Matrix Games Forums

Posted: **Tue May 26, 2015 9:21 pm**

ORIGINAL: 76mm

ORIGINAL: juntoalmar
Well, actually, software development is a complicated issue.
For the record, I never said that software development isn't complicated--of course it is.

What isn't complicated is the decision to release a beta product as if it were a final product. And while it might be "complicated" to determine what is a beta product, this is Matrix's business after all--they've released how many dozens of games over the last few years? Sorry, but I think they should have figured that part of the business out by now. And I hate to keep repeating this, but they had an very similar experience with EiA but apparently didn't learn any lessons. And I was less than satisfied with WitE upon its release as well. And while they did a commendable job patching and repatching WitE as well as possible, the same can't be said about EiA (which I had hoped to buy but ultimately did not based on the poor reviews).

To be clear, this is not a frothing rant against Matrix--I bought dozens of their games over the years, and am sure that I'll buy more, but at this point I tend to wait a few months after release to get a better understanding from the state of the game from the forums before buying.

But as a counter argument what if Matrix did NOT know that so many issues would come up after release. I'm sure the beta's and Steve had a bug list and if Steve and Matrix felt the amount of KNOWN bugs was acceptable (i.e. they have released games before with X% of bugs) and that they could be fixed within a month or two post release. If this was the case (and I have no idea if it was or not) why would they call the release a beta? After the release it was way too late to call the game a beta so we have what we currently have.

Just like hindsight helps us in playing these types of games, it is easy to use it to say Matrix should have done this or that. But just like Germany did not expect France to fall so fast, Matrix may not have expected the bugs to grow so fast. After all if Germany KNEW France would fall so fast (or even Poland) like we do today, would they still have signed an agreement with Stalin? If Matrix could roll back the clock, I like to think they would have done things a LOT different. Just like we do when we play. But until there is a game called 'Matrix World in Flames Software Release' we will never be able to revisit the past and try to recreate a better outcome [:)]

Posted: **Wed May 27, 2015 1:50 am**

But as a counter argument what if Matrix did NOT know that so many issues would come up after release. I'm sure the beta's and Steve had a bug list and if Steve and Matrix felt the amount of KNOWN bugs was acceptable (i.e. they have released games before with X% of bugs) and that they could be fixed within a month or two post release.

I expect that this was the case. But my point is that computer wargames is Matrix's business, and at this point I would expect them to have a pretty good idea about how to figure out if a game is beta or not. If they didn't know, then that indicates that the testing was inadequate, which they should have realized prior to release. I would think they would be especially cautious about releasing complex board game conversions given their poor experience with them (eg, EiA). So to me, a "they didn't know" excuse is wholly unconvincing. Maybe something in their contract with ADG forced them to release the game, dunno...

Two out of three of my last game purchases from Matrix (WiF and WitE) I thought were half-baked on release. The most recent game that I bought (CMANO) was in good shape when I bought it, but that was several months after release. For me, from now on all Matrix games will be on a "wait and see" list for several months after release.

Posted: **Wed May 27, 2015 9:00 am**

Again I agree with 76mm.
The lesson I have learned is never to buy games upon release, but wait and see and let others do the beta testing ( again kudos to you).
Then perhaps I can get the game nice and patched and perhaps even at a lower price or else I can pass. That is for me the consequence of many gaming companys business model, where much of the beta testing takes place after release ( Total War: Rome II is an other example).
I personally felt cheated when I also paid premium price for Rome 2 at release and the game was very buggy when I instead could have waited for a Steam sale and then gotten the game at a lower price and in a better condition.
I think it is not fair to pay premium price for half-baked games, when instead if I wait I can get games that hopefully are in better condition and perhaps even at a lower price.
It should be the other way around.
But again I am just a customer with no interest in beta testing ( at least not at premium price) so I will act accordingly.

Posted: **Wed May 27, 2015 11:52 am**

I'm saying you this: the decision to release the game was made by Matrix.

And by saying this, I've said almost too much already...

Posted: **Wed May 27, 2015 2:37 pm**

ORIGINAL: NielsJuel
I think it is not fair to pay premium price for half-baked games, when instead if I wait I can get games that hopefully are in better condition and perhaps even at a lower price.
It should be the other way around.

Generally I agree, particularly since at least some games have a hard-core fan base that would probably be willing to pay a premium price for a beta project just to support development. Personally I'm going to buy the upcoming MidEast Campaign Series game just because I really admire what the devs are doing.

I'm not aware of any wargames that have been developed on Kickstarter, but I recently read that the developer of Star Citizen--a space game--has raised something like $72 million (!!) from Kickstarter and its own site.

