A Grey Steppe Eagle (loki100 vs Vigabrand)

[morvael]

I won't defend morale 40 because it was rather too harsh in light of some hardcoded non-linear effects when below 40 or 50 morale. On the other hand Soviets were in similar situation in 1942, but they learned the lesson in 1941 and after losses in the spring battles and early encirclements they promptly retreated hundreds of kilometers east. That helped them to survive until winter. So Soviets IRL stood and fought in 1941, but retreated in 1942. Soviet players retreat in 1941, but want to stay and fight in 1942. Red Army may not be ready for it, even with some nerfs to German supply. If you fight too far west the Axis don't suffer from Axis rail modifier, which is slowly growing as the months pass but further east should be more severe. It may be worth giving some ground to make use of it. Sorry to see you disappointed by the state of the game. It's my fault.

[timmyab]

I'd be really interested to see some screens of what happened. Was it an upper cut from the Kursk area? I had been concerned about that possibility.

It is true that supplies are more or less unlimited in WITE which is a major problem as far as realism goes. Especially ammo is not nearly important or limited enough imo.

I think the next version will balance the game back towards the Soviet side and that will be a good thing. Hopefully not too much. The 42 wall of steel is a much bigger turn off for me than marauding panzers. In an even game the Soviet player should feel seriously threatened in 42. However, this was not such an even game and barring serious mistakes it should have been in the bag.

[chaos45]

Im very curious to see what happened that makes you think you lost the game...you were winning hands down as of the last turns you show......

I concurr with your comments about how demoralizing it is to play the Soviets, even in 1942 when you should still be defending but slowly growing more powerful and more dangerous an adversary to the Germans.

However, I have now made it to December 1942 and Yes the German Panzers are still very powerful but my army is also becoming much more powerful and more dangerous. If not for the messed up random weather situation in the south I very well could have encircled and destroyed 5 of Peltons Divisions/BDEs....instead of 1 fluke clear weather turn tho the game gave a second fluke clear weather turn the next turn as well and German mobile units sprinted across the steppes to save those divisions and encircle 2 of my Corps. If as the weather chart shows the fluke had indeed been just 1 turn him saving those 5 units would have been almost impossible as shifting Soviet Corps in mud would have been very difficult if not impossible for him to do on his following turn.

However as you can see in my AAR I'm steadily building strength back up and going on the offensive where all his Panzers arent. In fact my Tank forces currently have most of his tank forces locked in a stand off in the south. If he pulls all his tanks my tanks can go on the attack...if I pull my tanks his tanks can go on the attack. Not bad for 1942. Also my Tank corps are getting better seeing 10 CV on some of my guard tank Corps now.....also starting to see 10 CV on my better Guard Cav Corps.

With 40 NM I dont think the Blob Soviet defense works its just to easy for the Germans to cut through and eat tons of AP every turn. My tactic of a strong counterattack force to keep pockets open longer seems to be have been the best defense. Now the issue here is your Counterattack forces have to be in the right place and have to be strong enough/have enough corps to keep from being counter-encirlced....that is the real problem.

I think 40 NM might work and does keep the Soviets weak....the issue is it also greatly affects the Soviets ability to counterattack/keep pockets open as it also hits all of the Soviet mobile formations. Which is why in the other thread I proposed maybe an early rising of Soviet Cav/mech/tank morale by 5 points to keep those key blocking/counterattack forces more capable even when the rest of the Soviet army weakens.

I think you can see from my game the Soviets dont have to run, but you have to pick where and when you will fight. When you start to lose the fight you need to run and force the Germans to extend their supply lines/logistics. Noticed how in my AAR Pelton launches a massive attack for a pocket- I bitterly contest the pocket for usually 1-3 turns then once I see his panzers have gotten back full supply or I see my counterattack forces at larger risk for encirclement I fall back. Did he still chew up the Soviets abit to much, probably but end result is I think Im going to crush the Germans at some point.

