Matrix Games Forums

ORIGINAL: ComradeP

Oleg, I'll be here when you do want to play the Axis against a competent Soviet opponent/when you stop giving vague reasons why you're not going to play as the Axis and actually try to prove the point you're making.

Uhm??? Me as Axis does not make any sense now, when I am arguing that Sov supermen are worse for this game than German supermen. One thing I was consistent about, is that I hate supermen. First I hated German supermen, and laughed at everyone who whined his summer Germans are weak (they are not). Lately, as my campaigns progressed, I came to hate Soviet winter supermen even more.

To me, that's pretty consistent - I just hate supermen and artificial scripts using weather and rules to turn the game into sitcom. I am not "changing with the wind". At least no one can accuse me of favoring one side over the other, I hate supermen on both sides.

I certainly hope that once we are past spring 42 threshold there will be no more artificial supermen on the battlefield, and the war will simply take it's course.

So, no one will play me as Axis? Too bad.

ORIGINAL: Oleg Mastruko

ORIGINAL: ComradeP

Oleg, I'll be here when you do want to play the Axis against a competent Soviet opponent/when you stop giving vague reasons why you're not going to play as the Axis and actually try to prove the point you're making.

Uhm??? Me as Axis does not make any sense now, when I am arguing that Sov supermen are worse for this game than German supermen. One thing I was consistent about, is that I hate supermen. First I hated German supermen, and laughed at everyone who whined his summer Germans are weak (they are not). Lately, as my campaigns progressed, I came to hate Soviet winter supermen even more.

To me, that's pretty consistent - I just hate supermen and artificial scripts using weather and rules to turn the game into sitcom. I am not "changing with the wind". At least no one can accuse me of favoring one side over the other, I hate supermen on both sides.

I certainly hope that once we are past spring 42 threshold there will be no more artificial supermen on the battlefield, and the war will simply take it's course.

So, no one will play me as Axis? Too bad.

/waves

ORIGINAL: Senno

oleg, I suspect ComradeP would be a more fun game for you and a better test overall. But I shall play you (either side, your choice) if desired. I can commit to a turn a day.

Either side, your choice. If you want to crush me in winter rather than summer, that's fine.[;)]

ORIGINAL: ComradeP
Sorry for all of us hijacking your AAR by the way, Q-Ball.

"Sorry"? That is not enough. We should clean the house before leaving: empty bottles of beer, whisky, cans, ashtrays, pretzels, sweeping the floor... and above all do NOT rob anything, show your pockets, please [;)]

ORIGINAL: Senno
Either side, your choice. If you want to crush me in winter rather than summer, that's fine.[;)]

I do not want to crush you, I'd be fine if you could prove me that winter is survivable for the German (and summer for Soviet). As you may see from Pieter's accusations, I have no problems changing my mind "with the wind". (I'd say I change my mind when I see arguments but whatever.... maybe the arguments are in the wind? <= sounds like Sun Tzu)

ORIGINAL: TulliusDetritus

ORIGINAL: ComradeP
Sorry for all of us hijacking your AAR by the way, Q-Ball.

"Sorry"? That is not enough. We should clean the house before leaving: empty bottles of beer, whisky, cans, ashtrays, pretzels, sweeping the floor... and above all do NOT rob anything, show your pockets, please [;)]

I see it like we are just crashing on a teenage party while parents are away (Beanie having, hopefully, just some problems with the net or something). As soon as the Beanie and the proper AAR return, we are OUTTA HERE

Uhm??? Me as Axis does not make any sense now, when I am arguing that Sov supermen are worse for this game than German supermen. One thing I was consistent about, is that I hate supermen. First I hated German supermen, and laughed at everyone who whined his summer Germans are weak (they are not). Lately, as my campaigns progressed, I came to hate Soviet winter supermen even more.

You laughed at anyone claiming the Axis were facing some ahistorical difficulties. I offered you a chance to show that even against a tester, when you still had limited experience yourself, you could overcome Soviet resistance with those supposed supermen. You declined.

Also: the actual blizzard penalties haven't really been changed since release, so everything abulbulian and others mentioned is as true now as it was then. I wouldn't exactly call it "consistent" when you suddenly open your eyes to see the truth behind something the people you mocked were saying. That's changing with the majority view.

