Matrix Games Forums

Agian I will just refer you back to the holes I punched up north. I have armor pushing into the rear...I really hope they spend their power on Kleist's flank...

You were also punching holes when the Soviets attacked Orel and retook Voronezh.

Attacking where your armoured forces are not, is probably one of the best Soviet strategies in the majority of wargames. If the AI could roll up your flank, you could push north all you want, but that doesn't change that you will have a hole in your flank that you need to plug.

If the AI can take the initiative from you in an area, even partially, it wins a strategic victory even if it loses the battle for the hexes it occupies.

Your lead elements are also not at Moscow yet and your Northern advance is quite slow (not to mention the situation around Rostov), so there's only a serious need for more men in the South. There's still some room for the AI to act.

Soviet strategy is all about death through a thousand cuts, the Axis have little choice but to try and K.O. the Soviets with a few good blows.

Your very correct...But Kleist's job is to keep Hoth's right busy, not go to Moscow. So lets see what happens. I just have to move some rear units and should be posting some turn 9 BAR's tonight. Wife is out of the house, thank god...lol...

(BAR) Well they want a fight in Tula...The pocket on my left won't die. I moved more fighters in the area hopeing the night drops slow. I will surround there troops in Tula, but th clock is ticking...

Is there a reason why you're refitting units next to the frontline, instead of 1 hex or more to the rear, or am I mixing up colours now and a blue outline doesn't indicate refitting?

Units don't need to pull back to refit.  Hexes are 10 miles so there is room for elements to rotate out of the line, refit, and move back up all within the same hex.

Yea!!  Happy to hear that you don't have to pull the units way out of line to refit them!  Finally!  One of my pet peeves is having to waste a turn pulling a unit back, a turn or more to refit, then moving them back again.  This game just keeps sounding better and better!

How's the Big Picture?

Is the overall change in the ratio of forces (over the past 2 months) to your liking?
Are you destroying enough of their experienced / elite troops to give you a realistic chance to shatter them before General Mud comes?

I understand what you say about this summer being the German's last chance to win the war.

Seems to me the Germans are running out of gas and haven't achieved any real decisive gains. At some point very soon they probably should stop and rest and refit. A lot of the infantry divisions on the latest screenshots are looking quite frail.

I disagree - on to Moscow or the game's up. And the North does seem to be crumbling (or it was last SS - maybe there are evn more reserves up there too.)

I love the fact that we have one of the best and most experienced testers pulling out all the stops and still the AI is building the roadblocks!

More pockets, with yet more prisoners - Hoth maybe needs to use one of his Corps to help free up the infantry armies so they can cover his East flank?

But dig in? Now? No chance.[:)]

Not now, but he's got maybe a month and a half of prime campaigning weather left. That's not much time and there's a lot of Red Army still out there and his divisions are not getting any stronger with time. Look at those screenshots. The landser are getting ground down, he's got numerous scarecrow 3-4 pt infantry divisions and even the panzers aren't looking that hot. It is not at all clear that the attrition is working to the German's favor here. He hasn't acheived anything like a clean breakthrough, and is having problems digesting the pockets he's got going.
 
If he managed to take Moscow before the rasputitsa, it is doubtful he'd hold it.
 
The climax of this campaign is rapidly approaching and the German commander is going to have to make a choice whether to drive his army to the ground or stand down and dig in.
 
The good news is that if he stops in time he'll be in a far far better position than the Germans were in the real life Fall Blau. He hasn't overextended himself.

Dig in? What the hell is that? Patton is only second to Christ Jesus in my mind. I am going to press this fight. I'm only half way through this. Hoth is looking to break the Oka, 2nd PzA can handle Tula...You can't sit on your hands in war...

You tell them PyleDriver!!!

Patton didn't originate the quote " Il nous faut de l'audace, encore de l'audace, toujours de l'audace! "; but he certainly lived by it! Most of the great battles were won not by sheer numbers, but by taking chances (with some heavy doses of luck and poor leadership on the losing side). There will be plenty of time to dig in, when the time is right, as long as you keep to a plan...and the one thing that is obvious here is that Jon has a plan (well that and a wife who thinks he spends too much time playing games[:)]). And he is maintaining his C&C. C&Cwins battles...and may win the war.

Enough pontificating...go get em!

(BAR) Well thanks for the comments guys, this game can draw alot of energy out you. Hell I wake up from dreams running to the computer, Bad huh...Kleist, I thought Soviet reserves had to pull off his southern flank, there was just to many fires elsewhere. I want him to bust into the rear, Im accross the Don now and the timing is right...

(AAR) Leningrad front. Well they hit me and regained a land bridge. Oh well, my fight is not there. I did have to get my C&C in order there it was messed up. Now 18th armys four corps commanders have the artillery and armor support they need. This is a fall back front, Moscow my friends, If I get it this whole house of cards breaks apart...

Is there some kind of surrender event related to Moscow? (And if there is, I personally think that would be rather silly and gamey.)
 
Because otherwise, I'm not seeing the point here, strategically. It doesn't do you any good at all to take the place (temporarily) and dash your army to pieces in the process. The Germans should be playing a longer and deeper game here and hoping (at best) for a draw by bleeding the Red Army to death and holding it deep in Russia. 
 
 
 

but that is wrong Flav, the Germans could only win with a knock out, a long war, works to the SU/Allied favor

Didn't Stalin already evacuate major parts of the government and functionals from Moscow in November 1941 and early December, right before the German spearhead made it into the northeastern suburbs? I think it is safe to assume that the loss of Moscow would not have lead to and end of the war, or why on the other do you think it would?

No, I think Flaviusx has a good point - what are the victory conditions?

Sure, initially Germany believed they could knock Russia out like a house of cards, but I don't think Russia ever really believed that. No doubt Stalin et al were shaken by events in '41, but it was pretty evident Russia was in it for the long haul. And in '42 Hitler himself began looking towards eliminating Russia's capacity to wage war as well as her will. It was a different war from '39 and '40.

No surrender conditions with Moscow. Actually, no campaign victory conditions are in yet, but it will take much more than Moscow for the Germans to win outright. Loss of Moscow would be a loss of a lot of population, although some would migrate to other locations. Not sure if there would be much of a factory hit as I don't know how much is still there and needing to be relocated. The game would certainly not end if Moscow fell. Now the fact that there is a land bridge to Leningrad will eventually hurt Jon as the population, which is damaged when it has to take supplies only via the lake, will be able to get healthy again and start churning out additional soldiers for the Soviet army.