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RE: The truth about supply
Posted: Fri Jan 06, 2006 5:04 pm
by mogami
ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker
ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag
Again, this is coming down to a bash Ron or any other critic, regardless if they have good intentions or not.
Not at all ... those who have played the game that long are saying overall this is not really an issue (unles you happen to be playing a "Sir Robin" type who gave up the SRA in record breaking time.
It's cause and effect ... quite simple ... it has nothing at all to do with YOU personally. You just seem to take everything personally [;)]
You have a theory ... you test it in practice to see that it is valid ... then you make recommendations based on results ...
You can't skip the test phase.
Your BB one is a perfect example ... sure, BB's can reload too quick early on due to the lack of specific port handling.
Theory: block BB ammo loading cause it's wrong.
Test: yep, there is a *short* term problem
Actual Results: While this is a short term problem, it is offset by the extra fuel burnt coupled with wear and tear on the BB's that take forever to repair and clog up your repair ports forever meaning other ships can't get the repairs they need.
Change required? No - so it goes to wish list item vs broken list
Ray, half the guys on this board think it's an issue.
Hi, Really 50 percent of those that post think it's an issue. What percentage of those who don't post are sitting there at home thinking "gads this is an issue" How are you in contact with all these people?
RE: The truth about supply
Posted: Fri Jan 06, 2006 5:05 pm
by Speedysteve
ORIGINAL: Mogami
Hi, Those old monster board game must have drove Ron crazy. All you had to do was trace a path to a map edge and you had whatever type supply you required where ever you needed it.
I bet "Campaign for North Africa" still ranks high for realism and playability. (God I loved that game but could never hold enough poeple together long enough to teach them the rules. I've never lived in a town where there were more then 2 or 3 wargamers in the first place.)
Really Ron's model will work great once we get TJ's real time online game with 20 payers per side up and running. I might change my mind and cough up the 5 per month.
Sarcasm personified [:D]
RE: The truth about supply
Posted: Fri Jan 06, 2006 5:05 pm
by Speedysteve
ORIGINAL: Mogami
How are you in contact with all these people?
You mean Ron's not all knowing and seeing? [X(]
RE: The truth about supply
Posted: Fri Jan 06, 2006 5:06 pm
by Nikademus
If you want it to be "irrefutable" then you must play stock. Thats what the majority of players use. You are after all, trying to prove tha the basic game design is flawed. Throw in the A2A if you want since the issue (in this thread at least) is about supply.
RE: The truth about supply
Posted: Fri Jan 06, 2006 5:07 pm
by Ron Saueracker
Post a well written poll if you must.
RE: The truth about supply
Posted: Fri Jan 06, 2006 5:07 pm
by Oznoyng
ORIGINAL: Skyros
Can we include a mod for the black market so if you get the wrong stuff delivered you can trade it for the items you really need[:D]
I have 3 cases of scotch and 4 cases of Toilet Paper can I have the 16 inch shell now.
LOL.
RE: The truth about supply
Posted: Fri Jan 06, 2006 5:07 pm
by Nikademus
ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker
No, means a simple code change which was recommended along with the mine/torp restrictions but not implemented may never be.
Only Mike Wood is qualified to classify something code wise as "simple"
RE: The truth about supply
Posted: Fri Jan 06, 2006 5:08 pm
by Nikademus
Yeah that and the early computer games such as Knights of the Desert or War in Russia (8-bit)
RE: The truth about supply
Posted: Fri Jan 06, 2006 5:09 pm
by mogami
Sarcasm personified
Hi, No sarcasm. TJ must realize by now the only way he is going to get what he is suggesting is to do it and show the rest of us how it is done.
MR FRag has already shown there are programmers and artists here to do the actual work all TJ has to do is write the design. Mr frag says it can all be done in under 3 months. Yet here we are.
I wonder. TJ will you let Matrix publish your game?
RE: The truth about supply
Posted: Fri Jan 06, 2006 5:11 pm
by Ron Saueracker
ORIGINAL: Nikademus
If you want it to be "irrefutable" then you must play stock. Thats what the majority of players use. You are after all, trying to prove tha the basic game design is flawed. Throw in the A2A if you want since the issue (in this thread at least) is about supply.
Why, CHS has altered roads and centres etc making it supply less abundant and easily moved? Gutting it further as stated earlier provides a much better starting point than stock. If we manage with all these cuts then something is wrong. By simply using the stock scenario I'm concerned that the proof will be too subjective...what is success judged on?
RE: The truth about supply
Posted: Fri Jan 06, 2006 5:11 pm
by Mr.Frag
ORIGINAL: moses
Original Mr. Frag.
Actual Results: While this is a short term problem, it is offset by the extra fuel burnt coupled with wear and tear on the BB's that take forever to repair and clog up your repair ports forever meaning other ships can't get the repairs they need.
Yes good. This type of thinking needs to be repeated because it is the type of thinking that has always gone into developing wargames since well before we had computers.
Unfortunatley some will now say " So you're admitting that fuel consumption and BB systems damage are screwed up as well."
