Matrix Games Forums

ORIGINAL: IainMcNeil

We are developing the following wargames internally :

Close Combat
Steel Tigers
Field of Glory Empires
Helping with Field of Glory

Well, in the complete absence of info from the devs, let's do what the internet does best--engage in wild speculation!

I note that all of the games other than Steel Tigers listed above use a "3Dish" view rather than top-down (I guess with the Archon engine). So my hunch is that Steel Tigers will use the same view, rather than the traditional top-down view. Also, I'm not really familiar with the Close Combat series anymore, but I don't think that any of the other games listed above use hexes either... So I'd guess either squares or maybe point-to-point movement/fire (ie, no hexes or squares, just a map). Of course these guesses could be completely wrong, but it sure seems like that if the internal dev team is used to working with certain game types, they will keep doing so to crank out the game in a more efficient manner.

Personally I don't think I would mind a 3Dish view, as long as it avoids the slightly cartoony look of Battle Academy (or Panzer Corps?), although I'm not sure that the approach will work as well for Steel Tigers as for FOG2 or Close Combat, simply because the battlefields will be bigger in Steel Tigers, and it will be harder to maintain situational awareness without a top down view. That said, IIRC if you zoom out enough in FOG2 you end up with a top-down view, so maybe even that isn't a big deal either. But I supposed that some traditionalists will miss the top-down approach.

And I'm sure that the game will be broken down into many DLCs, that is how game economics work these days. But I sure hope that the first game includes the East Front instead of only D-Day/Battle of the Bulge, or a DLC for the East is available immediately upon release.

ORIGINAL: 76mm

I note that all of the games other than Steel Tigers listed above use a "3Dish" view rather than top-down (I guess with the Archon engine). So my hunch is that Steel Tigers will use the same view, rather than the traditional top-down view.

At least Battle Academy, Sengoku Jidai, and Aggressors: Ancient Rome have a toggle switch for top-down view. Graphics are still 3d for the first 2 games, just from different perspective.

And I'm sure that the game will be broken down into many DLCs, that is how game economics work these days. But I sure hope that the first game includes the East Front instead of only D-Day/Battle of the Bulge, or a DLC for the East is available immediately upon release.

SPWAW got bunch of DLC called Mega Campaigns. Original Steel Panthers had DLC also and I have some. Difference is DLC of the time (original/first Steel Panthers) were delivered on floppy disks by mail, or bought from a computer store.

I don't so much mind the view angle. It's how detailed the game will be is my concern. Fingers crossed it can do the complexity of SP and hopefully improve on it.

We all know there is no chance it will cover the same scope SP did. Those days are dead and buried. I hope it starts with something other than West Front 44 onwards. Though knowing Slitherine they'll probably want the US in at start. Maybe proved wrong here though.

Anyway if it has everything a grog like tactical wargame should have I will be happy. We haven't had that really since release of SP. Matrix hasn't (apart from their SP version) actually released a new hard core tactical wargame at this scale, yes been a couple of boardgame conversions which really are hampered by the boardgame design. Imagine the Grand Strat or Operational gamers having to wait so long!! Other than SP I think that only Squad Battles has come the closest but even that has a couple of mechanics that prevent it from being superb. Oh if only that source code was given out! Hello new ammo mechanic, wound mechanic and multi level buildings!

Sorry but it is not Steel Panthers unless its top down view like all SP games. If its 3D then it's not SP no matter which way you cut it.

ORIGINAL: Zovs

Sorry but it is not Steel Panthers unless its top down view like all SP games. If its 3D then it's not SP no matter which way you cut it.

Just stop that. That's not true at all and you're just expressing a nostalgic preference. If the original Steel Panthers were released today, I'm certain it would've been 3D and not rinky dink "top down" lol.

ORIGINAL: Capitaine

ORIGINAL: Zovs

Sorry but it is not Steel Panthers unless its top down view like all SP games. If its 3D then it's not SP no matter which way you cut it.

Just stop that. That's not true at all and you're just expressing a nostalgic preference. If the original Steel Panthers were released today, I'm certain it would've been 3D and not rinky dink "top down" lol.