After November and especially by January 1943 on He wont be able to stop me across the line. He will be able to slow my assaults but my forces will start grinding forward. He cant stack the entire line with 2-3 German divisions per hex. Once I can get to the point of attacking anywhere with 3+ Rifle Corps backed by 3+ artillery divisions he wont be able to hold it all...and my army is already almost to this point. Artillery/Rocket divisions seem to be the key to unhinging the German lines. Im noticing a decided weakening of his units ability to resist when pounded by assault after assault supported by 2-4 artillery divisions/bdes.

All summer long I have been gaining ground to the South of Tula- is the critical no- but its building morale on many of my units, lowering morale on his units, and forcing him to commit more and more units into a defensive battle instead of support operations in the far south. The Overall strategic implications are less offensive power for the Germans even though my ground gains have only been 2-4 hexes per turn. He now has roughly 2 panzer corps that have been doing nothing but holding spots on the lines for a couple months outside his huge panzer force in the south staring across the Steppes at the Soviet tank front.

Maybe Im wrong but I think come January 1943 when my artillery divisions are more trained up and I have a ton more rifle corps my offensive tempo will increase alot. Even if its just a couple more hexes here and there along the line it will force his units into more and more of defensive stance.

[chaos45]

Morvael- When and where did the soviets suddenly retreat hundreds of miles- they were driven back hundreds of miles but according to Glantzs more recent work on the Stalingrad battle the Soviets actually bitterly contested the ground and lost. The issue is in the real fight they inflicted lots of losses on the German forces thus by the time the 6th Army actually got to Stalingrad it was greatly attrited from all the fighting to get there.

That is the real weakness of the system, you can never wear down the German Army in 1941/1942...then again the soviet armies units arent worn down unless they get encircled. Unfixable to balance is what im told. To get the real war and a real simulation of the events the casualties have to be more combat based and less retreat based. If that cant be fixed then the game is about as close to being real as its going to get.

As to Soviet NM/issues 1942- 45 NM should make the Germans work slightly harder, against maybe just soviet counterattack forces going back to 45 is an answer?

Another issue Im doing some research on is the Soviet truck issue. Seems the Soviets have far to few trucks. I basically have stopped building Soviet mobile formations since every truck I use for that just adds to the shortfall of trucks I have for supply.

[VigaBrand]

Hi,
what is written in german is not from me, it is from another member of the my german forum.
I'm not able to translate this 100%. I'm more afraid, that my translation (or your dutch translation) overlooked some keywords (Feinheiten) and frustrate us. The user wants to epress his surprise, because he follows both AARs (yours and my). And one opinion (not from you, but expressed by most of the followers here) was that this game is over for the german side. You only write how well your position is. ("nachdem er quasi sagte, wie toll es ihm geht"). In my AAR in german I give them the link to your AAR, so that they can see both sides. And read all comments. I think it is normal, that we are both are focussed on our sides and our possiblitys.
I published one PM from you, which is not okay. I apologies for that!
The content from you PM, was your clearification of the low morale and the OOB changes, which reduce the CV from most of your units. And your wish, that the mud will come.
That should show them the reason, why I had success. That it wasn't your fault and you see it coming (reduced CV) and couldn't defend against that.

[morvael]

Aside from stupid counterattacks and some stand fast orders, the Red Army did retreat in 1942:

After resisting for a day, the 28th Army began to withdraw eastward as its flanks gave way – the Red Army had learned something from previous battles like Vyazma-Bryansk – and it used its four tank brigades to conduct self-sacrificial local counterattacks to prevent the German pincers from closing too fast. Yet within five days, the German pincers did close, trapping 24,800 Soviet troops, but two-thirds of the 28th Army escaped.

Kozlov only had a single tank brigade with forty-six tanks to oppose Kleist’s 330 tanks, so the Soviets fell back rather than face encirclement and annihilation, as they had before.

