), what is going to stop them from maneuvering (lots of MPs) and therefore surrounding your forces? A constant retreat, in my opinion. And that automatically means the German player will then be totally free to grab Moscow, Leningrad or whatever he wants [8D]

In fact I am not really counter-attacking. It's more about placing my forces in places which I consider vital to stop my opponent. Pure counter-attacks (aka attack enemy stacks), so far I only did 2, I think.

I think we're really saying the same thing then...I don't think that the Sovs should constantly retreat, but sort of stay "in the face" of the German player, which I think is what you're saying as well (the "counterattack" wording kind of confused me). That said, I can't say that this strategy has worked very well for me in my single PBEM, so I will be re-evaluating. Hence my interest in your AAR.

ORIGINAL: TulliusDetritus
All I can say is that so far concentrating my hordes around the most dangerous units is working for me... as long as you are prudent and do NOT allow your opponent to surround these many forces.

Sabre, much more experienced than me, says various lines are needed. So that's maybe the answer [8D]

Heh, this is the hard part for me: "...as long as you are prudent and do NOT allow your opponent to surround these many forces." I just think that if you are close enough to slow down the enemy, you are close enough to be surrounded. I think multiple lines are the way to go, but it often impossible to put together until fairly late in the season. And I by no means have anything bad to say against 2ACR, but it seems (at least from the single AAR I'm reading by him) like his style of play is different from some others, more of a "punch a hole and drive deep" style rather than "focus every move on bagging more Sov units" style. That is what I meant when I said I didnt think he was as aggresive as others... And it is very possible that this observation is simply incorrect.

ORIGINAL: TulliusDetritus
Still, you cannot allow the panzers to do what they want. You MUST try to contain them: one turn here another turn there. If you don't, I am pretty certain you are doomed.

Could not agree more, I just have a very poor understanding thus far of how to achieve it. For instance, I've read in several threads that you should also keep at least one Sov unit in contact with each Panzer div. I do this, but don't fully understand what good it does; while it obviously forces them (or more likely, some accompanying unit) to attack before they can move, if you placed your units one hex away, they would have to pay to enter your ZOC before attacking, which would seem better. I guess having a unit touching the panzers causes them greater fatigue and attrition, but is that the main reason?

ORIGINAL: 76mm

TD, thanks for moving this discussion to your thread, I am indeed following it! I find the topic of aggressiveness by the Sov player rather interesting...

I have to say that my opinions are based on all of one PBEM game and reading a few AARs, and thus might be wildly incorrect. But I don't think that you've faced an opponent that has reduced encirclements to an art form, as some of the German players have. As I've said, I think you're doing great, but I will be interested to see if your style of play holds up against various styles of German opponent.

And frankly, in general I don't think that counterattack threats by the Sov player are a real deterrent to German players, because the threat is just not serious enough. I would be interested to hear what other players think.

Chances are the German players that think this haven't faced a Soviet player capable of doing it effecively yet. It takes time to really learn what you can do with the Soviets in 41. The various really good Soviet players will vary somewhat in their tactics, but they all have one thing in common, aggressiveness.

Whether it's replacing bad commanders and mounting an army level assault with the best units available onto select weak Axis units, or using a series of wave attacks to push back or rout weakened German units, or using infiltration with mobile units to interdict and/or cut supply, or using feints to draw off enemy forces, or using massed air attacks, or a combination of all the above and then some, the Soviets are capable of causing the Germans a lot of grief prior to the blizzard turns.

And those counterattacks will provide guards units, IIRC even in the fairly short RtL PBEM I got 4 guards units in the end.

Ok, well... some people have sort of scared me [:)] Encircled's opinion that maybe I should withdraw my front in the center (HQ buildup thing) [X(] and Senno's right hook!

Soooo, up north what do we have? On one hand I have the useless panzers in the bottleneck. BUT, I am pretty certain that my opponent has already realized they don't do anything good there... so he will possibly relocate them and put them to good use elsewhere. Still, I want him to think this maneuver is tying many of my hordes, so I don't want to completely divert many of my forces there. So on this turn I am only "discretely" sending two monster tank divisions to the vicinity of Pskov [8D]

I have also followed Mynok's advice and now all the important hexes around Leningrad will be building forts (Fortified regions and other units) [&o]

I'm also isolating his only Panzer division near Pskov. It should be ok: the 7th cavalry will rescue them, no doubt. In fact I don't want to attract a lot of enemy units to this place, if you know what I mean

EDIT: oops, the screenshot is wrong: you should read ROKOSSOVSKI (28 Army boss) instead of Konev (Northwest Front boss)

The Finnish No Attack Line east of Lake Ladoga [8D]

ORIGINAL: TulliusDetritus

Ok, well... some people have sort of scared me [:)] Encircled's opinion that maybe I should withdraw my front in the center (HQ buildup thing) [X(] and Senno's right hook!

I can't take credit for the right hook. I just wanted to raise the issue after looking at your screenshot, TD.[:)]

Other finer minds have developed it.[:)]

It looks like another fine job you've done in gumming up the works for another few turns.

The highwire act continues. But you seem a member of the Flying Walenda's.[:)]

Good game!

Senno, I still think catastrophe might be awaiting just around the corner [:D] I will only be safe if on turn 15 or 16 he is still far from Moscow and Leningrad [8D]

I notice that you have built a lot of forts at 16 ap points each dont you think that it a waste of valuable ap points?
Manstein63