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RE: The early air war
Posted: Tue Dec 05, 2017 12:52 am
by HardLuckYetAgain
The more I'm searching the more I'm finding out that there were a ton of bombing missions done on both sides on many different cities. For instance Moscow was a target of bombing raid 134s times during the war. Oct 29 41 was the largest raid with over 300+ bombers of which 47 planes were shot down. Moscow would be on the Germans list of 4 of the worst places to bomb during WW2 Malta, London, Leningrad and Moscow.(Plus the Russians had a very large number of fighters in this area) Also seems that everything I'm reading that the AA was pretty effective for the Soviets but in the game Soviet AA couldn't hit a side of a building 1 mm away.
I found some more interesting things but will wait until I get the books in my hand on the Air war in Russia during WW2. I'm finding out that the Soviets aren't as bad as the game is making them out to be. Just the 1st phase was the problem.
RE: The early air war
Posted: Tue Dec 05, 2017 6:00 am
by 56ajax
ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain
The more I'm searching the more I'm finding out that there were a ton of bombing missions done on both sides on many different cities. For instance Moscow was a target of bombing raid 134s times during the war. Oct 29 41 was the largest raid with over 300+ bombers of which 47 planes were shot down. Moscow would be on the Germans list of 4 of the worst places to bomb during WW2 Malta, London, Leningrad and Moscow.(Plus the Russians had a very large number of fighters in this area) Also seems that everything I'm reading that the AA was pretty effective for the Soviets but in the game Soviet AA couldn't hit a side of a building 1 mm away.
I found some more interesting things but will wait until I get the books in my hand on the Air war in Russia during WW2. I'm finding out that the Soviets aren't as bad as the game is making them out to be. Just the 1st phase was the problem.
Apart from game mechanics there is another reason for the historical difference. The PVO AA Regiments in the game have the TOE of a PVO AA Battalion (not a regiment), so they are missing about 75% of their (historical) guns. This is my understanding after having read Askey. Also there are a couple of minor AA units that are not in the game. Askey also said that if the Germans had entered Moscow or Leningrad these units would have been used as ground troops.
(When I get my act together I will be posting on this in Scenario Design)
RE: The early air war
Posted: Tue Dec 05, 2017 7:37 am
by Denniss
In a future version the PVO Rgts in Moscow will be represented by non-buildable PVO AA Brigades with ~100 76-85mm guns, about 4x the size of current PVO Rgts.
I doubt the PVO Rgts in other locations were equally strong, except Leningrad which may have had these enlarged/special PVO Rgts as well.
RE: The early air war
Posted: Tue Dec 05, 2017 7:53 am
by 56ajax
ORIGINAL: Denniss
In a future version the PVO Rgts in Moscow will be represented by non-buildable PVO AA Brigades with ~100 76-85mm guns, about 4x the size of current PVO Rgts.
I doubt the PVO Rgts in other locations were equally strong, except Leningrad which may have had these enlarged/special PVO Rgts as well.
Correct. The PVO Regts were as strong as the priority of the city/installation they were defending. Moscow, Leningrad and Kiev were probably close to 100% TOE, and then it goes down hill from there.
RE: The early air war
Posted: Tue Dec 05, 2017 8:55 am
by Dreamslayer
ORIGINAL: Denniss
In a future version the PVO Rgts in Moscow will be represented by non-buildable PVO AA Brigades with ~100 76-85mm guns, about 4x the size of current PVO Rgts.
I doubt the PVO Rgts in other locations were equally strong, except Leningrad which may have had these enlarged/special PVO Rgts as well.
Sorry, but why PVO Brigades in Moscow instead PVO regiments?
At start of the war the PVO of Moscow was presented by 1st PVO corps which has 6 PVO regiments. This corps has around 550 76-85mm AA guns.
Same about PVO of Leningrad. There was 2nd PVO corps - 6 PVO regiments with around 600 76-85mm AA guns.
3rd PVO corps Baku, around 400 these guns.