Within six days, Mackensen’s III Panzerkorps ended up conducting a great wheel, turning southeast and ending up behind the 12th and 37th Armies. The Soviet 12th Army was forced to abandon Voroshilovgrad and hastily retreat to avoid encirclement.

By 28 July , Malinovsky could see his front collapsing and he ordered the 12th, 18th and 37th Armies to retreat southward.

[Peltonx]

This a PBeM or server based game?

If its PBeM I ignore the results as I have tracked with MT's help the results and PBeM's generally are way off from server results.

[morvael]

So back to the drawing board. We have two camps: Germans are too weak, and Soviets are too weak. It has always been so and ever will be [:(]

[Peltonx]

ORIGINAL: chaos45

Im very curious to see what happened that makes you think you lost the game...you were winning hands down as of the last turns you show......

I concurr with your comments about how demoralizing it is to play the Soviets, even in 1942 when you should still be defending but slowly growing more powerful and more dangerous an adversary to the Germans.

However, I have now made it to December 1942 and Yes the German Panzers are still very powerful but my army is also becoming much more powerful and more dangerous. If not for the messed up random weather situation in the south I very well could have encircled and destroyed 5 of Peltons Divisions/BDEs....instead of 1 fluke clear weather turn tho the game gave a second fluke clear weather turn the next turn as well and German mobile units sprinted across the steppes to save those divisions and encircle 2 of my Corps. If as the weather chart shows the fluke had indeed been just 1 turn him saving those 5 units would have been almost impossible as shifting Soviet Corps in mud would have been very difficult if not impossible for him to do on his following turn.

However as you can see in my AAR I'm steadily building strength back up and going on the offensive where all his Panzers arent. In fact my Tank forces currently have most of his tank forces locked in a stand off in the south. If he pulls all his tanks my tanks can go on the attack...if I pull my tanks his tanks can go on the attack. Not bad for 1942. Also my Tank corps are getting better seeing 10 CV on some of my guard tank Corps now.....also starting to see 10 CV on my better Guard Cav Corps.

With 40 NM I dont think the Blob Soviet defense works its just to easy for the Germans to cut through and eat tons of AP every turn. My tactic of a strong counterattack force to keep pockets open longer seems to be have been the best defense. Now the issue here is your Counterattack forces have to be in the right place and have to be strong enough/have enough corps to keep from being counter-encirlced....that is the real problem.

I think 40 NM might work and does keep the Soviets weak....the issue is it also greatly affects the Soviets ability to counterattack/keep pockets open as it also hits all of the Soviet mobile formations. Which is why in the other thread I proposed maybe an early rising of Soviet Cav/mech/tank morale by 5 points to keep those key blocking/counterattack forces more capable even when the rest of the Soviet army weakens.

I think you can see from my game the Soviets dont have to run, but you have to pick where and when you will fight. When you start to lose the fight you need to run and force the Germans to extend their supply lines/logistics. Noticed how in my AAR Pelton launches a massive attack for a pocket- I bitterly contest the pocket for usually 1-3 turns then once I see his panzers have gotten back full supply or I see my counterattack forces at larger risk for encirclement I fall back. Did he still chew up the Soviets abit to much, probably but end result is I think Im going to crush the Germans at some point.

After November and especially by January 1943 on He wont be able to stop me across the line. He will be able to slow my assaults but my forces will start grinding forward. He cant stack the entire line with 2-3 German divisions per hex. Once I can get to the point of attacking anywhere with 3+ Rifle Corps backed by 3+ artillery divisions he wont be able to hold it all...and my army is already almost to this point. Artillery/Rocket divisions seem to be the key to unhinging the German lines. Im noticing a decided weakening of his units ability to resist when pounded by assault after assault supported by 2-4 artillery divisions/bdes.