I think that Steel Panthers and maybe TOAW is crying out for an approach like this, rather than what might come to be known as the "Matrix Model" if Matrix isn't careful.

Posted: **Wed May 27, 2015 9:04 pm**

Twilight Struggle is in progress via Kickstarter. I think the objective was $200K and they got close to $500K.

...but $72M ??? OMG!

Posted: **Thu May 28, 2015 12:32 am**

Now up to $80 million; here is a Wikipedia article about the game, which has a section on funding...amazing:

Star Citizen

Posted: **Thu May 28, 2015 1:40 am**

Interesting stuff, thanks.

I still want to know how much money you have to pump in to Game of War for it to reveal Kate Upton's breasts however. I think a couple big spenders in the Middle East are desperate to find out, from what I read on the interwebz.

I have a wonderful war-game that is quite simple and intuitive but has very high re-playability and good historical feel coming through the simplicity. Lots and lots of dice rolling too. It was a Charles Roberts award winner upon release I believe. It would make a just exactly perfect tablet app.

Posted: **Thu May 28, 2015 1:45 am**

ORIGINAL: brian brian
I have a wonderful war-game that is quite simple and intuitive but has very high re-playability and good historical feel coming through the simplicity. Lots and lots of dice rolling too.

Gee, sounds like ASL, hahaha.

Posted: **Thu May 28, 2015 2:02 am**

I used to love Squad Leader. I would never ever want to play it on a computer though. Computers should be used to erase playability compromises like IGoYouGo, not go back to the past. I would like to play certain Cross of Iron scenarios with simultaneous blind movement and a real simulation of company/battalion commander command&control capabilities, possibly in Real Time. Wait, you mean enemy tanks don't stop and wait for their "turn" ?

The battle in the movie "We Were Soldiers" is a much better example of what combat command is is probably like than a Squad Leader scenario is. Would make a great war-game on a computer.

I would also like to play an American Civil War game where your orders reach the left wing at the speed of a dispatch rider and your map of the battle is a hand-drawn Engineer topo plus random local intelligence and what you can see through the smoke with your own eyes.

Option 47 does seem rather Hollywood-esque now that I think about it. We may have been out of supply behind enemy lines for over an hour now, but thank God we didn't run out of hair conditioner.

Posted: **Thu May 28, 2015 1:02 pm**

ORIGINAL: brian brian

I used to love Squad Leader. I would never ever want to play it on a computer though. Computers should be used to erase playability compromises like IGoYouGo, not go back to the past. I would like to play certain Cross of Iron scenarios with simultaneous blind movement and a real simulation of company/battalion commander command&control capabilities, possibly in Real Time. Wait, you mean enemy tanks don't stop and wait for their "turn" ?

The battle in the movie "We Were Soldiers" is a much better example of what combat command is is probably like than a Squad Leader scenario is. Would make a great war-game on a computer.

I would also like to play an American Civil War game where your orders reach the left wing at the speed of a dispatch rider and your map of the battle is a hand-drawn Engineer topo plus random local intelligence and what you can see through the smoke with your own eyes.

Option 47 does seem rather Hollywood-esque now that I think about it. We may have been out of supply behind enemy lines for over an hour now, but thank God we didn't run out of hair conditioner.

Or hair spray for my thin hair [:D]

Bo

Posted: **Thu May 28, 2015 2:51 pm**

Problem with real time games. Its not enough that your mind is fast enough to figure out what you want to do.
Its how fast your hand and fingers are as you think. Mouse monkey games are great for younger gamers.
Not so much as your body ages.
Playability and Realism is the tightrope to negotiate.

For the young and older gamer. Chess is Igoygo. Still a popular turn based game.
http://www.fide.com/component/content/a ... ougov.html
Wargames created in the classic igoygo play style is an acceptable way to play. Even for a computer game.

That American Civil War game you want is here. At least its pretty darn close to your description.
Scourge of War
http://www.scourgeofwar.com/index.shtml

Here's to more Turn-based games

Posted: **Thu May 28, 2015 8:33 pm**

ORIGINAL: Centuur

I'm saying you this: the decision to release the game was made by Matrix.

And by saying this, I've said almost too much already...

O.K., reading between the lines then I surmise that Steve was not ready to release but was forced to by Matrix?

I know, you're under an NDA that prevents you from either confirming or denying this.

So, let me pose another question to the folks here in general. (1) Is it better to have MWiF in the state it's in and under continued development by Steve or (2) Not have MWiF?

Personally I think (1) is the better option (condition) because I think Matrix would be much more likely to pull the plug on MWiF in case (2) versus (1). This is, unless we all abandon MWiF.

