Matrix Games Forums

ORIGINAL: Patience

I'm new to the site and am confused as to what rules are currently being used in this discussion. I have the Final edition companion CD with the complete rules. Should I be using the RaW rules to reference the play of the computer version in development?

The rules that form then base for MWIF is found at: http://www.a-d-g.com.au/download/WiF-RaW-7-aug-04.doc

This FAQ is also used: http://www.a-d-g.com.au/download/WiFFE_ ... l_2009.pdf

From these Steve has made Rules As Coded that has a few deviations from the WIF rules.

I have the RaW rules now thank you and is there a way to get the RaC version?

ORIGINAL: Patience

I have the RaW rules now thank you and is there a way to get the RaC version?

Not yet, unless you are on the beta team.

Thanks abj,

I kinda figured something like that. Any Idea how to get on the team?

In the past Steve announced when he had a need for additional beta testers.

ORIGINAL: abj9562

In the past Steve announced when he had a need for additional beta testers.

That is what I'll do again if I come to the point where I think I need more beta testers.

My standard operating procedure is to post an announcement in this forum and then give people ~10 days to respond. So if you check in once a week, you won't miss the announcement. I give no preference to those who respond quickly - the criteria are more practical than that (and part of the announcement). Rather than go into detail, I'll simply say that one criterion is whether a person is active in the forum (posts interesting stuff and otherwise involved).

Thats good to know. Thank you Steve and ABJ for your help

Surrender Metropolitan France?

Under which conditions is this good idea and during which game turn, impulse?

I will throw out some examples:
• French production is reduced to zero?
• Number of French as land units in Metropolitan France is reduced below 6?
• France is nearly beaten and US Entry needed for ex gear up?

ORIGINAL: peskpesk

Surrender Metropolitan France?

Under which conditions is this good idea and during which game turn, impulse?

I will throw out some examples:
• French production is reduced to zero?
• Number of French as land units in Metropolitan France is reduced below 6?
• France is nearly beaten and US Entry needed for ex gear up?

If mainland France has lost all its ports when Vichy is declared then it is impossible for the French BB and CV to return to a mainland French port. This is bad for Free France when the administrations groups are rolled for.

So surrendering before all ports are lost is often a good idea. This can be tough to predict since you need to surrender the turn before the ports are lost since, unfortunately, the Vichy creation step is before the surrender step.



Edit: 17.2 Determine control
Roll a die for each of the other administration groups to determine who controls it. A group becomes
controlled by the (Free) French player if the roll is within the range shown on this chart. Otherwise, it remains
controlled by Vichy France.
Free-French Chart
Administration group Die
Morocco, Algeria & Tunisia 10
French West Africa 9-10
Syria 9-10
Indo-China 9-10
Madagascar 8-10
All Asian minors & territories 7-10
French Equatorial Africa 3-10
All Pacific Ocean minors & territories 2-10
All other territories & minors 9-10
Subtract 2 from each die roll if any on-map French CVs or BBs are not currently in a Metropolitan French
port.

Surrendering France is tricky. Per the rules (13.7.6) at least half of France's printed factory stacks must be enemy-controlled.

As per the screenshot map, France has 15 factory stacks. Paris has 3 stacks, or 20% of the total.

Basically, Germany would have to break out south of Paris towards Lyons, without taking Paris, in order for France to be in a position to surrender.

Edit: Think I corrected the link to the map of France.

What about Paris, Lille, Strasburg, ROuen?

Just a FYI.

Original: WIFFE-RAW-7.0.pdf

13.7.6 Surrender
During any peace step, you can surrender a home country of a major power that controls less than half the printed factory stacks in the home country. You can surrender a home country with no printed factories if there is an enemy land unit there.

Treat the surrender of a home country as a complete conquest (see 13.7.1) of the major power if it doesn’t control any aligned minors. Otherwise it is incompletely conquered.

An interesting counter to NOT offering France Vichy (a previous discussion).

But why surrender [&:]


No Vichy, No surrender means:

The Allies can still use French naval and air units on the map, which have their own action points. So what if there are no French land units in France.

Only CV and BB have to be in a Metropolitan French port.



The Allies have control of the French resources outside of France.

Oil trade agreement
Iraq, Mosul

Other Resources
Algeria
New Caledonia
French Indo China, Hanoi
Senegal

Except for the oil (for the French fleet) lend lease the resources to the Allies.

The Germans may have dreamed of an Alpine Redoubt at the end of the war, but the French can actually pull this off in Toulouse, one of the most difficult hexes to take in the game. A German who declines the Vichy offer can begin to feel very foolish indeed if the BEF shifts to cover Bordeaux, a few French factories are railed to the south-east, and French MTN units appear on the production spiral....

so in other words, a similar pile of thought needs to be invested in these decisions for the German AI

ORIGINAL: Extraneous

Just a FYI.

Original: WIFFE-RAW-7.0.pdf

13.7.6 Surrender
During any peace step, you can surrender a home country of a major power that controls less than half the printed factory stacks in the home country. You can surrender a home country with no printed factories if there is an enemy land unit there.

Treat the surrender of a home country as a complete conquest (see 13.7.1) of the major power if it doesn’t control any aligned minors. Otherwise it is incompletely conquered.