I understand, thats where people like you are of great value ... you don't immediately jump down the "it's broken path" without at least reasoning it out for the long term effect. [;)]
This game is not perfect, nothing really is, but it does put you in the drivers seat for something pretty epic.
There are millions of things that could have been done differently, but the overall effect at the end of the day is pretty much the same ... you have the task of managing a nightmare ... too much information and not enough information at the very same time. Even if it's off by as much as 50% ... it still achieves the end result ... making you feel like you are in over your head.
RE: The truth about supply
Posted: Fri Jan 06, 2006 5:12 pm
by moses
Sarcasm personified
I don't think its sarcasm. He's absolutly correct.
Not many games have tried to model supply to the level of WITP. It is the increased level of detail that allows people to pick at it so much.
But once most agree that abstraction of supply is good, can we at some point maybe get to AB's suggestion which is quite good I think and would improve things.
RE: The truth about supply
Posted: Fri Jan 06, 2006 5:12 pm
by Ron Saueracker
ORIGINAL: Nikademus
ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker
No, means a simple code change which was recommended along with the mine/torp restrictions but not implemented may never be.
Only Mike Wood is qualified to classify something code wise as "simple"
Even with code that already exists in the game? I beg to differ.
RE: The truth about supply
Posted: Fri Jan 06, 2006 5:14 pm
by Speedysteve
ORIGINAL: moses
Sarcasm personified
I don't think its sarcasm. He's absolutly correct.
Not many games have tried to model supply to the level of WITP. It is the increased level of detail that allows people to pick at it so much.
But once most agree that abstraction of supply is good, can we at some point maybe get to AB's suggestion which is quite good I think and would improve things.
May well be but could also be construed as sarcasm. If Mog says it wasn't then it wasn't intended.
RE: The truth about supply
Posted: Fri Jan 06, 2006 5:18 pm
by mogami
Hi, No really I'm serious. Tankerace had an idea for a mod and there is "WPO".
Assemble a team and have Ron and TJ write the design. Put Mr Frag in charge of programmers and get Cobraaus or Rougeusmc for art and Andrew for the map and you'll have your dream. We'll all quit playing WITP because the new game will be so much better and Matrix will have everyone who plays WITP now buying a new title. (and Ron and TJ will grow rich and be able to say "see we told you so" over and over)
Since the design will be so perfect and OOB's accurate how much testing or patching will it need? none.
I bet not one negative post or review will ever be written.
Does it really matter in the long run if Japanese turn 1 requires 6 months to enter and every turn requires 2 weeks? No not if the realism is there. I'm in favor of going whole hog and making the game cover the entire world from 1929 to 1948.
Combat report May 3rd 1940
German agents blow up the AC Delco plant in Ft Wayne. Production of sparkplugs reduced by 20,000 per month
RE: The truth about supply
Posted: Fri Jan 06, 2006 5:18 pm
by Nikademus
ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker
Why, CHS has altered roads and centres etc making it supply less abundant and easily moved? Gutting it further as stated earlier provides a much better starting point than stock. If we manage with all these cuts then something is wrong. By simply using the stock scenario I'm concerned that the proof will be too subjective...what is success judged on?
Because only a small majority play CHS. Your complaints are aimed at WitP the main game. You want a UNIVERSAL CHANGE that will impact all mods as well as stock. Thus you must use the stock as the control.
Success? duh.....does that have to be defined after 10 pages? Show us that the supply is too much.....that you don't have to bother shipping it in in substantial quantities to allow invasions to succeed.
RE: The truth about supply
Posted: Fri Jan 06, 2006 5:19 pm
by Nikademus
ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker
Even with code that already exists in the game? I beg to differ.
You can beg all you want. Unless your a programmer with access to the code, your in no position to label
anything as "simple"
RE: The truth about supply
Posted: Fri Jan 06, 2006 5:21 pm
by Nikademus
ORIGINAL: moses
Not many games have tried to model supply to the level of WITP. It is the increased level of detail that allows people to pick at it so much.
But once most agree that abstraction of supply is good, can we at some point maybe get to AB's suggestion which is quite good I think and would improve things.
A voice of reason.
RE: The truth about supply
Posted: Fri Jan 06, 2006 5:27 pm
by Tristanjohn
ORIGINAL: moses
Original Mr. Frag.
Actual Results: While this is a short term problem, it is offset by the extra fuel burnt coupled with wear and tear on the BB's that take forever to repair and clog up your repair ports forever meaning other ships can't get the repairs they need.
Yes good. This type of thinking needs to be repeated because it is the type of thinking that has always gone into developing wargames since well before we had computers.
Unfortunatley some will now say " So you're admitting that fuel consumption and BB systems damage are screwed up as well."
Well . . isn't he? [8|]
RE: The truth about supply
Posted: Fri Jan 06, 2006 5:28 pm
by moses
Original: Mr Frag:
I understand, thats where people like you are of great value...
Original: Nikademus
A voice of reason
Now if Mogami says something nice TJ will have a fit. I can just hear him screaming 'fanboy' into the monitor.