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I´ve tried Nagoya. But its simply not worth it. I lost 18 B29s for 49 LI. Only thing worth hitting with the losses I´m suffering are Osaka/Tokyo. They are the only places with big enough MAN/HI/LI to cause the fires to do damage. Remember that fires have almost zero chance to damage the actual factories. And hitting the factories directly is very, very hard even in daylight. During nighttime its impossible. Or very close too.

I´m bombing from 9k. Any higher and the hits simply drop off to almost nothing. I´m working on getting within Sweep range. But right now it wouldn´t matter even I was close enough. I don´t have the fighters to sweep the HI anyway. [:)]

Regarding the pilots I´m not sure you can conserve them. Most of the pilots now flying the B29s have been around since 42-43 flying the 4Es. EXP gain is terrible slow for them. Most have 200-400 Missions but still "only" 70-80 EXP

Although your bomber force is paying a heavy price, you do seem to be doing a lot of damage. From your screenshots it looks like you have disabled 4500 worth of supply production from his HI/LI. Considering that the Japanese home islands only produce ~26,000 supply (maybe a little more if he expanded industry), you've decreased his home islands supply production by almost 20%. That's going to hurt if he tries to rebuild ground units, take on massive amounts of replacement aircraft in his squadrons, or if he has to repair or expand any more factories.

I agree that flying long range night missions into intense opposition with inexperienced bomber crews is a probably a bad idea. Are there any isolated Japanese outposts which you can safely use as live target practice for a couple months to give your new pilots some experience as you rebuild aircraft pools?

You mentioned that the B29-B is coming online soon, but will probably be useless do to its lack of defensive armament. Are there any cities which lack night fighter coverage? If so they could be useful, since with the bigger bomb load even 45exp pilots might be able to hit something if they made it to the target.

ORIGINAL: House Stark

Although your bomber force is paying a heavy price, you do seem to be doing a lot of damage. From your screenshots it looks like you have disabled 4500 worth of supply production from his HI/LI. Considering that the Japanese home islands only produce ~26,000 supply (maybe a little more if he expanded industry), you've decreased his home islands supply production by almost 20%. That's going to hurt if he tries to rebuild ground units, take on massive amounts of replacement aircraft in his squadrons, or if he has to repair or expand any more factories.

I agree that flying long range night missions into intense opposition with inexperienced bomber crews is a probably a bad idea. Are there any isolated Japanese outposts which you can safely use as live target practice for a couple months to give your new pilots some experience as you rebuild aircraft pools?

You mentioned that the B29-B is coming online soon, but will probably be useless do to its lack of defensive armament. Are there any cities which lack night fighter coverage? If so they could be useful, since with the bigger bomb load even 45exp pilots might be able to hit something if they made it to the target.

Hey HR! [:)]

Yeah, I shouldn´t complain really. The results are good indeed. But I´m worried losing those pilots will in the end make me unable to continue with the bombing campaign.

I actually have a perfect training ground for aspiring pilots...A tiny outpost called Manila... [:D] On a more serious note though I will never be able to get them up to near close to the levels the pilots I currently have in the B29s. As I mentioned earlier most of those pilots have 300 missions flown or more and have been around from 42/43. Simply takes to long to get them there.

About the B29Bs I´m not sure I´ll find any targets for them. Perhaps places like Shanghai and in Korea? It seems impossible to hit factories at night but I might give it a go anyway just to have them do something.

What if you bomb from really, really high on days when the weather forecast is clear or clear-ish, and during the day? If you bomb somewhere he isn't expecting, he probably won't have a CAP up, and if you bomb from high enough you should (theoretically) be above his flak ceiling.

Ok, so Nagoya may not have been a good example. I haven't loaded up the game to check. But I know Nagasaki has quite a lot of industry.

At this point, he won't be repairing any HI/LI. Anything you damage may as well be destroyed, except for the difference in VPs of 20 vs. 2. So if you're just going for damaging his economy, you could bomb during the day and target industries directly rather than relying on fires from Manpower hits, which are harder to get at the smaller Manpower centers like Nagoya even though they still have plenty of factories. What if you targeted, for example, his Ha-45 factories? You may achieve less overall destruction but more effect in his ability to resist as you reduce the number of Franks he's able to produce, etc.