So, no one will play me as Axis? Too bad.

I don't see what the point would be. Playing for around 37 turns to show you the Soviets are not as awesome as you think they are in winter is not really worth my time.

ORIGINAL: Oleg Mastruko

ORIGINAL: ComradeP

Oleg, I'll be here when you do want to play the Axis against a competent Soviet opponent/when you stop giving vague reasons why you're not going to play as the Axis and actually try to prove the point you're making.

Uhm??? Me as Axis does not make any sense now, when I am arguing that Sov supermen are worse for this game than German supermen. One thing I was consistent about, is that I hate supermen. First I hated German supermen, and laughed at everyone who whined his summer Germans are weak (they are not). Lately, as my campaigns progressed, I came to hate Soviet winter supermen even more.

To me, that's pretty consistent - I just hate supermen and artificial scripts using weather and rules to turn the game into sitcom. I am not "changing with the wind". At least no one can accuse me of favoring one side over the other, I hate supermen on both sides.

I certainly hope that once we are past spring 42 threshold there will be no more artificial supermen on the battlefield, and the war will simply take it's course.

So, no one will play me as Axis? Too bad.

Oleg, I would gladly play with you [:)] The problem is I am already playing a PBEM (which might not last that much though). Still I don't like games which are supposed to prove some point (whatever point by the way). I only play for FUN [8D]

EDIT: oops, no, you are looking for a GERMAN player. NOT me, thanks. I stick to my Dear Red Army [:D]

So Q-ball, at this stage what are your thoughts about spring 1942? Having just finished Turn 17 of my PBEM, and facing loads of lvl 3/4 forts near Moscow, I"m quickly becoming of the mind that after 1941, it's not worth attacking further into Russia. Just too bloody, especially if my army is guaranteed to get decimated in winter, and I don't see the reward of taking such hard won prizes. I'm thinking it's better to go the defensive and use the mobile reserve to cut off Russian attacks as they push inward. What do you think?

ORIGINAL: ComradeP
You laughed at anyone claiming the Axis were facing some ahistorical difficulties. Also: the actual blizzard penalties haven't really been changed since release, so everything abulbulian and others mentioned is as true now as it was then. I wouldn't exactly call it "consistent" when you suddenly open your eyes to see the truth behind something the people you mocked were saying. That's changing with the majority view.

Pieter mate, see my explanation to Senno above. I come on these boards to have fun, share a good laugh, poke fun at people, laugh at their misfortunes etc. So yes, I did poke fun at Ara and his "INSANE MADNESS!!!!" posts over losing 200 people or something. I would probably do it again. And yes, I think Axis in summer are overpowered, and his summer whines were unfounded (also overdramatic and generally hilarious).

I wasn't ready to go against you, because you're the beta tester and have (or had) more experience. Lets just say summer Germans are overpowered in game between two players with equal experience. We didn't have, and probably still don't have, equal experience, so....? It takes lots of skill to use German superpowers, but it can be done.

Soviet winter superpowers, though, are SO EASY to use, even a less experienced player (like me vs you) is able to use or abuse them. If Sov survives till winter, anyone can do it. So, supposed that I survive German summer superpowers (which is dubious in itself but lets try), I am perfectly ready to play Sov superpowers vs anyone including you. I hope I explained my position better now.

No need to lose tact over these matters BTW.

Sorry to have intervened Q-Ball. Thanks for the fine hospitality. I am disappointed that TD never brought out the popcorn, though.

And PM recieved and responded to from Oleg. So it appears I will be the Germans and game will be underway shortly.

ORIGINAL: Senno

Sorry to have intervened Q-Ball. Thanks for the fine hospitality. I am disappointed that TD never brought out the popcorn, though.

Here it is

This debate -as opposed to the other ones, er involving Abulbulian and kirkgregerson - is at least bad words, insults, ad hominen attacks FREE [8D]

We all like this game, so these HEATED debates are in my opinion a good sign. I don't think people are thinking about sending their assassins [:)]

In any case, I am very used to such debates (as most of you, especially Oleg, he's been on these forums since 2000 [X(]). The WitP forum was full of these debates. But unlike here (sorry to say this but it's true [:(]), there NEVER was people insulting.

