Matrix Games Forums

Posted: **Mon Jun 06, 2011 7:17 am**

ORIGINAL: michaelbaldur

ORIGINAL: Red Prince

first of: in 39 Italy can only use a few divisions to invade with ..

secondly: Italy simple don´t have production to start it´s marine corps or division, before it gets lend lease from Germany .. so first after they are active ...

they only have 2 BP in 39 ... if they save oil .as they should

With Unlimited Breakdown they can invade with up to 5 or 6 divisions.

still you will need to be active ... there is no way to make invasions with 6 divisions in a combined ..

you simply don´t have enough impulses to get the fleet out .. 1 ship at a time ..

No, the best you could do would be 4 on 2 TRS . . . In my test game I "cheated" by having Italy DOW China to get surprise on both CW and France. Wouldn't recommend that for the AI.

Posted: **Mon Jun 06, 2011 3:30 pm**

ORIGINAL: Red Prince
No, the best you could do would be 4 on 2 TRS . . . In my test game I "cheated" by having Italy DOW China to get surprise on both CW and France. Wouldn't recommend that for the AI.

Question. How, if at all, did you tweak the enormous U.S. entry for such an action?

Posted: **Mon Jun 06, 2011 3:35 pm**

ORIGINAL: Ur_Vile_WEdge

ORIGINAL: Red Prince
No, the best you could do would be 4 on 2 TRS . . . In my test game I "cheated" by having Italy DOW China to get surprise on both CW and France. Wouldn't recommend that for the AI.

Question. How, if at all, did you tweak the enormous U.S. entry for such an action?

you can choose dice roll when you test ... so we can basic do everything ... as we should

Posted: **Mon Jun 06, 2011 6:07 pm**

ORIGINAL: Red Prince

In my test game I "cheated" by having Italy DOW China to get surprise on both CW and France. Wouldn't recommend that for the AI.

You mean you DoW'd China so as not to be restricted to only Combined actions? You'd have to DoW both CW and France to get Surprise effects on those two.

Posted: **Mon Jun 06, 2011 6:09 pm**

We didn't use AMPH in the game in those days (it was an extension I think that came later on), so we invaded with INF on TRS. Together with SB against a notional unit, then a good result is possible to get on Gibraltar, if the CW didn't garrison it in SO 1939. Even if I loose one INF and get disrupted in Gibraltar, it is not easy to throw me out of there for the CW in SO 1939. Now that Malta is a major port, he also has to garrison it (I would probably go for Malta first, since with some land based air it is possible to get even better odds there if it isn't garrisoned. The way I look at it is, if the Allies make a mistake during set up or the first turn, I sure am going to make them pay for it. US entry is of course something which isn't really nice in this case for the Axis, however the opportunity is simply to important to pass on. The same goes by a nice DoW on France if he is really, really careless. It doesn't happen often though. Normal Allied play is to garrison Gibraltar, Marseilles, the French-Italian border and Egypt to prevent any early Italian DoW (I would also garrison Malta, now it is a Major Port). However, if the CW thinks to hurry US entry, he can of course gamble on this...
Concerning the Italian MAR as my first Italian build: I don't build anything the first turn and save my BP for the next turn and than it goes on the spiral (even if it costs me a little oil in ND 1939).

Posted: **Mon Jun 06, 2011 6:50 pm**

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

ORIGINAL: Red Prince

In my test game I "cheated" by having Italy DOW China to get surprise on both CW and France. Wouldn't recommend that for the AI.
You mean you DoW'd China so as not to be restricted to only Combined actions? You'd have to DoW both CW and France to get Surprise effects on those two.

Correct. I DoW'd China so I could get my full fleet out to sea an impulse before I DoW'd both CW and France.

Posted: **Mon Jun 06, 2011 7:42 pm**

ORIGINAL: Red Prince

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

ORIGINAL: Red Prince

In my test game I "cheated" by having Italy DOW China to get surprise on both CW and France. Wouldn't recommend that for the AI.
You mean you DoW'd China so as not to be restricted to only Combined actions? You'd have to DoW both CW and France to get Surprise effects on those two.
Correct. I DoW'd China so I could get my full fleet out to sea an impulse before I DoW'd both CW and France.

