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ORIGINAL: Orm

ORIGINAL: Zorch

ORIGINAL: Orm



Sounds fascinating. Might there be a book that summarize the period and area in a manner that an amateur could understand?

No - that's why they call it the Dark Ages, because it was un-illuminated by history. [:)]

That is why they wrongly call it the Dark Ages. The period has never been un-illuminated by history, and lately it is becoming more and more illuminated with each year that passes by. At least in my uneducated and humble opinion.

True.

And Dark Eges?
"The First Golden Century",
https://geschiedenis-winkel.nl/de-eerst ... -6370.html
about the 8th and 9th century trade network connecting all of the North Sea borders and the Baltic with the Roman industrial heritage of the Frankish Kingdoms.

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

ORIGINAL: springel

Dozens of recent papers, historical and archaeological, on the Late Roman and Early Mediaeval history of the area of the Netherlands. The depopulation of the 4th century, the rise of the Frankish Kings in the South, the Frisian trade in the river area, the enforcement of Christianity, the contacts with the Danes, Lotharingia in between the proto-French and proto-German Empires.

A lot of stuff happened, but I don't know any wargames that depict that theatre. Crusader Kings fails, because its Carolingian start is just a back-projection of a much later feudal situation that has nothing in common with older power structures.

Interesting stuff, springel. As my avatar suggests, I'm a big fan of the implementation of the effects of malaria on the outcome of the Pacific War. How would you propose a game reflects the battlefield effects of the black death? [X(]

I don't know if a plague was to blame for the population hiatus in large parts of the Netherlands. There is no evidence for that, and Justinianus' plague seems to have been less catastrophic than sometimes suggested.

From the 14th century plague it seems that it has intensified conflict, certainly relative to its diminished population. But its influence would be on the strategic and economic layer, rather than on the battlefield layer, I think.

On the operational level the battlefield may have influenced the (spread of new waves of the) plague more than the other way around.

In the field ordinary diseases like dysentery and typhoid had probably greater impact than the Black Death.

ORIGINAL: Orm

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

ORIGINAL: springel

Dozens of recent papers, historical and archaeological, on the Late Roman and Early Mediaeval history of the area of the Netherlands. The depopulation of the 4th century, the rise of the Frankish Kings in the South, the Frisian trade in the river area, the enforcement of Christianity, the contacts with the Danes, Lotharingia in between the proto-French and proto-German Empires.

A lot of stuff happened, but I don't know any wargames that depict that theatre. Crusader Kings fails, because its Carolingian start is just a back-projection of a much later feudal situation that has nothing in common with older power structures.

Interesting stuff, springel. As my avatar suggests, I'm a big fan of the implementation of the effects of malaria on the outcome of the Pacific War. How would you propose a game reflects the battlefield effects of the black death? [X(]

I am a bit confused. What has the Black Death to do with the "Late Roman and Early Mediaeval history of the area of the Netherlands"?

Please educate me, [:)]

Orm,

I don't intend to have this thread turned into another GD Q/A session/ diatribe / argument, like some other threads have become. My comments to springel weren't intended for your ears and do not / should not denote an interest in descending into a point/counterpoint 'gotcha' with you or anybody else not named springel.

I had always consider that the Middle Ages in European history were about a thousand years old, from circa 500-1500 or thereabouts. As the Black Death was recognized to start in Europe in 1347 and went along from there, I guess that this would be the LATE Medieval time period and not the EARLY Medieval time period. I am so very, very sorry for any misunderstanding.

The comment about the 'depopulation of the 4th century' in the Netherlands made me think that this could have been due to disease-as I know nothing about why an area of Europe was depopulated at the time. In hindsight, it's likely too early for Bubonic or Pneumonic Plague, I suppose, but could be another form of disease.

So, springel-why *were* the Netherlands depopulated in the 4th century?

But in the Early Middle Ages I read about a lot of Frankish expeditions into Italy that failed because of either an outbreak of disease in the army, or the death of the King himself by disease. From the 9th to the 13th century, it kept happening. Also, many Popes were very competent in the art of poison, but not just the Popes.

ORIGINAL: springel

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

ORIGINAL: springel

Dozens of recent papers, historical and archaeological, on the Late Roman and Early Mediaeval history of the area of the Netherlands. The depopulation of the 4th century, the rise of the Frankish Kings in the South, the Frisian trade in the river area, the enforcement of Christianity, the contacts with the Danes, Lotharingia in between the proto-French and proto-German Empires.

A lot of stuff happened, but I don't know any wargames that depict that theatre. Crusader Kings fails, because its Carolingian start is just a back-projection of a much later feudal situation that has nothing in common with older power structures.