ORIGINAL: Senno

Sorry to have intervened Q-Ball. Thanks for the fine hospitality. I am disappointed that TD never brought out the popcorn, though.

And PM recieved and responded to from Oleg. So it appears I will be the Germans and game will be underway shortly.

Yep, game started. It's superhumans vs superhumans again....

I say this with lots of confidence: if he does not walk over me by Oct 41, I will walk over him by march 42 and the game will effectivelly be over.

It's like two boxers that both have killing punch. Either the A will KO B in the round one, or the B will KO A in round two. There will hardly be round 3, because that's how the game currently works.

If we reach spring 42 both in fighting condition, score one for Big and ComradeP [:D]

ORIGINAL: TulliusDetritus

ORIGINAL: Senno

Sorry to have intervened Q-Ball. Thanks for the fine hospitality. I am disappointed that TD never brought out the popcorn, though.

Here it is

This debate -as opposed to the other ones, er involving Abulbulian and kirkgregerson - is at least bad words, insults, ad hominen attacks FREE [8D]

We all like this game, so these HEATED debates are in my opinion a good sign. I don't think people are thinking about sending their assassins [:)]

In any case, I am very used to such debates (as most of you, especially Oleg, he's been on these forums since 2000 [X(]). The WitP forum was full of these debates. But unlike here (sorry to say this but it's true [:(]), there NEVER was people insulting.

Our debate was to clean? Darn, we will never help drive up Q-Balls views with a boring debate....[;)]

OK, well it's 1:00 PM my time. So the turn will be back to you tomorrow this time, Oleg. Now I hate to eat popcorn and leave, but I have a busy afternoon scheduled.

It would be a good thing if both of you Senno and Oleg DO write an AAR. Will you be doing that? [&o]

I come on these boards to have fun, share a good laugh, poke fun at people, laugh at their misfortunes etc. So yes, I did poke fun at Ara and his "INSANE MADNESS!!!!" posts over losing 200 people or something. I would probably do it again.

Let's just say your definition of "poking fun at people" comes too close to my definition of "mocking" for me to agree with what you're saying here, that you were just having a laugh.

-

OK, now that all of this is over with, getting back to the AAR might be a good idea.

-

Altaris: I am, of course, not Q-Ball, but having tested the 1942 campaign, where Soviet units are basically of a worse quality than they'll be in Q-Ball's game, I can comment on what he can at the least expect.

-For starters: even with mediocre Rifle divisions in level 3 or so forts, Axis casualties will be significantly higher than in 1941. On average losses will be around 700-1000 men per attack at the least against enemies in forts, especially when the VVS shows up.

-Massed Il-2 strikes against mobile forces are really ugly for the Germans, fairly easily adding about 500-1000 casualties if there are hundreds Il-2's and/or fighter bombers or halfway decent level bombers.

-The Soviets will regain something resembling mobile formations. The earliest Tank corps is only a small improvement over a Tank brigade by itself, but it can take attachments and its TOE upgrades too a respectable TOE in July, before the German summer offensive really gets going. Even with about 50 experience/morale, some 200 AFV's (with attached Tank battalions) in each Tank corps can cause a few ugly surprises for the Axis. The Soviets have plenty of short ranged level bombers that are not good for much else than flying supply missions, so transporting fuel is much less of an issue for them than for the Germans, even though the Soviets lack transport units. As such, with a decent leader the Tank units should have fairly good (~40 MP's) each turn and should thus be capable of making one or even two deliberate attacks.

-As you can see in Q-Ball's screenshots, German formations (aside from mobile formations) are not what they were pre-blizzard. Whereas infantry divisions are difficult to attack pre-blizzard, the Soviets can attack the ~6-7 CV infantry divisions fairly easily in summer 1942, slowing down progress even further.

-Provided the Soviets don't screw up with training and sending replacements to the right units, most Soviet units should be ready and should be capable of attacking. Guards and shock army units are capable of launching pretty good attacks and especially Guards won't rout easily.