Next time I suggest CW and France DOW Italy and sink the Italian fleet. [;)]

Posted: **Tue Jun 07, 2011 2:31 pm**

We didn't use AMPH in the game in those days (it was an extension I think that came later on), so we invaded with INF on TRS

Centuur brings up a point which the AI will need to take into consideration (not just Italy's AI, of course). Playing with AMPH is an optional rule.

Any game which does not include AMPH vastly improves invasion capabilities of all powers.

Posted: **Tue Jun 07, 2011 3:20 pm**

ORIGINAL: composer99

We didn't use AMPH in the game in those days (it was an extension I think that came later on), so we invaded with INF on TRS

Centuur brings up a point which the AI will need to take into consideration (not just Italy's AI, of course). Playing with AMPH is an optional rule.

Any game which does not include AMPH vastly improves invasion capabilities of all powers.

Likewise with Unlimited Breakdown.

Posted: **Fri Jun 24, 2011 4:10 am**

Malta is so important I send the London MIL there ASAP as the CW, eventually backed by a Territorial, plus the gun that I probably set up there. Good luck getting ashore Benito!

Sometimes I send the 7-3 UK INF instead...

Posted: **Sat Jun 25, 2011 7:05 pm**

Ahh... Now we are talking. Well this means there are possibilities elsewhere... The CW can't defend everything...

Posted: **Tue Jul 05, 2011 6:01 pm**

The Aligning Yugoslavia Option.

I have never tried this in a game yet, but would like to. I Have a few questions, though, for those that have.

I. It looks like '40 is the best year to try to take Greece, correct, after USSR has claimed Bessarabia?
II. Assuming not at war yet, do you usually DoW on the CW before Greece so you can get German support ie Para's etc. or do you DoW on both CW a Greece the same impulse?
III. Assuming Greece goes well...well this is where I am having trouble with this option.
i. If Germany is planning Barb in 41 he is going to have to give up Bessarabia, by not DoW on Yugo before the USSR makes the claim, which I'm sure he can be convinced is best[;)]. But this means that for approx. 4 turns you have to keep the CW from aligning Yugo. With the CW not having much else to worry about from Germany, this seems like a real gamble. For those that have aligned Yugo, is it really worth the risk?
ii. If Germany is going Sealion or Med strategy it makes things easier as far as Italy is concerned. Does Germany then DoW on Rumania asap or do you wait till '42 when germany will probably DoW on USSR?

Hope you guys can help me better understand this play.

In keeping with this thread, depending on the replies, I would think that this would be a very low percentage strategy for the AI.

Posted: **Tue Jul 05, 2011 6:17 pm**

ORIGINAL: gridley

The Aligning Yugoslavia Option.

I have never tried this in a game yet, but would like to. I Have a few questions, though, for those that have.

I. It looks like '40 is the best year to try this, correct, after USSR has claimed Bessarabia?
II. Assuming not at war yet, do you usually DoW on the CW before Greece so you can get German support ie Para's etc. or do you DoW on both CW a Greece the same impulse?
III. Assuming Greece goes well...well this is where I am having trouble with this option.
i. If Germany is planning Barb in 41 he is going to have to give up Bessarabia, by not DoW on Yugo before the USSR makes the claim, which I'm sure he can be convinced is best[;)]. But this means that for approx. 4 turns you have to keep the CW from aligning Yugo. With the CW not having much else to worry about from Germany, this seems like a real gamble. For those that have aligned Yugo, is it really worth the risk?
ii. If Germany is going Sealion or Med strategy it makes things easier as far as Italy is concerned. Does Germany then DoW on Rumania asap or do you wait till '42 when germany will probably DoW on USSR?

Hope you guys can help me better understand this play.

In keeping with this thread, depending on the replies, I would think that this would be a very low percentage strategy for the AI.

Except for the fact that US Entry chits are more likely to be of higher value (which may be enough to justify waiting), there's really no reason why Italy can't DOW Greece in S/O'39. If I intended to do that, I'd get Germany to DOW at the same time, giving them the chance to align Bulgaria. Bulgaria has 2 units that can both move into Greece. If Italy has set up solid forces in Albania, there should be a good chance of taking Greece in a single turn. The CW would have to really strip away other more important areas to try to grab Yugoslavia by supporting Greece this early.

