Matrix Games Forums

ORIGINAL: Portal

Sorry, everyone. I was hoping Matrix WiF would be my entry point into the WiF world but I no longer have faith in this project.

This timeline revision to a July 2008 release is the third significant release date revision this year. Over the next 18 months, there's no reason to believe release won't be pushed back even further.

As much as I respect the work Steve is doing, and trying to do, I now believe too much is being bitten off for this first release. Earlier posters emphasized the development time risk associated with AI opponent programming, and I now concur with their beliefs. Focusing on multi-player online live play (a la VASSAL), and setting AI aside, would help get product into players' hands within a reasonable time frame. A computer AI opponent could then be added in an upgrade patch or expansion pack. I believe most players are interested in MWiF for online multi-player play, with an AI opponent being a secondary consideration.

It seems this project needs more development resources, and most particularly, a project manager with deeper scheduling experience. Good luck to Matrix and this development team and hopefully this project will come to fruition eventually.

I appreciate your pain, but I must heartily disagree. The trend in computer wargaming against the inclusion of a challenging A.I. is alarming to me. It's as if the whole industry has simply given up on the issue. In Steve we have a dedicated A.I. expert who is willing to prove the nay-sayers wrong, and I, for one, am excited at the prospect. Moreover, I have seen way, way too many games released before they should have been. (I'm sure most posters will agree with me here.) Taking more time to get it right is fine with me.

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

I had trouble logging into Matrix this morning or I would have posted this earlier.
------------------------------------------------------
December 1, 2006 Status Report for Matrix Games’ MWIF Forum

Accomplishments of November

Project Management
I did my first detailed project plan in mid-October and have more or less kept on track against that to date. However, my estimation of my time required to complete MWIF product 1 is over 3300 hours. Roughly, the big items are coding/modifying: Player Interface and the AI Opponent (~800 hours each), Game Engine and Rules (~400 hours each), and the Tutorials, PBEM, and Documentation (200 - 300 hours range for each). These are broken down into finer detail, with everything rounded off to units of 10 hours.
...

This works out to me completing my tasks in December 2007. David Heath translates that to a release at Origins in July 2008.

Instead of whingeing about "July 2008", everyone who reads this should be saying to themselves, "yay, we have a project manager who knows how to plan a realistic schedule!"

ORIGINAL: Rexor

ORIGINAL: Portal

Sorry, everyone. I was hoping Matrix WiF would be my entry point into the WiF world but I no longer have faith in this project.

This timeline revision to a July 2008 release is the third significant release date revision this year. Over the next 18 months, there's no reason to believe release won't be pushed back even further.

As much as I respect the work Steve is doing, and trying to do, I now believe too much is being bitten off for this first release. Earlier posters emphasized the development time risk associated with AI opponent programming, and I now concur with their beliefs. Focusing on multi-player online live play (a la VASSAL), and setting AI aside, would help get product into players' hands within a reasonable time frame. A computer AI opponent could then be added in an upgrade patch or expansion pack. I believe most players are interested in MWiF for online multi-player play, with an AI opponent being a secondary consideration.

It seems this project needs more development resources, and most particularly, a project manager with deeper scheduling experience. Good luck to Matrix and this development team and hopefully this project will come to fruition eventually.

I appreciate your pain, but I must heartily disagree. The trend in computer wargaming against the inclusion of a challenging A.I. is alarming to me. It's as if the whole industry has simply given up on the issue. In Steve we have a dedicated A.I. expert who is willing to prove the nay-sayers wrong, and I, for one, am excited at the prospect. Moreover, I have seen way, way too many games released before they should have been. (I'm sure most posters will agree with me here.) Taking more time to get it right is fine with me.

Honestly here my take.

The board game had no AI. Steve signed on to do the AI.

Shipping a product without AI is alarming from the traditional producers perspective.

However I'm sure you'd be surprized how many people would buy the product Pre-AI at a premium price. Driving perhaps hundreds of miles to play a game that takes 8 hours for a good session is a draining experience. Netplay of the same game at your convienience is a blessed luxury. Delay of the game for an AI is honestly frustrating. How many of us have been waiting more than 10 years for a game that simply functioned online?

Please consider making the AI a plug-in, delayed feature or whatever you might call it. None of us are getting younger, a few of us aren't even in great health. I'd like to play before (god forbid) I or my mates lost the chance. How about a voucher for the AI?