IMO, if you bomb from 9k you're going to take pretty damn heavy losses. There's a reason the historical strat bombing campaign occurred at high altitudes (...right?).

[font="Verdana"]1st February -44[/font]
______________________________________________________________________________

Yet another slow one.

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Luzon/Manilagrad
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Damage from bombardments have really taken off now! Lack of supply?

Night Naval bombardment of Manila at 79,77

Allied Ships
BB Missouri
BB Wisconsin
BB New Jersey
BB Iowa

Japanese ground losses:
567 casualties reported
Squads: 2 destroyed, 13 disabled
Non Combat: 17 destroyed, 42 disabled
Engineers: 4 destroyed, 2 disabled
Guns lost 13 (6 destroyed, 7 disabled)
Vehicles lost 20 (5 destroyed, 15 disabled)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Afternoon Air attack on 105th Division, at 79,77 (Manila)

Weather in hex: Clear sky

Raid detected at 80 NM, estimated altitude 14,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 22 minutes

Allied aircraft
Liberator B.VI x 25
B-24J Liberator x 10
B-17F Fortress x 4
B-24D Liberator x 3
B-24D1 Liberator x 3
B-24J Liberator x 91
B-25D1 Mitchell x 3
B-25G Mitchell x 10
B-25H Mitchell x 31
B-25J1 Mitchell x 4
B-25J11 Mitchell x 5
P-38L Lightning x 15
PB4Y-1 Liberator x 26
PBJ-1D Mitchell x 7
PBJ-1H Mitchell x 7

Allied aircraft losses
Liberator B.VI: 3 damaged
B-24J Liberator: 2 damaged
B-17F Fortress: 1 damaged
B-24J Liberator: 18 damaged
B-25H Mitchell: 8 damaged
PB4Y-1 Liberator: 1 damaged
PBJ-1D Mitchell: 2 damaged
PBJ-1H Mitchell: 4 damaged

Japanese ground losses:
286 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 25 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 58 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 8 disabled
Guns lost 13 (1 destroyed, 12 disabled)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ground combat at Manila (79,77)

Allied Bombardment attack

Attacking force 7049 troops, 693 guns, 462 vehicles, Assault Value = 8023

Defending force 117298 troops, 1525 guns, 1060 vehicles, Assault Value = 2816

Japanese ground losses:
148 casualties reported
Squads: 2 destroyed, 5 disabled
Non Combat: 1 destroyed, 0 disabled
Engineers: 1 destroyed, 4 disabled

Allied ground losses:
8 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Non Combat: 2 destroyed, 3 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Guns lost 18 (4 destroyed, 14 disabled)
Vehicles lost 4 (1 destroyed, 3 disabled)

Despite the damage the Jap defenders increase their RAW AV with 2 while the allied AV goes +170. The real effect on the defenders will hopefully be in disruption though and not AV.

Big day tomorrow. Time for another attack. Everything goes after Manila. B29s will bomb MAN burning supply, ALL the BBs will bombard and every bomber in range will attack... fingers crossed. I have high hopes we can drop the forts and really start inflicting some damage!

An interesting side notification here is that looking at the AC losses Erik has lost a lot of Franks in OPS losses this turn. I´m guessing he has flown them in to Luzon to try something. Put LRCAP up over the BBs and increased CAP everywhere. Put everything on sweep over Manila. If I´m right there will be a lot of planes falling out of the sky tomorrow over Manila.

Pulled the CVs back a bit too just in case. My strike package is a bit beat up.

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Fletcher raids
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Goes well but we only sink small ships. Some 10 Jap ships sunk. Most AKLs and Es.

Well...thats it. I hope I got some positive news regarding Manila shortly...

FP training or warships goes NavS and then either ASW or Recon for their second. How are they for your BBs going into Manila?? I set them for night with the target as Manila and Recon even if out of range when set.

ORIGINAL: ny59giants

FP training or warships goes NavS and then either ASW or Recon for their second. How are they for your BBs going into Manila?? I set them for night with the target as Manila and Recon even if out of range when set.

Recon in the 60ish. Letting them train whenever I get a chance too. Night recon is set for Manila! [:)]

[font="Verdana"]Manila 5th attack[/font]
______________________________________________________________________________

Well, allied losses were a lot heavier than I wished for... But Manila is starting to crack!