I would think they will offer multiple views. 2D and 3D similar to Tillers Campaign Series. The only way to please both camps.

Steel Panthers is very much like ASL, Top Down included, not some funky whacky 3D imagery. If you want that you got Combat Mission for the "3D" stuff.

We have been playing (those that are true to SP series) Steel Panthers for over 20+ years in one form or another and none of these are in 3D land.

So no, if Steel Tigers in is 3D then its not Steel Panthers at all, its just Combat Mission/Panzer Korps/Panzer General 2.

No thanks.

Really don't get that. The isometric view is nothing like Combat Mission and the like.

It's the gameplay\mechanics that makes it play like an updated SP not the visuals.

ORIGINAL: Zovs



Steel Panthers is very much like ASL, Top Down included, not some funky whacky 3D imagery. If you want that you got Combat Mission for the "3D" stuff.

We have been playing (those that are true to SP series) Steel Panthers for over 20+ years in one form or another and none of these are in 3D land.

So no, if Steel Tigers in is 3D then its not Steel Panthers at all, its just Combat Mission/Panzer Korps/Panzer General 2.

No thanks.

By Isometric I am assuming you mean like how Panzer Korps, Order of Battle and JTCS is?

If so then that is still not Steel Panthers, Steel Panthers has always been a top down view, much like ASL, and there is really nothing wrong with that. In fact the two camps (SPWaW and SPWW2/MBT) have a huge fan base and I would say 99% of them don't wan't a Panzer Korps 3D view.

ORIGINAL: Zap
I would think they will offer multiple views. 2D and 3D similar to Tillers Campaign Series. The only way to please both camps.

I wonder if this would be feasible, or if they'd have to have double the artwork. The difference with the Campaign Series is that the 2d view is made up of NATO counters or silhouettes, not camo'd vehicles with movable turrets, etc. But maybe it wouldn't be very hard/time consuming.

Personally I'm pretty much indifferent between top-down or isometric; if isometric, sure it might not be "Steel Panthers" but it would still be a very welcome addition to my hard drive if it has crisp graphics and steel-panthers-level detail/realism. I don't care what you call it...

ALL I really want from Steel Tigers, is Steel Panthers ala 2019.

Steel Panthers, when you can understand the install process, and can find the add on fixes and super modded perks, and combine it with the Mega Campaigns, is still an awesome experience.

All I really want from Steel Tigers is a program that is ok with a Windows 10 liking, quad core type processor equipped and 8 gig Ram capable, TB drive using computer.
I don't like that my modern rig is unable to run a Windows 98 era program without geek skill. It's annoying, that we are expected to constantly upgrade our rigs, and yet, these super powerful rigs can't run something my bloody 486 could.

So the more it doesn't look like Steel Panthers, with modern code, the more it is likely to totally miss the mark with the Steel Panthers community.
I don't play 3d and I don't play RTS and I don't play World of Anything. I don't consider any form of shooter to be anywhere close to what I call wargaming. I still like pushing cardboard around a paper map. I'm 57, and unlikely to change any time soon.

And NONE of the gamers I've ever met called gamers, have ever heard of Matrix Games let alone 2by3. I think that REEEEALLY needs to sink in.
We are your market.

Excellent point MrsWargamer ...

ORIGINAL: MrsWargamer

ALL I really want from Steel Tigers, is Steel Panthers ala 2019.

Steel Panthers, when you can understand the install process, and can find the add on fixes and super modded perks, and combine it with the Mega Campaigns, is still an awesome experience.

All I really want from Steel Tigers is a program that is ok with a Windows 10 liking, quad core type processor equipped and 8 gig Ram capable, TB drive using computer.
I don't like that my modern rig is unable to run a Windows 98 era program without geek skill. It's annoying, that we are expected to constantly upgrade our rigs, and yet, these super powerful rigs can't run something my bloody 486 could.

So the more it doesn't look like Steel Panthers, with modern code, the more it is likely to totally miss the mark with the Steel Panthers community.
I don't play 3d and I don't play RTS and I don't play World of Anything. I don't consider any form of shooter to be anywhere close to what I call wargaming. I still like pushing cardboard around a paper map. I'm 57, and unlikely to change any time soon.