If these 3 things ALL trigger US chit draws, it's bad -- but if you want Yugoslavia for Italy, it's a chance you might want to take. I've beta-tested this scenario several times. It's certainly possible to do.

As for timing, I'm less certain. It would be nice to have Yugoslavia early, for the RP there, but you do have to wait on Germany aligning Rumania. They don't have to do that as soon as they DOW the USSR, and probably shouldn't until they can get some backup troops down there. I guess the key idea is to have Yugoslavia avilable for the large numbers of troops they have, plus the backup home nation for Italy. That just means the Italians have to be able to align it before the Allies try to make a landing in Italy.
-----
Edit: I have very little practical experience with WiF as a board game, so my thoughts may be quite skewed due to some of the things I do in solitaire mode beta-testing.

Posted: **Tue Jul 05, 2011 6:43 pm**

ORIGINAL: Red Prince

ORIGINAL: gridley

The Aligning Yugoslavia Option.

I have never tried this in a game yet, but would like to. I Have a few questions, though, for those that have.

I. It looks like '40 is the best year to try this, correct, after USSR has claimed Bessarabia?
II. Assuming not at war yet, do you usually DoW on the CW before Greece so you can get German support ie Para's etc. or do you DoW on both CW a Greece the same impulse?
III. Assuming Greece goes well...well this is where I am having trouble with this option.
i. If Germany is planning Barb in 41 he is going to have to give up Bessarabia, by not DoW on Yugo before the USSR makes the claim, which I'm sure he can be convinced is best[;)]. But this means that for approx. 4 turns you have to keep the CW from aligning Yugo. With the CW not having much else to worry about from Germany, this seems like a real gamble. For those that have aligned Yugo, is it really worth the risk?
ii. If Germany is going Sealion or Med strategy it makes things easier as far as Italy is concerned. Does Germany then DoW on Rumania asap or do you wait till '42 when germany will probably DoW on USSR?

Hope you guys can help me better understand this play.

In keeping with this thread, depending on the replies, I would think that this would be a very low percentage strategy for the AI.
Except for the fact that US Entry chits are more likely to be of higher value (which may be enough to justify waiting), there's really no reason why Italy can't DOW Greece in S/O'39. If I intended to do that, I'd get Germany to DOW at the same time, giving them the chance to align Bulgaria. Bulgaria has 2 units that can both move into Greece. If Italy has set up solid forces in Albania, there should be a good chance of taking Greece in a single turn. The CW would have to really strip away other more important areas to try to grab Yugoslavia by supporting Greece this early.

If these 3 things ALL trigger US chit draws, it's bad -- but if you want Yugoslavia for Italy, it's a chance you might want to take. I've beta-tested this scenario several times. It's certainly possible to do.

As for timing, I'm less certain. It would be nice to have Yugoslavia early, for the RP there, but you do have to wait on Germany aligning Rumania. They don't have to do that as soon as they DOW the USSR, and probably shouldn't until they can get some backup troops down there. I guess the key idea is to have Yugoslavia avilable for the large numbers of troops they have, plus the backup home nation for Italy. That just means the Italians have to be able to align it before the Allies try to make a landing in Italy.
-----
Edit: I have very little practical experience with WiF as a board game, so my thoughts may be quite skewed due to some of the things I do in solitaire mode beta-testing.

there is no need to DOW CW as Italy ..

when Italy Dow Greece ..it is aligned to a major that Germany is at war with ... and Germany is at war with CW and all it´s aligned minor ...

so if Germany Dow Greece (at the same time as Italy) they get a surprise impulse ..

if Germany don´t DOW Greece. they are automatic at war with them (without a surprise)

Posted: **Tue Jul 05, 2011 6:53 pm**

ORIGINAL: michaelbaldur

there is no need to DOW CW as Italy ..

when Italy Dow Greece ..it is aligned to a major that Germany is at war with ... and Germany is at war with CW and all it´s aligned minor ...

so if Germany Dow Greece (at the same time as Italy) they get a surprise impulse ..

if Germany don´t DOW Greece. they are automatic at war with them (without a surprise)

Just beware when there is a early USSR - Japan war. In that case Greece can be aligned to USSR.