Ground combat at Manila (79,77)

Allied Deliberate attack

Attacking force 218119 troops, 3742 guns, 6397 vehicles, Assault Value = 8111

Defending force 115599 troops, 1511 guns, 1048 vehicles, Assault Value = 2763

Allied adjusted assault: 3060

Japanese adjusted defense: 2955

Allied assault odds: 1 to 1 (fort level 3) [&o]

Allied Assault reduces fortifications to 3 [&o][&o][&o]

Combat modifiers
Defender: terrain(+), forts(+), disruption(-), supply(-) [&o]
Attacker:

Japanese ground losses:
8632 casualties reported
Squads: 102 destroyed, 728 disabled
Non Combat: 18 destroyed, 211 disabled
Engineers: 44 destroyed, 169 disabled
Guns lost 346 (46 destroyed, 300 disabled)
Vehicles lost 49 (6 destroyed, 43 disabled)
Units destroyed 1

Allied ground losses:
8225 casualties reported
Squads: 49 destroyed, 906 disabled [X(]
Non Combat: 15 destroyed, 235 disabled
Engineers: 9 destroyed, 154 disabled
Guns lost 137 (6 destroyed, 131 disabled)
Vehicles lost 406 (38 destroyed, 368 disabled)

Japanese adjusted AV has dropped from almost 13.000 to 3000 from the last attack. If that is not progress I don´t know what is! [:)]

More good news is 6th and 107th Jap IDs are completely wrecked together with some smaller BDEs. Only the 8th and 56th ID still seems to be holding. Looks like about 1000 AV was shaved off both sides with this attack. But the Japanese defenders are starting to run out of AV...[:)]

The big question is how wrecked the allied troops are. How many days of rest this time? I predict 8-10. The heavy allied losses was quite unexpected actually. Had hoped for half what I suffered.

Urban plus forts makes the attack numbers really, really big.

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

What if you bomb from really, really high on days when the weather forecast is clear or clear-ish, and during the day? If you bomb somewhere he isn't expecting, he probably won't have a CAP up, and if you bomb from high enough you should (theoretically) be above his flak ceiling.

Ok, so Nagoya may not have been a good example. I haven't loaded up the game to check. But I know Nagasaki has quite a lot of industry.

At this point, he won't be repairing any HI/LI. Anything you damage may as well be destroyed, except for the difference in VPs of 20 vs. 2. So if you're just going for damaging his economy, you could bomb during the day and target industries directly rather than relying on fires from Manpower hits, which are harder to get at the smaller Manpower centers like Nagoya even though they still have plenty of factories. What if you targeted, for example, his Ha-45 factories? You may achieve less overall destruction but more effect in his ability to resist as you reduce the number of Franks he's able to produce, etc.

IMO, if you bomb from 9k you're going to take pretty damn heavy losses. There's a reason the historical strat bombing campaign occurred at high altitudes (...right?).

Wrong, the USAAF finally begans seeing results when Curtis LeMay pushed through the low level, night fire bombing campaign.

I think he was talking about flak.

You are right about the bombing results. High altitude did not work well over Japan because of the Jet Stream, which was unknown when the campaign started.

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

What if you bomb from really, really high on days when the weather forecast is clear or clear-ish, and during the day? If you bomb somewhere he isn't expecting, he probably won't have a CAP up, and if you bomb from high enough you should (theoretically) be above his flak ceiling.

Ok, so Nagoya may not have been a good example. I haven't loaded up the game to check. But I know Nagasaki has quite a lot of industry.

At this point, he won't be repairing any HI/LI. Anything you damage may as well be destroyed, except for the difference in VPs of 20 vs. 2. So if you're just going for damaging his economy, you could bomb during the day and target industries directly rather than relying on fires from Manpower hits, which are harder to get at the smaller Manpower centers like Nagoya even though they still have plenty of factories. What if you targeted, for example, his Ha-45 factories? You may achieve less overall destruction but more effect in his ability to resist as you reduce the number of Franks he's able to produce, etc.

IMO, if you bomb from 9k you're going to take pretty damn heavy losses. There's a reason the historical strat bombing campaign occurred at high altitudes (...right?).

Sorry Lokasenna. Missed your post last night and didn´t see it until Jeff quoted you this morning.