At start of the war USSR has around 3300 76-85mm AA guns and 42% of them was in these 3 PVO corps.
The separate PVO Brigades it was other PVO formations(e.g. 7th-Minsk, 13th-Belostok). There was also PVO brigade areas(e.g. Vyborg, Kishinev).
Also there was 2 PVO divisions - 3rd(Kiev) and 4th(Lvov).
RE: The early air war
Posted: Tue Dec 05, 2017 12:08 pm
by Telemecus
ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain
Moscow would be on the Germans list of 4 of the worst places to bomb during WW2 Malta, London, Leningrad and Moscow.
I have been thinking a lot about this sentence. It seems to me it needs to be dis-aggregated a bit. British folk memory of German bombing tends to paint Coventry as being the worst hit. But almost certainly London received more bombing over a longer period. The repeated story of Coventry relates to a single raid over a smaller city. But apart from the docks the German bombing of London had little industrial targeting. The bombing of the Midlands and Belfast though did have real impacts on the aircraft industry which was intended. On a per square kilometre basis I am guessing Malta was the most heavily bombed in the war? But that was almost exclusively military targets - actual ships, aircraft etc. As I have heard so little about bombing of Moscow or Leningrad in what category do they belong? Was this bombing of military airfields and ports (like Malta), bombing of population (like London), or targetting industry (like perhaps Coventry or Belfast)?
RE: The early air war
Posted: Tue Dec 05, 2017 12:34 pm
by HardLuckYetAgain
ORIGINAL: Telemecus
ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain
Moscow would be on the Germans list of 4 of the worst places to bomb during WW2 Malta, London, Leningrad and Moscow.
I have been thinking a lot about this sentence. It seems to me it needs to be dis-aggregated a bit. British folk memory of German bombing tends to paint Coventry as being the worst hit. But almost certainly London received more bombing over a longer period. The repeated story of Coventry relates to a single raid over a smaller city. But apart from the docks the German bombing of London had little industrial targeting. The bombing of the Midlands and Belfast though did have real impacts on the aircraft industry which was intended. On a per square kilometre basis I am guessing Malta was the most heavily bombed in the war? But that was almost exclusively military targets - actual ships, aircraft etc. As I have heard so little about bombing of Moscow or Leningrad in what category do they belong? Was this bombing of military airfields and ports (like Malta), bombing of population (like London), or targetting industry (like perhaps Coventry or Belfast)?
The sentence relates to the "actual defense" that was put up of the respective four places against German Bombers. Beyond that I don't know the strategic or tactical nature that was being persued until I dig deeper into the subject. But there does seem to be some very knowledgable persons that could probably answer the question(s).
RE: The early air war
Posted: Sun Dec 10, 2017 6:36 am
by RKhan
Just catching up on this thread...
It would be incredibly nice if one did not have to guess if bombing happened in day or night when reading the battle reports. After all, it is hardly a secret to those being bombed. [:)]
R
RE: The early air war
Posted: Mon Dec 11, 2017 6:52 pm
by HardLuckYetAgain
Once again I go and bomb a Rumanian brigade and bombers that came from the north, no aa joined. I had bombers come in from the south and BAM all kinds of flak as I flew over the PZ corps to get to the Rumanian brigade. the PZ Corps is 6-12 hexes from the place I bombed. pretty much all the units around the hex bombed are brigades so it had to be AA fire from the PZ corps as I flew over it unless Dinglir has 72 88mm, 32 37mm, 4 sdkfz, 42 37mm, and 48 75mm in his HQ sitting 2 hexes behind it but I doubt it since I have been bombing this area and only low caliber AA has been joining in until I flew over the damn PZ corps. I will post pictures later.
