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Minesweeper HMS Welshman (M 48) (1st Minelaying Squadron)

05/09/42 - 05/12/42 Operation BOWERY 240 tons of stores and RAF personnel to Malta
06/16/42 - 06/16/42 Operation HARPOON stores, mail, and personnel to Malta
07/15/42 - 07/27/42 Operation PINPOINT stores and passengers to Malta
08/10/42 - 08/15/42 Operation PEDESTAL stores to Malta
10/28/42 - 11/02/42 delivered stores to Malta returned to Gibraltar
11/02/42 - 11/11/42 delivered stores to Algiers to support Oprtation TORCH
11/17/42 - 11/22/42 delivered stores to Malta returned to Gibraltar
11/27/42 - 11/30/42 from Gibraltar to Haifa from Gibraltar to pickup torpedoes for Malta
11/30/42 - 12/01/42 delivers torpedoes to Malta
11/30/42 - 12/01/42 returns to Gibraltar
Passage to Haifa to prepare for minelaying duties carried out practice minelaying off Haifa.
12/04/42 Passage to Algiers with a call at Bone with MTB and submarine spares
01/04/43 transported stores, including 150 tons of seed potatoes to Malta

02/01/43 position 32º12'N 24º52'E East of Tobruk. U-617 torpedoes HMS Welshman. Serious flooding of mine deck caused instability and could not be corrected. She sank quickly after 2 hours. 155 killed included 2 civilians.


Durring Operation BOWERY who commented about HMS Welshman that ".. we may well lose this ship ... but in view of the emergency ... there appears to be no alternative".

He was a war correspondent for the Morning Post (and alot of you have his books acording to your posts).

ORIGINAL: Extraneous

He was a war correspondent for the Morning Post (and alot of you have his books acording to your posts).

Warspite1

In which case I can only assume its Winston S Churchill.

why were two RN battleships known as cherry trees  

ORIGINAL: ezz

why were two RN battleships known as cherry trees  

Cherry wood decks?

ORIGINAL: ezz

why were two RN battleships known as cherry trees  

Warspite1

Well I've never heard that before! Did you get that from wiki or do you have another source?

ORIGINAL: warspite1

ORIGINAL: Extraneous

He was a war correspondent for the Morning Post (and alot of you have his books acording to your posts).

Warspite1

In which case I can only assume its Winston S Churchill.

Correct [:D] Sir Winston Leonard Spencer-Churchill [:D]

ORIGINAL: warspite1

ORIGINAL: ezz

why were two RN battleships known as cherry trees  

Warspite1

Well I've never heard that before! Did you get that from wiki or do you have another source?

I found other sources than Wiki.

I hadn't heard of it either and can't answer since I looked it up. [;)]

Not cherrywood decks.
Lots of sources. i can't quote the book I'm reading as it names one of the ships in the title.

clue 2. - One Battleship was the flag of the HomeFleet in 1939.  The new type 79 radar should have been fitted early in 1939 but it would have had to be fitted in the Admiral's suite/flag room. Instead it was fitted to the other Cherry Tree Battleship. This turned out to be extremely fortunate later in the war.

The sister ship was the first battleship to fire torpedoes at another battleship.

ORIGINAL: ezz

Not cherrywood decks.
Lots of sources. i can't quote the book I'm reading as it names one of the ships in the title.

clue 2. - One Battleship was the flag of the HomeFleet in 1939.  The new type 79 radar should have been fitted early in 1939 but it would have had to be fitted in the Admiral's suite/flag room. Instead it was fitted to the other Cherry Tree Battleship. This turned out to be extremely fortunate later in the war.

The sister ship was the first battleship to fire torpedoes at another battleship.

Well the sister ship was the Rodney as I seem to remember her sending a torpedo into the Bismark. So that identifies the first ship as the Nelson, I still have no clue as to why they would be called cherry trees.

ItBurns got the answer


[:D] Sorry Ezz but I can't resist this one [:D]

The G3 battlecruiser and N3 battleships were not allowed under the Washington Naval Treaty.

