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That attack doesn't sound right, maybe it was a glitch where the game didn't take mud CV reduction into account.

So with 60+ defensive combats per turn, presuming 95% arent receiving SU support, we are either saying that a) support units are a pointless addition to the game and wouldnt change anything (which would be good to know to save on all that intricate micromanagement I enter into on this side of the game), or that b) the cumulative effect of literally hundreds of SUs being sent to support combats per turn will have a substantial impact on the figures and results produced?

I hope it's the latter, but perhaps you're right its the former.

What I'm saying is that support units will generally have a CV of 10-20 or so at best, so 4 of the best support units are not going to change the tide of a battle in the same way that another division might.

There is also not really a "cumulative" effect, as they would change each battle by a few dozen CV's tops, and it's unlikely most battles would then turn out differently, also considering that the support unit comment influenced either side, so if you now get support units in battle, so does your opponent.

The thing to keep in mind is that support units are generally only battalion size (with many Soviet "regiments" actually being battalions by Western standards), so if you bring 4 to a battle, you end up bringing a single reinforced regiment to battle. They can tip the scale in your favour in a close battle, but don't expect them to win your battles for you, that's what the on-map units are for.

"What I'm saying is that support units will generally have a CV of 10-20 or so at best, so 4 of the best support units are not going to change the tide of a battle in the same way that another division might."

There is also not really a "cumulative" effect, as they would change each battle by a few dozen CV's tops, and it's unlikely most battles would then turn out differently, also considering that the support unit comment influenced either side, so if you now get support units in battle, so does your opponent."

I'm talking about the cummulative effect of 60+ battles in which, say, 50 are not receiving support when they should be. I'm not saying this will make the difference between holding the line or not, but it would surely have a notable cumulative effect on casualties on both sides, and the difference between holding and retreating in certain hexes. And to clarify - this bug affects DEFENSIVE support units only, so in the 60+ battles the Soviets have had all the support they can muster.

What I'm saying here is that perhaps you are right that the effect of this is insignificant. But the implications if you are right is that the entire support unit system has an insignificant effect on the game. Which is a conclusion I hope is wrong.

"The thing to keep in mind is that support units are generally only battalion size (with many Soviet "regiments" actually being battalions by Western standards), so if you bring 4 to a battle, you end up bringing a single reinforced regiment to battle. They can tip the scale in your favour in a close battle, but don't expect them to win your battles for you, that's what the on-map units are for."

I am by now very experienced with what support units are, what they can do, etc, so am not expecting extra divisions to show up. But one of the most important things about SUs is not their CV value, but the fact that they can bring heavy artillery. A couple of batallions of howitzers can indeed make the difference in a key battle, as can a heavy panzer battalion.

If currently none of these are showing up to help the defender whereas they are for the attacker owing to a bug, I dont think any of our other observations about manpower, losses, etc are valid. Only once the bug is fixed can we look at the results of a game like this once more and make true observations.

The bug has been fixed many weeks ago. Wait for the upcoming megapatch.

ORIGINAL: Keke

The bug has been fixed many weeks ago. Wait for the upcoming megapatch.

And that has what baring in the debate about the results shown in this AAR exactly?

ORIGINAL: squatter

ORIGINAL: Keke

The bug has been fixed many weeks ago. Wait for the upcoming megapatch.

And that has what baring in the debate about the results shown in this AAR exactly?

Hopefully stops you moaning about it in this very AAR.

I'm not sure how good you are at processing arguments and information, so to clarify: the debate between ComP and I here is not bemoaning the existence of the bug, but rather over how accurate the results shown in this AAR thus far are, given the bug's existence.
 
Bye!
 

I'm fine with the discussion. Especially since AAR most likely stands for Alien Arsewhooping Report.......[:D]

Here's that combat. Looking at it again, it's fine. I was remembering the starting CVs not the final ones. It makes sense now.

He attacked there again.



Better odds for sure...makes me wonder if I ought to drop some supplies on those guys and see if they keep tying up units for a bit.
Longest I've ever seen isolated units hold out!

Here's German-only pools...figured that one out.



Not great but we got 65k men into the front line units this turn. Should help the CVs a bit.

Mud is really giving me a respite for now. Have to get that bulge eliminated and my center pulled back to more defensible spots.

Turn 18 was sent back to Oleg last night. I've not had a chance to update the AAR, but we are still slowly backing out of the bulge in the south center. 8th army is pretty much 100% behind the Dnepr now and I've bolstered 1st panzer and 6th army to try to contain the bridgehead at Dnepropetrovsk in the south. I've also shifted some of the panzers, including GD, south from the bulge to back up the Rumanians and some thin Germans down there.

but rather over how accurate the results shown in this AAR thus far are, given the bug's existence.

it seems that you are GREATLY overestimating the impact of this bug. There are a lot more serious tweaks done.

Sorry for hijacking..

Sorry to continue the hijack Mynok.

Helpless: yes, you may well be right, but all I've got to go on is what I've seen in the last couple of turns of my PBEM before I paused it waiting for it to be fixed (I think you saw the post where I put up my results).

Thing is I dont know what everyone else is seeing, hence I put the 'if' in my statement:

"This is a good point. In fact, if BA was suffering from the bug the anywhere near the extent I recently have (in which around 90% of combats were not receiving defensive SUs), then really all analysis of the balance of this scenario is null and void until the bug is fixed."

Mynok, might be worth looking out in your next turn how many of you battles register SUs showing up in defence

Regarding the fix, what would be really useful would be to know what are the odds of you receiving SUs in defence, and how many, if say your corps HQ has, say, five SUs attached with leader initiative of 6?

ORIGINAL: squatter

Sorry to continue the hijack Mynok.

Helpless: yes, you may well be right, but all I've got to go on is what I've seen in the last couple of turns of my PBEM before I paused it waiting for it to be fixed (I think you saw the post where I put up my results).

Thing is I dont know what everyone else is seeing, hence I put the 'if' in my statement:

"This is a good point. In fact, if BA was suffering from the bug the anywhere near the extent I recently have (in which around 90% of combats were not receiving defensive SUs), then really all analysis of the balance of this scenario is null and void until the bug is fixed."

Mynok, might be worth looking out in your next turn how many of you battles register SUs showing up in defence

Regarding the fix, what would be really useful would be to know what are the odds of you receiving SUs in defence, and how many, if say your corps HQ has, say, five SUs attached with leader initiative of 6?

From what I am seeing, defensive SU don't benefit from fortifications nor terrain for initial CV calculations. Not sure if intended.

Things that might affect the game are quite worth discussing here, both specifically and in general, so no hijacking involved. I'm definitely going to keep an eye on it since I'm playing defense. Right now, mud is making the attacking minimal.

Hopefully the mud keeps up a few more turns. I kinda dread what a turn of snow thrown in there will do.

I am more a defence guy so I guess on the future I could be trying this '43 campaign as the doom... er, the Germans, sorry [8D]

And I'm an offense guy.....maybe we should start it after 1.04 comes out. [:D]

As you can tell, the German defense cannot rely on hordes. [:'(]

Yes, that's what makes this campaign even more challenging... Where are the [German] reserves that might help to avoid the total collapse of x front? Oh well, just like in the real war [:D]

German reserves? Here is what those look like:

Here's the sitrep at the end of my turn. North:



Activate more 18th army stuff this turn. Gotta get them back.