We are playing with advanced weather off so I have no way of predicting it! I have tried some extreme high altitude bombings in sandbox. You simply don´t hit anything from 30k. I tried over 10 times with 200 B29s and not one hit was scored. And thats trying to hit MAN. Specific factories are very, very hard to hit even in daylight at 9k. Also it seems that despite the CAP being down at 10k and just a 10 minute warning they could get up to the bombers at 30k on several occasion causing massive losses to the B29s.

This might be the only use for the "B" model though but at night. Max alt at night and hope for a fluke hit!

Going at day simply isn´t an option. The results would be the same as over Manila with the accidental strike that wiped out almost 100 4Es. I would probably destroy the entire B29 force in just a day.

I´ve tried it a lot in sandbox and the only viable targets looking at the results are the MAN/HI/LI heavy Tokyo and Osaka. I think it because it simply so much of it in those two places. Anything outside those places simply doesn´t cause enough damage (at night). Not sure why but possibly something to do in which way the damage is calculated.

Its quite boring having your options so limited by the game. Perhaps in a couple of months if I can get within sweep range and my fighter pools have recovered enough a short (2-3 days) sweep offensive over the HI might open a window for the B29s to try a daylight attack. I find that quite unlikely though as I don´t think the Japanese air force will collapse in this game.

But who knows. Anything can happen!

As I understand it based on very limited knowledge what JeffK and witpgs says is true. The B29s had very limited success early on. LeMay then ordered them to go to low ALT. According to one B29 pilot they were so low that the Jap heavy AA couldn´t hit them because they couldn´t set their fuses for that low alt. Fighters wasn´t an issue as they couldn´t catch the bombers anyway so they ditched their guns too.

Going lower meant they spent less fuel giving room for more bombs. This is when results started to show. I guess this is what the different B29 models in the game is representing?

An interesting tidbit: During the firebombing of Tokyo one of the B29s pilots said the upwinds caused by the fires caused the worst turbulence he have EVER encountered and he saw at least on B29 being broken into bits by that turbulence. Talk about shaky ride! [X(]

[font="Verdana"]2nd February -44[/font]
______________________________________________________________________________

Manila was obviously the main show.

------------------------
Manilagrad
------------------------
Allied troops obviously took a beating. But FAT/DIS wasn´t as bad as last time. Its in the 40s with the units worst off. I could perhaps go as early as in 5-6 days depending on recovery.

The supply modifier on the Japanese troops were encouraging. Looks like the bombardments are burning supply faster than Erik can get it there. Flak was almost non existant. I´m still up at 12k but I don´t dare drop the altitude incase he suddenly can get supply to flow again.

A ground bombardment is ordered for tomorrow to gauge the damage done to the Japanese troops. With the adjusted AV dropped from 13k to 3k between the attacks it shows that the bombardments are taking its toll on the defenders.

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Java
------------------------
We secured a second base here. All looks abandoned. I´m heading straight for Soerabaja. I want the repairyard ASAP.

------------------------
Indochina/Thailand
------------------------
Still moving towards the next set of objectives. Looks like Erik is abandoning Hanoi and Haiphong. Probably a smart move considering the clear hexes. Allied troops will probably push due East from here and then south before reaching Nanning. The follow up forces will deal with Nanning. If an opportunity shows I will go straight North towards the Chinese troops though.

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Bomber squadron resize
------------------------
I don´t know if I should laugh or cry. The B29 squadrons resized from 7 or 10 to 15 planes. The rest from 12/16 to 24. Thats really nice except it would require hundreds of airplanes that has never been available. I will never be able to fill those squadrons out. Not a chance. Not even in 46.

Really, really slow and boring period in the game right now. Waiting, waiting and more waiting. I´ve started preparing for the March amphibious OPS but there is only so much to prepare. Mainly just moving supply, engineers and and fuel around. Boring!

ORIGINAL: JocMeister

As I understand it based on very limited knowledge what JeffK and witpgs says is true. The B29s had very limited success early on. LeMay then ordered them to go to low ALT. According to one B29 pilot they were so low that the Jap heavy AA couldn´t hit them because they couldn´t set their fuses for that low alt. Fighters wasn´t an issue as they couldn´t catch the bombers anyway so they ditched their guns too.

Going lower meant they spent less fuel giving room for more bombs. This is when results started to show. I guess this is what the different B29 models in the game is representing?