Another question, is it better to have an "imperfect", but evolving MWiF or an abandoned (or no) MWiF?

Posted: **Thu May 28, 2015 8:36 pm**

ORIGINAL: 76mm

ORIGINAL: brian brian
I have a wonderful war-game that is quite simple and intuitive but has very high re-playability and good historical feel coming through the simplicity. Lots and lots of dice rolling too.

Gee, sounds like ASL, hahaha.

It's got to be RISK. [:D]

Posted: **Thu May 28, 2015 9:42 pm**

ORIGINAL: rkr1958
So, let me pose another question to the folks here in general. (1) Is it better to have MWiF in the state it's in and under continued development by Steve or (2) Not have MWiF?

Personally I think (1) is the better option (condition) because I think Matrix would be much more likely to pull the plug on MWiF in case (2) versus (1). This is, unless we all abandon MWiF.

Another question, is it better to have an "imperfect", but evolving MWiF or an abandoned (or no) MWiF?

I'm pretty much indifferent, but if we go with Option 1, I am very firmly in the camp that it should not have been sold unless it was made clear to customers that it was "under development" when released.

Posted: **Thu May 28, 2015 9:44 pm**

deleted

Posted: **Thu May 28, 2015 10:01 pm**

ORIGINAL: rkr1958

ORIGINAL: Centuur

I'm saying you this: the decision to release the game was made by Matrix.

And by saying this, I've said almost too much already...
O.K., reading between the lines then I surmise that Steve was not ready to release but was forced to by Matrix?

I know, you're under an NDA that prevents you from either confirming or denying this.

So, let me pose another question to the folks here in general. (1) Is it better to have MWiF in the state it's in and under continued development by Steve or (2) Not have MWiF?

Personally I think (1) is the better option (condition) because I think Matrix would be much more likely to pull the plug on MWiF in case (2) versus (1). This is, unless we all abandon MWiF.

Another question, is it better to have an "imperfect", but evolving MWiF or an abandoned (or no) MWiF?

Reading between the lines rkr I believe that neither Steve or Matrix had a choice about the release of MWIF. Now contemplate that for awhile. Need any more clues? [;)]

I think at this point some of the beta testers could care less about the NDA and with that said I cant deny or confirm because I just don't know at this point in time, above our pay grades.

Up to the next question you have been pretty good with your posts, found this question a little strange, of course it is better for Steve to go on as the next choice is doomsville.

I have no idea whether Matrix will pull the plug or not, I do feel that if this was costing them funds out of their pocket this Matrix MWIF game forum would be long gone.

The last question I will leave alone as I cannot think of an answer to give you. Are you feeling all right rkr? [:(] Or are you just testing us.

Bo

Posted: **Thu May 28, 2015 10:16 pm**

ORIGINAL: rkr1958

ORIGINAL: 76mm

ORIGINAL: brian brian
I have a wonderful war-game that is quite simple and intuitive but has very high re-playability and good historical feel coming through the simplicity. Lots and lots of dice rolling too.

Gee, sounds like ASL, hahaha.
It's got to be RISK. [:D]

I love Risk rkr, but sometimes with all the tough decisions that have to be made wear me down that is why I take a breather once in a while and play MWIF [:D]

Bo

Posted: **Thu May 28, 2015 10:29 pm**

ORIGINAL: bo

ORIGINAL: rkr1958

ORIGINAL: Centuur

I'm saying you this: the decision to release the game was made by Matrix.

And by saying this, I've said almost too much already...
O.K., reading between the lines then I surmise that Steve was not ready to release but was forced to by Matrix?

I know, you're under an NDA that prevents you from either confirming or denying this.

So, let me pose another question to the folks here in general. (1) Is it better to have MWiF in the state it's in and under continued development by Steve or (2) Not have MWiF?

Personally I think (1) is the better option (condition) because I think Matrix would be much more likely to pull the plug on MWiF in case (2) versus (1). This is, unless we all abandon MWiF.

Another question, is it better to have an "imperfect", but evolving MWiF or an abandoned (or no) MWiF?

Reading between the lines rkr I believe that neither Steve or Matrix had a choice about the release of MWIF. Now contemplate that for awhile. Need any more clues? [;)]

I think at this point some of the beta testers could care less about the NDA and with that said I cant deny or confirm because I just don't know at this point in time, above our pay grades.

Up to the next question you have been pretty good with your posts, found this question a little strange, of course it is better for Steve to go on as the next choice is doomsville.

I have no idea whether Matrix will pull the plug or not, I do feel that if this was costing them funds out of their pocket this Matrix MWIF game forum would be long gone.

The last question I will leave alone as I cannot think of an answer to give you. Are you feeling all right rkr? [:(] Or are you just testing us.