An interesting counter to NOT offering France Vichy (a previous discussion).

But why surrender [&:]


No Vichy, No surrender means:

The Allies can still use French naval and air units on the map, which have their own action points. So what if there are no French land units in France.

Only CV and BB have to be in a Metropolitan French port.



The Allies have control of the French resources outside of France.

Oil trade agreement
Iraq, Mosul

Other Resources
Algeria
New Caledonia
French Indo China, Hanoi
Senegal

Except for the oil (for the French fleet) lend lease the resources to the Allies.

Axis can capture all the mainland French ports and then declare Vichy. Or they can go for Spain and when Axis has plenty of troops in Spain they declare Vichy.

That is two reasons that might make the Allies considering surrendering France.

Some remarks:


French land & air units in France are all destroyed if France is conquered or has surrendered; with special rules for a Vichy setup.

French naval units in France are forced to rebase or overrun if France is conquered or has surrendered; with special rules for a Vichy setup.

The oil stops going to France if (a) France is conquered or has surrendered and (b) someone other than France controls Syria.

Also, a French surrender results in an incomplete conquest as long as France has at least one friendly aligned minor still on the map, so any French land, air & naval units outside France are still useable by the French player & Allies in the event of conquest or surrender.

I think surrender is far preferable to Vichy, so if Germany delays installing Vichy France and it does not look like the French can set up a final redoubt in the Bordeaux-Toulouse sector, they should surrender if given the opportunity.

The exception to this is if the Axis have built up to effectively campaign in the Med; in that case having the N. African colonies & Syria go Vichy is preferable if the Allies cannot muster an adequate defence.

ORIGINAL: Orm

Axis can capture all the mainland French ports and then declare Vichy. Or they can go for Spain and when Axis has plenty of troops in Spain they declare Vichy.

That is two reasons that might make the Allies considering surrendering France.

ORIGINAL: composer99

Some remarks:


French land & air units in France are all destroyed if France is conquered or has surrendered; with special rules for a Vichy setup.

French naval units in France are forced to rebase or overrun if France is conquered or has surrendered; with special rules for a Vichy setup.

The oil stops going to France if (a) France is conquered or has surrendered and (b) someone other than France controls Syria.

Also, a French surrender results in an incomplete conquest as long as France has at least one friendly aligned minor still on the map, so any French land, air & naval units outside France are still useable by the French player & Allies in the event of conquest or surrender.

I think surrender is far preferable to Vichy, so if Germany delays installing Vichy France and it does not look like the French can set up a final redoubt in the Bordeaux-Toulouse sector, they should surrender if given the opportunity.

The exception to this is if the Axis have built up to effectively campaign in the Med; in that case having the N. African colonies & Syria go Vichy is preferable if the Allies cannot muster an adequate defense.

[:D] Those are all good points for declaring Vichy. [:D]

[:D] So are mine. [:D]

But remember the previous discussion was on Not declaring Vichy France.

When would you surrender France when the Axis has not declared Vichy?

[&:] Does not compute. France does not get to decide whether Vichy is installed or not. Orm & I are describing scenarios where Germany (or Italy, if they are the ones to occupy Paris, gamey as that might be) have for whatever reason not installed Vichy. Under those circumstances the French may wish to surrender. How is that not a discussion on when to surrender France?

Anyway:

- France can surrender only if at least half of its printed factory stacks (8 out of 15) are occupied.
- If the Axis take Paris, they will usually also occupy Lille, Metz, & Rouen, which is enough factories out to surrender.
- If the Axis do not take Paris, they will need to occupy at least three other factory stacks somewhere in France, which can be rather difficult (not impossible).

As long as France has lost 8 out of 15 factory stacks and (in the case where Paris is occupied) the Axis skip the installation of Vichy, the French AIO has to look at the reinforcements coming, see if they can form a redoubt somewhere, and hold out for another 1-2 turns. If so, they can delay surrendering for at least one more turn; if not, they should probably consider proceeding with the surrender.

Also, in any case, if it is the last turn of a year and it looks like the Germans will be in a position to conquer France sometime in the following year, the French should consider surrendering then to preserve their future force pool(s).

When would you surrender France when the Axis has not declared Vichy?

The Axis takes Paris, Lille, Metz, and Rouen, which are enough factories for surrender.

The Axis choose not declare Vichy France.


Under these conditions when you are playing France what conditions would make you surrender France [&:]



Clear enough for you now [&:]

ORIGINAL: Extraneous

When would you surrender France when the Axis has not declared Vichy?

The Axis takes Paris, Lille, Metz, and Rouen, which are enough factories for surrender.

The Axis choose not declare Vichy France.


Under these conditions when you are playing France what conditions would make you surrender France [&:]



Clear enough for you now [&:]

That is one subset of the conditions Orm and Composer have been discussing.

Regardless of how it happens, and which factories are axis-controlled, you can't surrender until you only control 6 of the French factories (because France has 14, not 15). It is a French decision and sometimes choosing to fight is better and sometimes it's not. That is what they've been talking about.

Do you have anything to offer to the discussion?

I did miscount total factories, for which I apologize.

However, per the rules the number of factories the French need to control is less than half which means that the number of factories the Axis needs to secure (8) remains the same.