An interesting tidbit: During the firebombing of Tokyo one of the B29s pilots said the upwinds caused by the fires caused the worst turbulence he have EVER encountered and he saw at least on B29 being broken into bits by that turbulence. Talk about shaky ride! [X(]

I'll find the link, but the previous commander of 21 Air Force (or was it 20 AF) continually pushed for the same tactic, but before he could put it in place LeMay and substantial reinforcements arrived so he was shunted back to the USA and LeMay got all of the credit

From the unfortunately static Hyperwar site;
http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/AAF/Hansell/index.html

According to one B29 pilot they were so low that the Jap heavy AA couldn´t hit them because they couldn´t set their fuses for that low alt. Fighters wasn´t an issue as they couldn´t catch the bombers anyway so they ditched their guns too.

I might propose that the game mechanics do not model this behavior. My experience is that the algorithms break down effectiveness in bands starting with some definition of the lowest band and extending upwards to maximum effective range. So, far my experience is the lower you go the more deadly the flak ...[;)]

ORIGINAL: JocMeister

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

What if you bomb from really, really high on days when the weather forecast is clear or clear-ish, and during the day? If you bomb somewhere he isn't expecting, he probably won't have a CAP up, and if you bomb from high enough you should (theoretically) be above his flak ceiling.

Ok, so Nagoya may not have been a good example. I haven't loaded up the game to check. But I know Nagasaki has quite a lot of industry.

At this point, he won't be repairing any HI/LI. Anything you damage may as well be destroyed, except for the difference in VPs of 20 vs. 2. So if you're just going for damaging his economy, you could bomb during the day and target industries directly rather than relying on fires from Manpower hits, which are harder to get at the smaller Manpower centers like Nagoya even though they still have plenty of factories. What if you targeted, for example, his Ha-45 factories? You may achieve less overall destruction but more effect in his ability to resist as you reduce the number of Franks he's able to produce, etc.

IMO, if you bomb from 9k you're going to take pretty damn heavy losses. There's a reason the historical strat bombing campaign occurred at high altitudes (...right?).

Sorry Lokasenna. Missed your post last night and didn´t see it until Jeff quoted you this morning.

We are playing with advanced weather off so I have no way of predicting it! I have tried some extreme high altitude bombings in sandbox. You simply don´t hit anything from 30k. I tried over 10 times with 200 B29s and not one hit was scored. And thats trying to hit MAN. Specific factories are very, very hard to hit even in daylight at 9k. Also it seems that despite the CAP being down at 10k and just a 10 minute warning they could get up to the bombers at 30k on several occasion causing massive losses to the B29s.

This might be the only use for the "B" model though but at night. Max alt at night and hope for a fluke hit!

Going at day simply isn´t an option. The results would be the same as over Manila with the accidental strike that wiped out almost 100 4Es. I would probably destroy the entire B29 force in just a day.

I´ve tried it a lot in sandbox and the only viable targets looking at the results are the MAN/HI/LI heavy Tokyo and Osaka. I think it because it simply so much of it in those two places. Anything outside those places simply doesn´t cause enough damage (at night). Not sure why but possibly something to do in which way the damage is calculated.

Its quite boring having your options so limited by the game. Perhaps in a couple of months if I can get within sweep range and my fighter pools have recovered enough a short (2-3 days) sweep offensive over the HI might open a window for the B29s to try a daylight attack. I find that quite unlikely though as I don´t think the Japanese air force will collapse in this game.

But who knows. Anything can happen!

Does he really have a CAP up everywhere that's worth hitting? It may seem like I'm pushing you on this, but I really think there are more options and possibly some viable day bombing targets, or even unopposed night bombing targets. Or maybe you should just hold off for some weeks and then hit him out of the blue, somewhere you haven't hit him before.

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna
Does he really have a CAP up everywhere that's worth hitting? It may seem like I'm pushing you on this, but I really think there are more options and possibly some viable day bombing targets, or even unopposed night bombing targets. Or maybe you should just hold off for some weeks and then hit him out of the blue, somewhere you haven't hit him before.

Probably not! But do I dare take a chance and lose a month or two worth of replacements? [:)] The option is there of course. But I just don´t dare to take the chance!

Do you have any long range recon to figure out where he might be basing fighters? Not that he couldn't LRCAP something, but if you can establish where he's got his fighters based you can figure out where there might be weak points that are vulnerable to bombing, with fewer losses to your pilots... Just a thought. You're down to less than 10 months [;)].