RE: The early air war
Posted: Mon Dec 11, 2017 7:35 pm
by EwaldvonKleist
ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain
Once again I go and bomb a Rumanian brigade and bombers that came from the north, no aa joined. I had bombers come in from the south and BAM all kinds of flak as I flew over the PZ corps to get to the Rumanian brigade. the PZ Corps is 6-12 hexes from the place I bombed. pretty much all the units around the hex bombed are brigades so it had to be AA fire from the PZ corps as I flew over it unless Dinglir has 72 88mm, 32 37mm, 4 sdkfz, 42 37mm, and 48 75mm in his HQ sitting 2 hexes behind it but I doubt it since I have been bombing this area and only low caliber AA has been joining in until I flew over the damn PZ corps. I will post pictures later.
_____________________________
I have paid some attention to this after you mentioned it and it is even shown in the combat reports.
RE: The early air war
Posted: Tue Dec 12, 2017 1:44 am
by Dinglir
ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain
Once again I go and bomb a Rumanian brigade and bombers that came from the north, no aa joined. I had bombers come in from the south and BAM all kinds of flak as I flew over the PZ corps to get to the Rumanian brigade. the PZ Corps is 6-12 hexes from the place I bombed. pretty much all the units around the hex bombed are brigades so it had to be AA fire from the PZ corps as I flew over it unless Dinglir has 72 88mm, 32 37mm, 4 sdkfz, 42 37mm, and 48 75mm in his HQ sitting 2 hexes behind it but I doubt it since I have been bombing this area and only low caliber AA has been joining in until I flew over the damn PZ corps. I will post pictures later.
Let me know the hex you are talking about and I'll look it up when I get the turn.
The flight path does matter in AA fire as far as I know. This is another one of those "things" in the WITE air war, as you can not set flight path, except by chosing staging base. I look very much forward to WitE2 i nthis regard.
RE: The early air war
Posted: Tue Dec 12, 2017 4:42 pm
by HardLuckYetAgain
ORIGINAL: Dinglir
ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain
Once again I go and bomb a Rumanian brigade and bombers that came from the north, no aa joined. I had bombers come in from the south and BAM all kinds of flak as I flew over the PZ corps to get to the Rumanian brigade. the PZ Corps is 6-12 hexes from the place I bombed. pretty much all the units around the hex bombed are brigades so it had to be AA fire from the PZ corps as I flew over it unless Dinglir has 72 88mm, 32 37mm, 4 sdkfz, 42 37mm, and 48 75mm in his HQ sitting 2 hexes behind it but I doubt it since I have been bombing this area and only low caliber AA has been joining in until I flew over the damn PZ corps. I will post pictures later.
Let me know the hex you are talking about and I'll look it up when I get the turn.
The flight path does matter in AA fire as far as I know. This is another one of those "things" in the WITE air war, as you can not set flight path, except by chosing staging base. I look very much forward to WitE2 i nthis regard.
Yeah, I was saying in the past it does. After just having it happen a couple of more times in this game it defiantly does contribute along flight paths. I will give you the Rumanian location when I finish the turn. But that won't be for a few days since I just got put on an emergency job until Friday so my time is limited for the game at the moment.
RE: The early air war
Posted: Wed Dec 20, 2017 2:25 pm
by M60A3TTS
To keep the conversation alive, any near term patch would be welcome if it included more granularity on the setting for flying distance from airbase. Let us put a number in a box rather than < 20, <40 etc.
RE: The early air war
Posted: Wed Dec 20, 2017 2:45 pm
by morvael
No near term patch. MIFID2 trumps all. After that comes multiple illnesses (all at once). WitE is now on a distant 3rd place. Let's hope 2018 will be better than the last two months of 2017.
RE: The early air war
Posted: Wed Dec 20, 2017 2:52 pm
by M60A3TTS
ok, thanks for the update M.
RE: The early air war
Posted: Wed Dec 20, 2017 3:49 pm
by Telemecus
ORIGINAL: morvael
MIFID2 trumps all.
Markets in Financial Instruments Directive? That is my world too!
RE: The early air war
Posted: Thu Dec 21, 2017 4:20 am
by morvael
Yeah, the same. I hate it, but I have no choice but to do my job. D-Day is so close...