-Attacking is going to be costly, so a limited offensive, aimed at creating pockets with a strong ring around them (and when I say strong, I mean strong, if you place a Panzer division's regiment to prevent a breakout it will get whacked) is probably the way to go. You should forget about deep strikes, they're just not economical in terms of forces applied/casualties taken and caused/gains.

Which I guess was my question... is it even worthwhile to try to make a dent in that Soviet wall come 1942? If there's not some viable strategic reason to, seems like forces would be better held on defense. Let the Soviets push in on the attack (where they don't have waves of forts) and counter-attack/cut them off if they push too fast or hard. Just seems a better use of limited manpower and material to me.

To me, the goals in 1942 should be gobbling up as many Soviet forces (units rather than men, preferably) as possible using mostly economical high gain-minimum risk attacks. A couple of pockets and backhand blows here and there, digging in with most of your army and then let the Soviets come for their first offensive in winter. In 1943, you should do everything you can to make Soviet advances slow and costly. In 1944, you should focus on a few key points you want to defend and should try to keep as many minor Axis nations+Finland in the war as possible. In 1945, you should primarily try praying and visiting a psychiatrist because you're rocking up and down repeating "they have so many men!, so many tanks!, so many guns!"

Once I am further into my current 1942 campaign, I will outline what I think is a workable strategy. Part of it is outlined in my War Room post about strategic principles. I think one aspect that is important for the Axis is for them to try to maintain the initiative for as long as possible. There is a short AAR by Tarhunnas, that shows clearly what happens once the initiative is lost- game over very quickly.

hello,

this sound bad for me.
My opinion (and historical facts) said, the russian army was near exhaustion in 1945.. cause they lost so many troops... also they "used" a lot men out of "liberated" countries as cannon fodder....

if the axis is better then historically and had the russians turned white in losses, why should the russian player have so many troops?`
The germans made after 1941 a lot big mistakes that costed them a lot troops and material... is it clear and without variation that the best thing the german can reach is a repeated history? Really? why should one play the axis side (or the whole game?)

I hoped for a game with
a.) russian side:
do better as the russians did historically, avoid mistakes, hit back harder and have better front lines in 1942. Avoid mistakes of 42 or 43 and play as good as 44 (45 is in this theory only "move west")
b.) axis side:
do better as the axis did historically, avoid mistakes (try to take leningrad, do not overstretch your powers, defend better in blizzard (hoho), start a better campagin in 42 and - with luck - hold in 43 deep in the east and let the russian dy in huge numbers in your well prepared defence lines deep in mother russia, so you do not need to retreat in 44 and end in 45 as "winner" deep in russia.

If there are coded events so you can´t do better as historical results (both sides), why should one play the gc?

Example: You play axis, take leningrad, rostov and moscow. You damage the russian industry, destroy more tanks/guns, kill more russians and - even more important loose less troops (some things work better and you avoid some huge mistakes). You loose in blizard moscow, hold leningrad and your average losses after blizzard are lower as historically.
With this, your campagin in 42 is better, you take stalingrad, optimize your frontline in the north and center and kick the russians out of the caucasus. Your frontline is short, well defended behind high forts behind rivers... if in such a case the german defence will be no problem for the russians (they had huge problems with the bad german defence and hitlers "orders" - so if you do way better as historical and you still get kicked around the game has another (defence-)problem... even worser as in the moment, because the time you loose to recognize the problem is longer)

But i hope the team of matrix will solve such problems... after all i did until now not buy the game and can only talk about the written things.

GAME UPDATE:

Von Beanie lives in the mountains of California, and a snowstorm knocked out power to his house for 3 days. THAT's why we hadn't heard from him! Pretty hard to play without electricity......

At any rate, we have agreed to RESTART, using Bob's House Rules on Winter. There were a few problems with this game, not just my BAD winter, but also a bug which created 200 Armament Factories in Tula, and damaged others. We also installed several patches along the way, so this was all in all a dry run.

My only regret is that I hope I can take Leningrad again!!!!!!!

Look for another AAR in the near future

You guys can go back to hijacking this; in fact, I re-title the thread for you if you want!!!!!

Thanks everyone for reading, I hope everyone learned something.

Let me know if anyone wants final STATS in 1/29/42; I will post those.