*shrug* never hurts to try even if it feels like your pleadings will be pushed aside by business concerns.

 The 5 groups of contention within MWiF:  

(1) I must have AI.
(2) I must have Play by Email (PBEM).
(3) I must have all the above.
(4) I don't care about AI.
(5) I don't care about PBEM.


Groups 1 and 2 are understandingly very vocal. That is why so many threads are devoted to them in this forum.

Just because we don't read much from Group 2, don't even think the PBEM people aren’t reading these posts! 


Link to why MWiF must have AI and PBEM.

ORIGINAL: Mziln

 The 5 groups of contention within MWiF:  

(1) I must have AI.
(2) I must have Play by Email (PBEM).
(3) I must have all the above.
(4) I don't care about AI.
(5) I don't care about PBEM.


Groups 1 and 2 are understandingly very vocal. That is why so many threads are devoted to them in this forum.

Just because we don't read much from Group 2, don't even think the PBEM people aren’t reading these posts! 


Link to why MWiF must have AI and PBEM.

I agree with the above and I am a member of Group 3. After over twenty years working with and for software companies I predict Group 2 will become more more vocal once it is released and they can comment better.

Flipper

ORIGINAL: Portal

Flipper,

I'm willing to call you on your comments, and bet you a fair amount more than 1 U.S. dollar. [8D][:'(]

A dollar is fine

ORIGINAL: Mziln

The 5 groups of contention within MWiF:

(1) I must have AI.
(2) I must have Play by Email (PBEM).
(3) I must have all the above.
(4) I don't care about AI.
(5) I don't care about PBEM.


Groups 1 and 2 are understandingly very vocal. That is why so many threads are devoted to them in this forum.

Just because we don't read much from Group 2, don't even think the PBEM people aren’t reading these posts!


Link to why MWiF must have AI and PBEM.

I must say that the reasoning here is VERY bad. Just becourse we dont hear from you we sould not forget that you are there. Hey vice versa. The only reason the threads are in the forum, is to help Steve with the AI; to help speed up the project; to help YOU. And all you whiners, listen here, you say you have been waiting 10 years, then whats 1 and a half more then...? Quit whining, the game will not come out sooner becourse of that, pitch in instead. Do some write-ups, and help speed-up the production.

And on the betting front, im on flipperwasirish´s side. Im in for a $.

Andi

Won't buy it without AI. Never played PBEM nor online before. Think esp. playing MWIF PBEM with all it's subphases might be too tedious for me. But like to read AARs.

Regards

Well, in my case, I'm definitely not one of those who've been waiting almost foolhardily it seems for 10 years for the release of this game. My interest in WiF came to be over the last 12 months as I'm looking to expand the scale of my WWII wargaming interests beyond the tactical (ASL) and operational (Gamers OCS) levels.

I leave monster games and scenarios out on my FtF basement gaming table plenty as it is, so I was hoping to enter the WiF world through a great PC game. The wargamers I know have little interest in computer AIs, as gaming against a machine offers none of the social interaction we like when we play games.

VASL / VASSAL in conjunction with Skype have been fantastic tools for us to get together to play games live. It helps us manage schedules and continue mutiple large games and scenarios at once. We would be looking to play MWiF for its live online features because we enjoy this experience most. As it looks like right now, I'll just switch over to a copy of the Final Edition (Classic) board game and try to get the most out of the VASSAL WiF module.

Frankly, I'm surprised by the players who would rather an AI opponent than live online play. On the Internet, it's straightforward to find human opponents and a much more rewarding experience to play. Last time I checked, computer AIs still don't have a great sense of humour.

How many more good opponents will there be if they have an AI to help them learn the rules?

At the very least, an AI opponent will help new WIF players get up to speed. At the very best, it will provide a useful way to hone one's skills and try out strategies.

ORIGINAL: Graf Zeppelin
.. you say you have been waiting 10 years, then whats 1 and a half more then...?

A close Wif gaming buddy was diagnosed with a severe heart issue and doesn't work any longer as result. He sits in his house and plays computer games in most of his spare time. So yes I care about the schedule, but what I attempted to do was see if my comment had any effect on decisions already made. I didn't need a link to explain why decisions had been made the way they had.

ORIGINAL: Graf Zeppelin
Quit whining, the game will not come out sooner becourse of that, pitch in instead. Do some write-ups, and help speed-up the production.