Posted: **Tue Jul 05, 2011 7:16 pm**

ORIGINAL: Orm

ORIGINAL: michaelbaldur

there is no need to DOW CW as Italy ..

when Italy Dow Greece ..it is aligned to a major that Germany is at war with ... and Germany is at war with CW and all it´s aligned minor ...

so if Germany Dow Greece (at the same time as Italy) they get a surprise impulse ..

if Germany don´t DOW Greece. they are automatic at war with them (without a surprise)
Just beware when there is a early USSR - Japan war. In that case Greece can be aligned to USSR.

or Usa ,, if Japan have been a very bad boy ..

there is always the surrender China gambit...[:D]

Posted: **Tue Jul 05, 2011 9:20 pm**

ORIGINAL: Orm

ORIGINAL: michaelbaldur

there is no need to DOW CW as Italy ..

when Italy Dow Greece ..it is aligned to a major that Germany is at war with ... and Germany is at war with CW and all it´s aligned minor ...

so if Germany Dow Greece (at the same time as Italy) they get a surprise impulse ..

if Germany don´t DOW Greece. they are automatic at war with them (without a surprise)
Just beware when there is a early USSR - Japan war. In that case Greece can be aligned to USSR.

That may be unpleasant, but wouldn't the USSR find it impossible to "support" Greece? They can't get any TRS through from the Black Sea if Istanbul is not Allied controlled, right?

Posted: **Wed Jul 06, 2011 10:02 am**

ORIGINAL: Red Prince

ORIGINAL: Orm

ORIGINAL: michaelbaldur

there is no need to DOW CW as Italy ..

when Italy Dow Greece ..it is aligned to a major that Germany is at war with ... and Germany is at war with CW and all it´s aligned minor ...

so if Germany Dow Greece (at the same time as Italy) they get a surprise impulse ..

if Germany don´t DOW Greece. they are automatic at war with them (without a surprise)
Just beware when there is a early USSR - Japan war. In that case Greece can be aligned to USSR.
That may be unpleasant, but wouldn't the USSR find it impossible to "support" Greece? They can't get any TRS through from the Black Sea if Istanbul is not Allied controlled, right?

ORIGINAL: WIFFE-RAW-7.0
11.4.4 Naval movement restrictions
3. You can’t move naval units between the Eastern Mediterranean and the Black Sea (even via Panderma) unless Istanbul is friendly controlled.

ORIGINAL: Orm

ORIGINAL: michaelbaldur

there is no need to DOW CW as Italy ..

when Italy Dow Greece ..it is aligned to a major that Germany is at war with ... and Germany is at war with CW and all it´s aligned minor ...

so if Germany Dow Greece (at the same time as Italy) they get a surprise impulse ..

if Germany don´t DOW Greece. they are automatic at war with them (without a surprise)
Just beware when there is a early USSR - Japan war. In that case Greece can be aligned to USSR.

Where does it say, “If there is a early USSR - Japan war then Greece can be aligned to USSR”?

ORIGINAL: WIFFE-RAW-7.0
19.6 Soviet border rectification
19.6.1 Finland
19.6.2 Rumania

19.8 Allied minor countries
Brazil - USA
Bulgaria - The Soviet border rectification rule (see 19.6) explains when the USSR can declare Bulgaria aligned with it.
Central America – USA
Mexico – USA
Mongolia - Mongolia is a minor country aligned with the USSR in every scenario.
Yugoslavia – Commonwealth

19.9 Netherlands East Indies

19.11 French African minors

19.12 The Ukraine (option 62)

Posted: **Wed Jul 06, 2011 10:06 am**

Where does it say, “If there is a early USSR - Japan war then Greece can be aligned to USSR”?

I'm pretty sure that what Michael meant was: If the USSR is active when the Axis makes a DOW on Greece, then the USSR can take control of Greece.

Posted: **Wed Jul 06, 2011 10:20 am**

The USSR doesn’t need a war for that. It can be an neutral major power.

ORIGINAL: WIFFE-RAW-7.0
9.7 Controlling new minors
You now allocate control of minor countries declared war on this step, to a major power on the other side (see 19.2 Entering the war), in order of declaration. The minor country is at war with everyone its controlling major power is at war with, as well as the major powers that declared war on it.

Whoever takes control of them in or sets up its forces immediately (see 19.4 Minor country units).

19.3 Who can enter the minor
It is aligned with a neutral major power on your side and the unit entering is one of that major power’s unit.

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