Matrix Games Forums

Kill it.

Nicklas :"I think that there are much more urgent things for you to get cracking on than this issue"

"get cracking on" ? You sound like an Aussie! My dad to be exact. The opposite of getting cracking is "dragging the chain".

We won a gold medal in the Men's moguls the other day BTW (even if the guy was born in Canada). Not bad for our sun-drenched land (apart from the mountainous bits with the ski-fields all over them).

We've won three in total; two at the last games. The first was by the very foxy Alissa Camplin in the Aerials. The second (and by far the best IMHO because of how it happened) was when everybody else fell over and Steven Bradbury won the 1000 metres short track speed skating. I had had a few "strong lemonades" at the time and I fell off my chair laughing. It was a classically Australian way to win something.

Cheers, Neilster

Only one picture per post [:@]. Here's Stephen Bradbury.

Cheers, Neilster

ORIGINAL: Yohan

So far the feedback is 3-0. I think every game is different and the units you draw will effect your setup. You also do not want people to load and save, load and save in order to get all the white INF and ARM for example and then be able to keep thta perfect setup forever so it must be random as you suggested. Ergo, almost every time you will need to make adjustments.

In CWIF, saving setups was very helpful in solitaire play, but in MWIF, there will be an AI.

the key benefit that saved setups delivered in CWIF was to reduce the amount of button-pushing required before counter-pushing can begin. Steve has already indicated that he plans to address that issue with an improved setup dialog & silent scrapping.

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

Saving and Restoring Setup Positions
(as of February 16, 2006)

How do you feel about this? I think that it requires me to code in a lot of assumptions and make decisions that otherwise would be made by the player. Some of which are almost certain to be made ‘incorrectly’ in the eyes of some players. I do not see a clean solution for this, only messy ones.

I also feel that part of the reason the option of saving and restoring setups was included in CWIF was because the setup process was poorly designed and required a lot of opening and closing of forms and windows, clicking on units multiple times to select them, assign them pilots, and place them on the map.

The redesigned interface is much smoother and setting up a game goes much faster. When it does take time, it is because the player wants to position units carefully - building those 3 stacks of 10 strength points each, swapping in the Siberians for the weakest infantry divisions, breaking down certain units, positioning anti-aircraft units with HQs, and the myriad of other little decisions that make playing WIF so interesting.

I am still willing to write the code for this, I just would like to know that it will be a benefit and not so annoying that it is never used. At this time, I do not see how to do that. There are too many odd bits.

And your opinion and suggestions are?

If you haven't got the message yet, skip it!

A lot of the fun of playing is trying new things. I doubt I'd ever use the functionality.

Either way sounds good to me. I can see the somewhat randomness would be nice for solo, but that's about it. Time spent on this will detract from time spent on more important things, I think.....

The only reason I might use a presaved setup plan would be for the chore of setting up the convoy chains for the CW.

I vote to "skip it", Steve, as far as allowing a player to save setup templates, for all the reasons you listed. (And don't forget those territorials! Kenya this game, Rhodesia the next...)

If the regular save game feature is available during the setup phase, (as I play solo mostly), that is good enough for me if I need to load up and play "right now, mister!".

Ok.

Saving setup locations has now been placed in MWIF Product 2 - unless the beta testers voice a strong desire for the functionality.

Thanks to all for the reassurance.

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

... MWIF Product 2 ...

*** SWOOON ***

I just want to be sure when you are saying Saving and Restoring Setup Positions you don't mean the Save Sceanario function.

Which in CWiF allowed you to save possiable setups for secanarios to reduce the time it took to set up the game.

I had Saved Sceanarios for the German invasion of Poland, Russian invasion of Bessarabia, Russian invasion of Persia, Itialian set up, and etc.

ORIGINAL: Mziln

I just want to be sure when you are saying Saving and Restoring Setup Positions you don't mean the Save Sceanario function.

Which in CWiF allowed you to save possiable setups for secanarios to reduce the time it took to set up the game.