And NONE of the gamers I've ever met called gamers, have ever heard of Matrix Games let alone 2by3. I think that REEEEALLY needs to sink in.
We are your market.

MrsWargamer, if I may...

I am 59 years old. I do not play RTS or "World of Anything" either. 3D does NOT mean it's not hex map and turn-based. It is simply a manner of rendering images. Many turn-based games are 3D. I know, I've played them. A 3D Steel Tigers modeled on the old Steel Panthers would look fantastic; much more realistic than the original. So do not panic about 2x3 or anyone else making an RTS game. I have never heard a word of that. Those are scare tactics.

Everyone just needs to calm tf down.

No one really has ANY idea what Steel Tigers will look like. No one has said a single thing actually.

I should clarify. '3d' to me, is Combat Mission type 3d. RTS is predominantly not Close Combat type real time.

I don't really consider the image view of Steel Panthers, and Battle Academy, and Panzer Corps to be different enough to be worth calling this distinctly different.

Didn't they say that Steel Tigers was going to use the Archon engine ?

That's what Sanctus Reach uses.

I could see that being translated over to historical scenarios .....

ORIGINAL: MrsWargamer
No one really has ANY idea what Steel Tigers will look like. No one has said a single thing actually.

Yeah, the total silence is pretty bizarre at this point...to announce a game four years ago and not be able to say a.single.word about it at this point? Pretty weird...

But, assuming that they're using the Archon engine and that the internal Matrix team is working on it (both true as far as we know), I'd bet that the game will feature an isometric view.

ORIGINAL: MrsWargamer
I don't really consider the image view of Steel Panthers, and Battle Academy, and Panzer Corps to be different enough to be worth calling this distinctly different.

I totally agree with Capitaine; isometric or top-down is purely a matter of visual representation, and an isometric view could look pretty nice. I'd be shocked if the game were anything but turn-based, although I do really hope that they stick with hexes instead of tiles or something else.

Personally I'm happy with isometric.

I'm cool if doesn't use hexes or tiles but a more realistic approach ie distance measured in pixels

I'm cool if it drops IGOUGO for WEGO (that isn't real-time by the way either). Flashpoint Campaigns has a fantastic turn resolution system.

Steel Panthers was renowned at the time for its depth and realism. Since then things have moved on and systems are far more powerful. So to be perfectly honest with you Id be very very happy if Steel Tigers becomes renowned for its depth and realism pushing PC power of today. I think just a visual upgrade to SP yes would be great, but also I feel it won't then be the new innovative in-depth game SP was in its day.

Just making a new visual look to old SP is not 2by3s style. They will I'm sure want to push current systems hard and use new innovative ways to make ST the long time classic SP was\is.

If you just want SP again, well you have it...go play😉😁

I imagine those SP obsessives will have many issues with the new game, cos it isn't SP. However if done aswell as SP was back in the day the new game will have its own devotees for many years to come.

In the end all I care about is that it has all the tactical features\mechanics, immersion and gameplay to make it by far the No1 tactical wargame ever released on PC.

ORIGINAL: wodin
Just making a new visual look to old SP is not 2by3s style. They will I'm sure want to push current systems hard and use new innovative ways to make ST the long time classic SP was\is.

But Iain is quoted above as saying the Matrix's internal team, rather than 2x3, is working on Steel Tigers, so it appears that there has been a change...

WEGO, oh I so want WEGO. I don't actually feel that lucky though

2by3 and Matrix I thought. Isn't that what was said from start? Joel actually stated that either himself or Gary favourite scale to develop was tactical so looking forward to it.

Also I think I asked him about it in interview.

I think Matrix is lending them a hand and their Archon engine. Obviously they will need an Archon engine expert or two from Matrix to help them.

I'm surprised Gary and Joel would just hand over such a big IP just like that with no input. If that's the case though then without their amazing talent my enthusiasm and faith in end product evaporates. No offence to Matrix team but they haven't done a hard core wargame yet and this I feel requires the experience 2by3 has. I think it's asking way to much to expect Matrix team can deliver something on par 2by3 would have done. The expectation is very very high and the development I imagine pretty complex and intense. Even more so if it's just the Matrix team developing it.