All summer long I have been gaining ground to the South of Tula- is the critical no- but its building morale on many of my units, lowering morale on his units, and forcing him to commit more and more units into a defensive battle instead of support operations in the far south. The Overall strategic implications are less offensive power for the Germans even though my ground gains have only been 2-4 hexes per turn. He now has roughly 2 panzer corps that have been doing nothing but holding spots on the lines for a couple months outside his huge panzer force in the south staring across the Steppes at the Soviet tank front.

Maybe Im wrong but I think come January 1943 when my artillery divisions are more trained up and I have a ton more rifle corps my offensive tempo will increase alot. Even if its just a couple more hexes here and there along the line it will force his units into more and more of defensive stance.

Bro you were 5 panzer divisions from a complete route in early 42 you survived because I was a moron and did not have all my panzers in same ball.

Your uber mobile troops were toast.

Loki has played allot longer then you so I trust his judgement and what he says. Losing 3 Fronts late 42 he is toast game set match, I seen it done in other AAR's and done it myself.

Dave lost 750,000 men about same time as loki, but over 6 turns so he was able to survived and will probably win our game.

A massive lose like that its over end of story as Germany will now easly get 260 Vp's

[Peltonx]

ORIGINAL: morvael

So back to the drawing board. We have two camps: Germans are too weak, and Soviets are too weak. It has always been so and ever will be [:(]

I disagree.

Germany is to strong or Russia to weak depending on how you look at it in 42, .05 does address this, with logistic changes and NM changes.
I think Red Army is way over powered late war as do others that have played into 44+ ( not just talked about it).



.04 all things being equal was balanced as dave,chaos and BrianG will all win. Sure I beat allot of others, but they were not my equals.

Again I am talking server games and not PBeM's. Anyone can be uber reloading 20 times a turn.

[timmyab]

ORIGINAL: morvael

So back to the drawing board. We have two camps: Germans are too weak, and Soviets are too weak. It has always been so and ever will be [:(]

lol. Actually I used to be in the Axis are too weak and now I'm in the Soviets are too weak camp. WITE is an extremely difficult game to balance because of the sheer time it takes to play games out. Basically these patches get tested on this forum and it takes several months before a consensus starts to form. The games from recent patches have certainly been more exciting than they used to be. Balance only needs tweaking towards the Soviets I think, not a major change.

[morvael]

In .05 soviets get
- better way to attack with large forces at the price of increased casualties (if against strong position)
- hqbu is weaker
- morale 45 in '42
- faster fort building
At the price of
- forts being weaker, dropping faster

[Peltonx]

ORIGINAL: timmyab

ORIGINAL: morvael

So back to the drawing board. We have two camps: Germans are too weak, and Soviets are too weak. It has always been so and ever will be [:(]

lol. Actually I used to be in the Axis are too weak and now I'm in the Soviets are too weak camp. WITE is an extremely difficult game to balance because of the sheer time it takes to play games out. Basically these patches get tested on this forum and it takes several months before a consensus starts to form. The games from recent patches have certainly been more exciting than they used to be. Balance only needs tweaking towards the Soviets I think, not a major change.

I agree and disagree.

Yes tweak Russia up and Germany down which .05 addresses.

German is to weak late war and Russia to strong, but like you said the player base tests the patches over months.

smokendave is playing M60 as Germany and Me as Russia and he can also see the late war issue that has yet to be addresses in any patch to date as games never get that far or very few.

1.08 is by far the most balanced patch by allot as all the HUGE exploits have been removed so we can finally tweak balancing issues and not exploit issues. the first 5 major patches were a complete waste of time as they balanced exploits and not game mechanics

[chaos45]

Morvael sent you a PM with my thoughts.

I think a compromise is whats needed, Keep Soviet infantry at 40 NM for summer 1942 but increase Soviet Cav/Tank/Mech by 5 more points over the same period effectively allowing them to keep the 45 NM.