Some of us work 60+ hours a week just like Steve. I strongly doubt write-ups are delaying production of the game. Those who have the spare time are donating. Throwing insults contributes nothing positive, and doesn't even cast the game in a good light. All prospective players of the game should have a chance to comment regardless of the decisions made. Being defensive on behalf of Steve and/or throwing insults is non-productive.

I've mentioned this before, but since we have some new members I'll throw it out again:

PBEM WiF using Vassal or Cyberboard is a wonderful way to get your WiF fix in while we patiently wait for MWiF to be completed. In the past 18 months I have completed 3 full WiF games with various people around the world. My last game was against a fellow from Italy, and despite our time difference of 7 hours we were able to play the Global Scenario campaign through JA '42 in less then 2 months. It works surprisingly well, especially if you use the ACTS dice roller which not only provides cheat proof dice rolls, but also keeps a record of every roll as a game reference. If you're anxious to start playing, send me an e-mail. I have a growing collection of names that are looking for opponents.

Cheers

John

Any updates as to when this might be coming out?

Any news at all as to when this might be coming out?

ORIGINAL: wargameplayer
Any news at all as to when this might be coming out?

See post #252.

ORIGINAL: Cheesehead

I've mentioned this before, but since we have some new members I'll throw it out again:

PBEM WiF using Vassal or Cyberboard is a wonderful way to get your WiF fix in while we patiently wait for MWiF to be completed. In the past 18 months I have completed 3 full WiF games with various people around the world. My last game was against a fellow from Italy, and despite our time difference of 7 hours we were able to play the Global Scenario campaign through JA '42 in less then 2 months. It works surprisingly well, especially if you use the ACTS dice roller which not only provides cheat proof dice rolls, but also keeps a record of every roll as a game reference. If you're anxious to start playing, send me an e-mail. I have a growing collection of names that are looking for opponents.

Cheers

John

Sounds cool.

But you actually need to have the game set-up at home as well right?


----

Thanks Steve for a deadline.

Anyone who feel like helping out doing write-ups for landunits send me a PM!

Wow that is quite an increase in project release.  Given the human life span etc..lol this thing has gone on sorta long.  It sounds like the guy is spending every waking moment on it too. 9 hour days and it's just not going well. 

Maybe another company could pick up the project and get it into shape. It's a shame to see some a great product delay so long in actually seeing daylight.  Lots of the people who are waiting for it to come out tend to be older guys, and may die before ever getting to play at this rate!

ORIGINAL: wargameplayer

Lots of the people who are waiting for it to come out tend to be older guys, and may die before ever getting to play at this rate!

If you are sitting in Valhalla I don't this would be a real concern...

Flipper

ORIGINAL: wargameplayer

Wow that is quite an increase in project release. Given the human life span etc..lol this thing has gone on sorta long. It sounds like the guy is spending every waking moment on it too. 9 hour days and it's just not going well.

Maybe another company could pick up the project and get it into shape. It's a shame to see some a great product delay so long in actually seeing daylight. Lots of the people who are waiting for it to come out tend to be older guys, and may die before ever getting to play at this rate!

There are plenty of ways to contribute so that the game get´s out earlier. Right now the AI-threads are open for discussion and I am sure Steve would love to have your input. Be constructive and help out instead of just sitting at the sidelines with sneering remarks.

The game was hijacked by the AI/PBEM people long before Steve got involved. What kills me is the drastic change(by omission) of gameplay PBEM would involve. You may as well be playing TOAW. Which BTW was also taken over by Matrix where it has uncannily been taken over by the 'small scenario' people. Fat chance getting a WiF-like scenario out of that now.So far, it's Matrix: my 40 bucks, me: none of my desired improvement for TOAW and this seemingly endless and unnecessary delay for WiF. To borrow from a skit by Garrett Morriss: 'Matrix have been very very bad to me.' Matrix is in my doghouse. The apparent reply so far from Matrix has been unfit to post. Steve has been doing a great job and I have complete confidence in his ability and integrity. It's his mission I'm not happy with. It's not that the AI is a bad idea, but like with TOAW, I'm being forced to wait a long time and eventually pay for precisly the kinds of things I don't need in order to get what is not so difficult to achieve much sooner(like already). I'd have to say that right now, I don't like Matrix games though I'm open for dialogue. If someone wants to take a shot at me, go ahead.