Bo

I haven't had my daily fix of MWiF ... I'll be alright in a few minutes though. [;)]

Seriously though, I'd never heard of WiF, or MWiF, until about 6 or so years ago. Honestly, I thought the game was a bit out of my reach in terms of complexity and scope. And as far as WiF was concerned, physical space. Then a little over a year ago, on impulse I bought MWiF and have not regretted one bit. I'm having a blast. What saddens me, is the thought of MWiF and this forum going away. I don't mean literally, but becoming dead ... an abandoned game and a ghost forum.

My perspective is that I'm new to (M)WiF and only been learning / playing it since February 2014. I know this project has been in the works for more than a decade. That's a long time in the computer world, both software and hardware wise. I also can understand that folks who are experts on and play the cardboard and paper version of MWiF, expect MWiF to faithfully match that experience to within reasonable bounds. Not having that experience, I'm blissfully ignorant of when "key" rules are present or not enforced properly. When playing, I just accept how the game operates is how I'm suppose to play it.

Also, I'm not a beta tester and therefore privy to information the rest of you have. Or, do I see the behind the scenes politics and disagreements that you do. I'm just excited about MWiF and want to it, and this forum, to be vibrant a decade from now. Heck, two decades from now. I'm being selfish, but I don't want to lose either. That's where I'm coming from. [:(]

Posted: **Thu May 28, 2015 10:58 pm**

ORIGINAL: rkr1958

ORIGINAL: bo

ORIGINAL: rkr1958

O.K., reading between the lines then I surmise that Steve was not ready to release but was forced to by Matrix?

I know, you're under an NDA that prevents you from either confirming or denying this.

So, let me pose another question to the folks here in general. (1) Is it better to have MWiF in the state it's in and under continued development by Steve or (2) Not have MWiF?

Personally I think (1) is the better option (condition) because I think Matrix would be much more likely to pull the plug on MWiF in case (2) versus (1). This is, unless we all abandon MWiF.

Another question, is it better to have an "imperfect", but evolving MWiF or an abandoned (or no) MWiF?

Reading between the lines rkr I believe that neither Steve or Matrix had a choice about the release of MWIF. Now contemplate that for awhile. Need any more clues? [;)]

I think at this point some of the beta testers could care less about the NDA and with that said I cant deny or confirm because I just don't know at this point in time, above our pay grades.

Up to the next question you have been pretty good with your posts, found this question a little strange, of course it is better for Steve to go on as the next choice is doomsville.

I have no idea whether Matrix will pull the plug or not, I do feel that if this was costing them funds out of their pocket this Matrix MWIF game forum would be long gone.

The last question I will leave alone as I cannot think of an answer to give you. Are you feeling all right rkr? [:(] Or are you just testing us.

Bo
I haven't had my daily fix of MWiF ... I'll be alright in a few minutes though. [;)]

Seriously though, I'd never heard of WiF, or MWiF, until about 6 or so years ago. Honestly, I thought the game was a bit out of my reach in terms of complexity and scope. And as far as WiF was concerned, physical space. Then a little over a year ago, on impulse I bought MWiF and have not regretted one bit. I'm having a blast. What saddens me, is the thought of MWiF and this forum going away. I don't mean literally, but becoming dead ... an abandoned game and a ghost forum.

My perspective is that I'm new to (M)WiF and only been learning / playing it since February 2014. I know this project has been in the works for more than a decade. That's a long time in the computer world, both software and hardware wise. I also can understand that folks who are experts on and play the cardboard and paper version of MWiF, expect MWiF to faithfully match that experience to within reasonable bounds. Not having that experience, I'm blissfully ignorant of when "key" rules are present or not enforced properly. When playing, I just accept how the game operates is how I'm suppose to play it.

Also, I'm not a beta tester and therefore privy to information the rest of you have. Or, do I see the behind the scenes politics and disagreements that you do. I'm just excited about MWiF and want to it, and this forum, to be vibrant a decade from now. Heck, two decades from now. I'm being selfish, but I don't want to lose either. That's where I'm coming from. [:(]

Well said appreciate your feelings for MWIF rkr, I too knew nothing about the game prior to 2009, I think about 2011 I joined the beta team and was astonished by the complexity and what Steve had to deal with, I have no knowledge of politics but there was some discussions about direction to say the least.

I do not like the direction that we went and have said it many times both in the beta forums and the general forums until posters are tired of hearing of my position on MWIF. I have always openly expressed my feelings on the forums NDA or no NDA. IMHO the ball is now in Matrix's corner and I personally think, on second thought I will keep this opinion to myself for another month or two. [:(]

Bo

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