Interesting stuff, springel. As my avatar suggests, I'm a big fan of the implementation of the effects of malaria on the outcome of the Pacific War. How would you propose a game reflects the battlefield effects of the black death? [X(]

I don't know if a plague was to blame for the population hiatus in large parts of the Netherlands. There is no evidence for that, and Justinianus' plague seems to have been less catastrophic than sometimes suggested.

From the 14th century plague it seems that it has intensified conflict, certainly relative to its diminished population. But its influence would be on the strategic and economic layer, rather than on the battlefield layer, I think.

On the operational level the battlefield may have influenced the (spread of new waves of the) plague more than the other way around.

In the field ordinary diseases like dysentery and typhoid had probably greater impact than the Black Death.

Thank you for your reply, springel.

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy
So, springel-why *were* the Netherlands depopulated in the 4th century?

Large parts of it, Yes.

The parts South of the River Rhine were abandoned in the late 3rd century by the Roman civil administration and the (Romanized) population followed into Gaul, South of Brussels.

The Northern coastal flood planes, that had become was densely populated in the 1st century, thriving on the economic activity in the Roman Empire to the South, were also almost completely abandoned at approximately the same time. From thousands of settlements, only a handful has continued. A couple of houses at each river estuary, that was all that remained until the late 4th century, when Angles resettled the area.

On the West coast similarly only a few houses in the dunes near streams were maintained.

Only on the sandy high grounds in the East, the former iron age population continued and became Saxon. Some decline in the population, but continuity.

The most probable explanation is that all those people migrated, some to Britannia, most to Northern Francia.

ORIGINAL: warspite1

.....So happy with this I've bought Malta Convoys 1940-1943 too to dive straight into once I'm done [:)]

warspite1

Four chapters in and the author has not even got to the convoys yet! He's certainly set the scene nicely.

I really like this author and the two books read so far, so shouldn't be surprised that this is another excellent work.

I read this one in high-school (the Italian translation), and now I was able to track a copy in the original language.



I knew Nevil Shute for "On the Beach" (I mean... who doesn't?). This book is quite different, but it manages to be charming without becoming tacky or sugary. The odyssey of the English people living in SE Asia after the Japanese occupation is told in a frank style, even if it avoids the most lurid parts. It is really a beautiful yarn.

ORIGINAL: warspite1

I may have to put Case White and Case Red on hold.... Ordered this today. Arctic Convoys almost done, then Malta Convoys and this puppy [:)]

warspite1

Couldn't wait!! So now its Malta Convoys on the train to and from work, and Six Victories in bed. It's slower this way (I can't get too much done before tiredness, in my frail dotage, takes over and the next thing I know I am wakened by the book smacking against my face) but when books are this good.....[:)]

Six Victories in bed, eh? Sounds a little vainglorious to me, but what does Mrs. Warspite1 think of that? [;)]

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

Six Victories in bed, eh? Sounds a little vainglorious to me, but what does Mrs. Warspite1 think of that? [;)]

Only 6 victories in bed? [&:]

Ludendorff's memoirs, Kindle version.

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

Six Victories in bed, eh? Sounds a little vainglorious to me, but what does Mrs. Warspite1 think of that? [;)]

warspite1

Well a man can dream can't he?......

ORIGINAL: Zorch

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

Six Victories in bed, eh? Sounds a little vainglorious to me, but what does Mrs. Warspite1 think of that? [;)]

Only 6 victories in bed? [&:]

warspite1

Not bad eh? That's one every six years......

A nice, unexpected, Christmas pressie [:)]

Churchill's Anchor - a biography of Admiral of the Fleet Sir Dudley Pound

The Terror by Dan Simmonds

The Terror is a good book. Oh yes, I remember. It is 766 pages long and you wish for more.

Chuck

Usually I read at least four books a month, mostly 19th / 20th cent. novels or just general stuff.
I am limited to only five borrowings per month via my Uni "visitor" card.
This year I plan to read at least 5 per month.

This month's selections:

reading: soldiers of the sun the rise and fall of the imperial japanese army

ORIGINAL: warspite1

ORIGINAL: warspite1

.....So happy with this I've bought Malta Convoys 1940-1943 too to dive straight into once I'm done [:)]

warspite1

Four chapters in and the author has not even got to the convoys yet! He's certainly set the scene nicely.

I really like this author and the two books read so far, so shouldn't be surprised that this is another excellent work.

warspite1

Didn't get much reading done over Christmas but now back in full swing. This is one gloriously beautiful book.