I had Saved Sceanarios for the German invasion of Poland, Russian invasion of Bessarabia, Russian invasion of Persia, Itialian set up, and etc.

What I am refering to as saved setup locations is most likely what you are calling here Save Scenario.

Internal to the program code, it is the setup locations for the units that are being saved.

If you want to save a game position, that is always possible. Or at least almost always possible - there are some situations where saving a game isn't permitted. For example, in the middle of combat resolution. You can save the game after setting up one country and before setting up the next. In fact, if automatic save has been turned on, that happens without any input from the player.

Saved games are saved in a file for the scenario, so all the Global War saved games go in the subdirectory with that name.

What I have added, that CWIF intermixed with the setup locations, is a separate capability to save scrap lists. You can save and load lists of units to scrap at the start of a scenario. These are saved by scenario and also by major power. There is a separate sub-subdirectory for each major power within the subdirectory for each scenario (e.g., Saved Games/Barbarossa/Germany). Since the scrap list choices are not random, that decision can be made once and used every time thereafter.

When playing CWIF, you could restore a combined "saved setup locations/scrap list" for each major power for each scenario. Indeed, default ones were provided with the game. How it handled the air reserve units, Siberians, and broken down corps is very difficult to figure out from reading the code. I could elaborate on that last sentence for another 3 pages.

My solution to the difficulties in setting up a MWIF scenario is to
(1) provide a ton of detail when scrapping units.
(2) make saving and loading scrap lists separate from setup locations and the air reserves.
(3) simplify choosng air units (e.g., 4 out of 8 fighters for the USSR in Barbarossa).
(4) streamline the process of placing units on the map from the setup panel/form.
(5) eliminate saving setup locations; requiring the player to save the game (and selected units) instead.

Here is a screen shot of the MWIF scrap form. It is for Barbarossa and I have clicked on Fighters only. There are 4 eligible for scrapping, 14 others in the force pool, and 13 new ones that will enter the force pool next year (1942). At the present there are no fighters on the map, in production, or in the air reserve. Later in the game there will be units listed in those catgories and that information will help you to decide whether to destroy a fighter that just got shot down, or to return it to the force pool.

Note that you can click on "Save Current List" or "Load Saved List". The latter will still let you modify your choices - this screen only closes when you click on "OK (Done)".

This setup table looks very good and indeed includes data that CWiF could not provide.

It gives a nice clean overview for the player to make his decisions.

Lars

Here is what the new MWIF setup form looks like.

I have moved one of the 8 fighters into the reserve pool by first selecting it and then clicking on the Res button (2 mouse clicks).

I selected a second fighter and placed it on the map (3 mouse clicks); the form does not disappear, but remains "on top" and visible.

I selected two more fighters (1 mouse click each), and chose one of them for placement on the map; it is now "In Stack" (1 click) and ready to be placed on the map with a single mouse click - just select the hex.

You can undo a selection by holding down the control key while left clicking on a selected unit. That would change the numbers underneath the fighters from "1 out of 4" to "2 out of 5". You can get the unit I placed in reserve back by doing a control click on the Res button - that brings back all the air units from the reserve pool and the numbers would then be 2 out of 6.

I have selected only the "artillery units" for the land portion of the display. A single mouse click will change their status to "In Stack" and a second mouse click on a hex will place them on the map.

Note that the air unit already on the map has a green outline. That indicates it can be repositioned. All the units that are placed on the map can be repositioned whenever you want. You do not have to wait for the setup form to be empty of units.

Once all the units have been transferred from the setup form to the map, the setup panel disappears and the player can reposition the units - yet again. You can replace INF corps with Siberians and break down corps into divisions - just as it was done in CWIF.

The only thing I haven't implemented is the return of units that are placed on the map to the setup form. You might want to do that with the air units so you can throw them into the air reserve.

I also want to provide a button for "Start all over - I have screwed this up badly". Most of the code to support that feature is in place.

