Distant Worlds: Shadows

[tjhkkr]

ORIGINAL: Shark7
Haven't you heard, "If brute force doesn't get the job done, your aren't using enough!" [;)]

Truer words have never been spoken... wait... yes they have...
Stalin/Zuhkov 1943... [:D]

[Gareth_Bryne]

To ASHBERY76:

David Weber's overated sci fi book series is basically napoleonic war era ships in space so not a good example,and gameplay.

Advanced ships you acquire during the game will arrive way ahead and becomes annoying to micro managing them to make some parity.

The example from the series does apply to our discussion. If you use their mode of propulsion or Star Trek warp propulsion, here and there is a logistical problem of ship movement coordination, achieving minimum and effective firing range for weapon systems, and revectoring towards new threats or retreats.

The problem isn't only in the advanced ships. After arrival smaller and faster ships move in and get killed first. If we speak about formation tactics, then the heavies should engage first, while the E's,F's and D's provide fire support and point defence saturation. Weber's Napoleonic wall of battle taken in 3D space and the modern carrier bubble are the two probable options.

Speaking simply, three linked solutions for for fleet transit come to mind: 1), force fleet speed to the slowest ship speed; 2), force fleet to hold formation in transit with fixed distance between each ship; and 3), from Weber, Star Trek and Star Wars, have faster ships tractor the slower along with them.

P.S. Offtopic, what's with your opinion of David Weber? Just curious...

To Bingeling:

The books are fun, but if you want to play ship of the line combat, the Napoleonic era is a better choice as said above. It is a silly setting solution to force some fleet tactics into a 3d world by making the ships behave like they are 2d.

Scale is poor in the game, with resupply ships the size of planets (or not too far off). Real tactical combat in a system would probably involve using planetary objects to gain or deny position. Which seems a tad beyond the scope of the game.

Contrary to both your statements, I'm not focusing on the "line-of-battle" of the Napoleonic era and, what's more, playing it. I've understood ASHBERY76's vision of the problem as the need to achieve simultaneous arrival \\ simultaneous assault by all the ships of a fleet. Therefore I've offered Weber's examples, because, let's face it, there are not (and for some time won't be[:)]) any space fleet tactics at all, except in fiction. However, when that time comes, they will definitely grow out of existing fleet and air combat tactics and strategy. Regeneration of ideas. So there can be no forcing of tactics, and my opinion is not sillier than all of our "serious discussion" about a 4X science fiction game [:)] .

That being said, I definitely agree about the the problems of scope and scale, and the influence of planetary gravity on tactics. So here's another question for Eric - if we're getting Gravitical Weaponry, can anything be done to emulate planetary gravity?

[Bingeling]

I think it is easy enough to organize fleets so that the desired furball effect is reached. To gather multiple fleets, use a staging area. It will work quite well as long as all ships have the same jump time.

For default attack jumps, the fleet circles the target. This works well apart from very strongly defended colonies (and legendary pirate bases).

To assault strong defense base setups, I go full manual mode, and jump to another point in the system, with very passive fleet stance. I allow the ships to gather, and move them in on normal engine power to hit one base alone. Furball in action

[Darkspire]

I found the easiest way for me is just fit my ships out with different warp drives when I need to take a planet after ive sent a fleet in to 'clean' the system. That way I can have a fleet arrive in the order I want, heavy shield gunships first than can absorb fire and draw the defence fleet away from the planet while the troop ships of the fleet arrive a few seconds later and make there way to the planet usually without getting hit.

Darkspire

[Bingeling]

My troop transports wait until fighting stops to make their entrance. I run them in separate fleets. Apart from them, most other ships are OK by being shot by defenders, apart form carriers that usually have the sense to keep somewhat clear (but they are not very good at it).

[Shark7]

I solved my 'formation' problems by simply not using frigates and escorts in assault fleets. My fleets consist of destroyers, cruisers and capitals which are generally capable of absorbing quite a bit of damage. I do use frigates and escorts, and put them in their own fleets, but there are tied to systems with limited engage ranges to act as patrol and defense, not main assault units.

This system is working well for my playstyle.

[tjhkkr]

ORIGINAL: Shark7
I solved my 'formation' problems by simply not using frigates and escorts in assault fleets. My fleets consist of destroyers, cruisers and capitals which are generally capable of absorbing quite a bit of damage. I do use frigates and escorts, and put them in their own fleets, but there are tied to systems with limited engage ranges to act as patrol and defense, not main assault units. This system is working well for my playstyle.

That is how I do it myself. I never dealt with it as far as battle was concerned... I just always found the fuel situation was such that they tied the fleet down.

[Hawawaa]

Any new secrets you want to tell us? [;)]

[Bingeling]

I have never seen the need to run many ship types in fleets.

I have destroyer fleets, and main battle fleets of cruisers, capitals and carriers. And invasion fleets of transports and maybe a fleet leader of sorts.

Why anyone would want to involve an escort in any task is beyond me. Unless designed as something totally different than the AI version, of course. The frigates are not bad as automated ships once filthy rich and generally bored of things.

[Igard]

For me it's all just a role play thing. I want to recreate battles like I saw at Endor, or at the battle of Chin'toka :- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fg_6eeJ5eVc

I used to go all capitals and cruisers, but it's a bit boring to look at. With formations, it would give us a purpose for the frigates. Let them be the ones to go in first. I don't want a scratch on my new shiny Capital ship!