This will encourage a counterattack mindset for Soviet players as it should be. Plus allow the Soviet player to use their mobile forces as a blocking force if they want. However all this comes with risk because the Germans encircling and destroying them is costly.

[chaos45]

Pelton- yep but 5 divisions to short is still to short all that matters.

Many times I have been 1 unit to short to do what I wanted to do as well [:)]

[M60A3TTS]

ORIGINAL: Pelton

ORIGINAL: morvael

So back to the drawing board. We have two camps: Germans are too weak, and Soviets are too weak. It has always been so and ever will be [:(]

I disagree.

Germany is to strong or Russia to weak depending on how you look at it in 42, .05 does address this, with logistic changes and NM changes.
I think Red Army is way over powered late war as do others that have played into 44+ ( not just talked about it).



.04 all things being equal was balanced as dave,chaos and BrianG will all win. Sure I beat allot of others, but they were not my equals.

Again I am talking server games and not PBeM's. Anyone can be uber reloading 20 times a turn.

Just because someone can, doesn't mean everyone does. My $.02

I would prefer PBEM because I can save my turns and go back to them at a later date but if people want server games I have no problem with that either.

[MattFL]

I have followed this AAR relatively closely along with many others. I was certainly in the camp that for the most part, the game was over in favor the Russians long ago. I took a quick look at what recently happened over on the German AAR that Loki posted a link to. Sure, it's a disaster, but from what I can see, it's by no means game over other than Loki (somewhat understandably) losing his will to carry on. It will take him many turns to fully seal and eliminate the pockets and very few of the units are actually encircled right now and I'm sure a number of them will get away. Regardless, it's certainly a major turning point in the game for sure.

But I question why this particular result somehow means the game is broken? I'm not asking sarcastically or anything, I'm really wondering why the 40 NM in particular means the SHC can't defend or attack? I admit, I'm not huge on paying attention to such things (i.e. the morale level of units). Sure I'm aware of it, but I pretty much only micromanage visible CV. Further, from reading this AAR, to me Loki was far too committed to using some of his best units continually attacking in the Smolensk area where I personally would have shifted my best units to defending against the German Panzers. Sure I would attack where I could attack to grind down the Germans where they are weak to build morale and lower theirs, but I wouldn't group together good units to do so. I remain far more on the defensive in '42 than Loki did in this game. So what am I missing (seriously)? Because to me Vigabrand should be credited (as Loki has already said) for building up his panzers and using them in a single massive operation to penetrate what was apparently a weak part of Loki's line. So from what I can see the blame falls on Loki as the Russians can't afford to have weak parts of their line exposing some of their best units to this type of encirclement in the summer of '42. If those units constantly fighting around Smolensk were instead part of a strong defensive line this doesn't happen. I also don't see the CV issues from the screenshots that leads someone to think that the SHC doesn't have the CV to defend.

So I ask, what am I missing? Seems to me Loki could well have defended if he was committed to defending rather than constantly attacking too early in the game for the Soviets to be that committed to attacking. The Orel offensive he launched the previous turn is case and point. Serves no real purpose except sticking the necks of all of those good units in the noose. Use those units to defend and this doesn't happen from what I can see....

Most people here probably have more experience than I do, Loki for sure, and my experiences are based on the games I've played and who I've played them against. But I feel like I'm missing something in these discussions about Soviet Weakness as that hasn't been my experience.

Thanks,

Matt

[xbmoore]

[/quote]

Again I am talking server games and not PBeM's. Anyone can be uber reloading 20 times a turn.

Not to steal the thread, but can't you just X out of a server game and the data will not be saved. Then log back in and start again where you left off? Seems you can still do this even on a server game.

[chaos45]

Server games I think save as you play through the turn and if you x out pretty sure it saves as your leaving.

[timmyab]

You can do that but there's a note made on the server that the turn has been reloaded. Personally I'd be quite happy for the number of reloads to be included in the turn report.

Good points there Matt.

edit. It doesn't chaos.