My point here is that setting up units is no longer painful - as it was in CWIF. Indeed, I have tried my best to make it a pleasure to set up your units at the start of a scenario. You can position the HQ's first and then assign them each an anti-aircraft gun. You can pick out the garrisons for holding frontline cities. You can assemble overrun stacks with armor, mech, and your best division. Everything is done with single left mouse clicks and control left mouse clicks 'undo' the selection.

Is there going to be an option to take a pre-defined setup & scrappig of units for newbies? i.e. we can just get on with the game rather than setting up all the units first.

ORIGINAL: ieamlot

Is there going to be an option to take a pre-defined setup & scrappig of units for newbies? i.e. we can just get on with the game rather than setting up all the units first.

The scrap screen includes a "Load Defaults" button. Click on that and then click on "OK Done" and scrapping units is complete. There is also the option "Scrap Units". If that is NOT selected, then scrapping units is handled automatically, without input from the player, throughout the entire game.

Your phrase "get on with the game" without "setting up the units first" will strike some players as strange. I can see providing a saved game that starts at the point in the sequence of play just as the first player decides on his Action (e.g., Land, Naval, Combined). You will have a static set of units (always the same ones) and several decisions will have already been made on the player's behalf. But starting the game there is not a problem.

After the first 2 times you play the game from this saved game position, I suspect you will want to set up your own units. The decisions that were made on your behalf will be aggravating because you will find something 'wrong' with them.

Nonetheless, givng a new player the ability to jump right into the thick of the movement/combat is a good idea. Thanks for suggesting it. I will be sure to provide it.

Thank you, it felt quite daunting to set up the vast amount of counters and decide on which units to scrap without nowing what i am scrapping and if they would be useful during the game. I am sure as a fairly experienced wargamer, computer and table top, that i and others in my position will feel happier going to sleep at night knowing that these decisions will be made for me to start with.

My point here is that setting up units is no longer painful - as it was in CWIF. Indeed, I have tried my best to make it a pleasure to set up your units at the start of a scenario. You can position the HQ's first and then assign them each an anti-aircraft gun. You can pick out the garrisons for holding frontline cities. You can assemble overrun stacks with armor, mech, and your best division. Everything is done with single left mouse clicks and control left mouse clicks 'undo' the selection.

Seems good [:D]. Thanks for sharing.

Will there be some "shading / lightening" of the map colors for better showing the possible hexes for setup ?
Same for movement, will there be some "shading / lightening" of the possible hexes for movement ?

Thanks

ORIGINAL: Froonp
Will there be some "shading / lightening" of the map colors for better showing the possible hexes for setup ?
Same for movement, will there be some "shading / lightening" of the possible hexes for movement ?

Thanks

On the wish list for MWIF product 1. I need to get the rest of the map and unit depictions finalized first. I also want to make the movement of naval units into sea boxes a reality.

In other words, I want to have a solid understanding what the map will look like before shading it, ... before shading it. I also want to understand what the placement/movement possibilities are for all unit types: land, naval, and air. That will let me understand what needs to be shaded. One of the thoughts I had on this was to show how many units can go in a hex - especially useful for air units.

One of the thoughts I had on this was to show how many units can go in a hex - especially useful for air units.

Yes, very good idea !

ORIGINAL: Froonp

One of the thoughts I had on this was to show how many units can go in a hex - especially useful for air units.

Yes, very good idea !

I hope that will be a toggle Steve? Don't want the map looking too cluttered.

ORIGINAL: Yohan

ORIGINAL: Froonp

One of the thoughts I had on this was to show how many units can go in a hex - especially useful for air units.

Yes, very good idea !

I hope that will be a toggle Steve? Don't want the map looking too cluttered.

All the overlays (e.g., flags, weather) are controlled by toggle switches.

Right now shading the map to indicate legal hexes is all in the vague idea stage. I try not to form any clear images until I have gathered as many possibilities as I can. Then I like to list advantages and disadvantages for each possbility. Shorten the list, see what others think, narrow the choice down to 2 or 3, flesh them out some more, make a final decision on design. See how the design turns out.

As I said earlier, there are some missing pieces of the puzzle I want to have defined before starting on designing this.