In order to keep battleship designs within the Washington Naval Treaty limitations HMS Nelson and HMS Rodney used many aspects of the G3 and N3 designs.

They were known as "Washington's Cherry Trees" or “the Cherry Trees".

Quite right!

'Cut down by Washington' to fit the new limitations.

ItBurns was right about the torpedoes. 12 fired by Rodney at Bismark. One may have hit.
A near miss by Bismark put the torpedo tubes out of action.

That radar turned out to be better placed on Rodney than Nelson. Ageing Rodney's 16" slow firing guns got off many more rounds than brand new KGV which suffered from design faults, faulty/untried equipment and flooding in heavy seas. Scored more hits too.

ezz - for those of us who do not know - what is the story about George Washington and the Cherry Tree?

Its an American school story told very similarly to the ones we learned about Alfred and the cakes or Robert the Bruce and the spider.

Tradition has it that George Washington, America's first president, chopped down a cherry tree in his youth.
George gave the tree a good whack and chops it down. His father sees the damaged tree and asks his son if he knows who did the deed. George is reported, to have replied to his father's query by answering:
"I can't tell a lie, Pa; you know I can't tell a lie. I did cut it with my hatchet."

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Alfred and the cakes? Or Robert the Bruce and the spider? Probably American school tales... I don't know those at all... [&:] The only Robert the Bruce I've ever heard of has something to do with the Scots and the English in the Middle Ages... 

ORIGINAL: Centuur

Alfred and the cakes? Or Robert the Bruce and the spider? Probably American school tales... I don't know those at all... [&:] The only Robert the Bruce I've ever heard of has something to do with the Scots and the English in the Middle Ages... 

Warspite1

American? No ezz is saying these are stories taught to British school children stories in the same way as Washington and the Cherry Tree is told to American children - King Alfred and yes, Robert the Bruce.

Sadly the reality is that, nowadays, if any British school child was told about King Alfred I'd be astounded [:(]

Those kind of stories... Well. However we're going off topic here.

Now, today, there was a news item on the national News here, regarding WW II...

It was about one of the Dutch U boats (the K XVI), which got torpedoed by the Japanese in the South Chinese Sea. There was a remembrance service for relatives today at Den Helder (the Dutch Navy port) because of the fact that Australian divers accidently discovered the wreck of the vessel, which was still unaccounted for. In a couple of weeks, a Dutch naval vessel will sail for the area to honour the crew, who all died there...

From all Dutch submarines ever build, now only one remains missing. All others have been found.

The Dutch submarines were numbered in two ways. The number of the first preceded with the capital K (as mentioned) and followed with Roman numbers (like the K XVI). The other numbers were preceded with another capital letter, followed by arabic numbers. What was the other capital used and why was there a difference regarding the use of those capitals and numbers?

The other letter was 'O'.
I have no idea why.

"K" stands for "Koloniën" (colonies) ~ submarines built for the Dutch colonies
"O" stands for "Onderzeeboot" (Under sea boat or submarine) ~ submarines built for the Dutch home waters

Some Dutch submarines were started as "K" submarines and then were renamed and finished as "O"submarines.

ORIGINAL: Extraneous

"K" stands for "Koloniën" (colonies) ~ submarines built for the Dutch colonies
"O" stands for "Onderzeeboot" (Under sea boat or submarine) ~ submarines built for the Dutch home waters

Some Dutch submarines were started as "K" submarines and then were renamed and finished as "O"submarines.

You're right. The Dutch did try to decide before going to the drawing boards where a boat or smaller naval vessel would be operating. Building for the West or East Indies (tropics, large area's to cover) was different than building for the North Sea (relatively cold climat, short distances...).
Lack of funds during the depression did put a temporary hold on the development and building of a class of O boats in the early 1930's. However, they did want some modern boats in the Dutch waters, so they decided that a couple of K boats would stay in Dutch waters and did rename them as O submarines.
Another peculiar thing about Dutch submarine building is that they always developed classes with the intention to build them in two's or fours. After that, they would go back to the drawing table to make more modern ones. This is still done even today...