I always use staging areas of course. Just outside the enemy sensor range. However, with formations I would no longer have to do that. At least that's my hope anyway.

[tjhkkr]

ORIGINAL: Igard

For me it's all just a role play thing. I want to recreate battles like I saw at Endor, or at the battle of Chin'toka :- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fg_6eeJ5eVc

I used to go all capitals and cruisers, but it's a bit boring to look at. With formations, it would give us a purpose for the frigates. Let them be the ones to go in first. I don't want a scratch on my new shiny Capital ship!

I always use staging areas of course. Just outside the enemy sensor range. However, with formations I would no longer have to do that. At least that's my hope anyway.

I always use escorts and frigates for escort and garrison duty... especially with pirates all over the place...

[Bingeling]

I tend to let the AI make my ships, and the AI escort can do little to a pirate in early game, unless it is a pirate escort, which hardly can do much to a mining station anyways.

One primary annoyance in early game is that it is hard to kill pirates, since the kill rate is so slow that they get away with retreat set at 20-40% shields.

Some very few tech upgrades make anti pirate life easier, and once the empire grows a tiny bit, hopefully explorers and mining spies can start spotting nearby pirate bases.

[tjhkkr]

ORIGINAL: Bingeling

I tend to let the AI make my ships, and the AI escort can do little to a pirate in early game, unless it is a pirate escort, which hardly can do much to a mining station anyways.
One primary annoyance in early game is that it is hard to kill pirates, since the kill rate is so slow that they get away with retreat set at 20-40% shields.
Some very few tech upgrades make anti pirate life easier, and once the empire grows a tiny bit, hopefully explorers and mining spies can start spotting nearby pirate bases.

I have AWACs ships to find the pirate Bases, and Taskforce of several destroyers dedicated to pirate base elimination.
The problem is that these bases randomly appear. I build my escorts such that the give time either for a ship to escape or for a frigate or two to arrive and restore the situation.
The biggest problem there is that you cannot get them all, and I have seen pirate fragments reassemble with other pirates, and you later on end up with a pirate fleet 10 or 12 strong (at least that is what I think is happening). They are usually smaller ships, but it is usually a little bit of a surprise.

[Bingeling]

Good luck on awacs ships with no tech

Once some tech and some sign of wealth is in place, pirates are only a "problem" when pirate defenses break down due to me sending every ship into war. Or rather, the main problem is them being an annoyance. It is so much sun watching pirate bases appear as one is killed, making an eternal travel loop in a gas cloud for a pirate busting fleet.

Keep in mind that playing starting harsh homeworld with very slow research (or slower), the early days take some time to clear.

I have had the surprise of powerful pirates too, but never in "my areas". Once I start expanding (especially pre-borders), pirates far away becomes objectives, and those may have been well fed by stupid AI for the entire game, and amassed a wide selection of ships. I remember a good tech 4 ship destroyer fleet heading out to *yawn* kill another base, and only two ships limped out with little significant damage to the pirates [:D]

[feelotraveller]

Yep.  One reason not to take out pirate bases is that any ships remaining from that faction join the next nearest pirate faction.  Do it again and it snowballs.  So it pays to target the pirate ships ahead of the bases.  I'll often go so far as to wait at a system with a pirate base in it for some time to pick off the ships before I take out the base.  Or even leave the base there once I'm done.  Experience tells me that this slows the spawn rate so you do not end up playing whack a mole.
 
There are other pirates though, ones which tales are told about...  [;)]

[Bingeling]

I really hope the pirate love in shadows is proper love, since the current ones don't work well.

I have never noticed pirates being inherited. I have always assumed the bases spawn ships once its pirates scores some kills. As for whack a mole, I doubt ships were a problem. I had the cloud well scanned, and the ships of new bases never left base before being busted with it. I guess the main problem in that game was a well development ring galaxy, with few spots to spawn in.

The other pirates are fun, but far to common for me when the game matures. And there is the silly feature of locating their base through random clicking on possible systems...

I am rusty, I think I have only played two legends games of some length. Or I may have forgotten one.

[feelotraveller]

Pirate ships from eliminated factions definitely transfrer their alliegances to nearby factions.  I assume that it always happens, but it is certainly frequent.  If you play another Legends game take note of the names of pirate ships you encounter and their faction.  You may well see the same ship working for another faction later in the game if you eliminate the faction without first taking out the ship.  (This is easiest to notice when the ship is an advanced one from a pirate ambush.)
 
Pirate bases spawn ships on creation (2 to 3 escorts and/or frigates, on the settings I play), after destroying empire bases, and after taking money for a bribe or selling something.  Haven't noticed if there is any other way...
 

[Bingeling]

Thinking about it, I have seen a "random gang" having the phantom fleet. Not that they seemed to do much with it. I seem to remember a lot of pirate ships sitting without fuel at the outskirts of my systems, but this may have been in older versions.

And it would make total sense for ships and their crews to join new "bases" if the old one is lost.

No new ships for pirates on killing private sector ships? I guess they don't kill so many, though. If you got a hyperdrive it is not hard to escape if you never plan on fighting.

[PS Pita]

So, is this expansion still coming out this year? In December? I remember the devs saying it would probably be out
in December before Christmas. Would be nice if it was.

[feelotraveller]

ORIGINAL: Bingeling

No new ships for pirates on killing private sector ships? I guess they don't kill so many, though. If you got a hyperdrive it is not hard to escape if you never plan on fighting.

Yes, I missed that. I guess they probably would but I have never observed it. [;)]