Matrix Games Forums

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

As to Geoff, I've never been able to figure out his humor. That's not on him; that's on me. I just don't get him. Occasionally he and I will get into some discussion with some banter, and then he'll snap off something sorta snarky...or I think it's snarky...or I wonder if it's snarky...or I wonder if it's his humor. Most of the guys on the Forum get his humor, so I know it's not him. He's probably living in a Kelly's Heroes or Saturday Night Live world while I'm living It's a Wonderful Life.

Is it that he's not saying "Well, I do declare!" as a preamble before his attempts at humor? [:'(]

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve
assume that he's going to take at my literal word, "No Rules". I've expanded on what I mean , explained what "gamey" is to me (if it feels gamey, don't do it). And somehow I get the impression that he hears "NO RULES". And if it does something "gamey" , and I call him on it , I'll get "NO RULES" thrown back in my face.

Well, this is one of the perils of replacing codified written rules with a vague, nebulous sort of subjective 'understanding'.

If the written rules are too onerous or legalese for your liking, then you're reduced to an assumed meeting of the minds about all aspects of gameplay. I submit that such an assumption is unwarranted even among the most congenial and communicative of partners. As with everything else in this game, the devil is *ALWAYS* in the details and it frequently 'feels' different to different players.

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve
my qualms about making task forces and giving them orders and putting up CAP are getting very, very thin. In fact that's the only defense of any kind I have. To me if he "goes off the reservation" I feel I must also. [:(] And we did say "no rules". It sounds like he might be taking me very literally. [:(][X(][8|]

Yes, but you did also say 'Japanese surprise on'. Creation of TFs and putting up CAP would be in direct contravention of that most basic of understandings. Like Canoerebel's comments about hunting Saratoga on turn one, a game against such an Allied player that sought to undermine this most basic of understandings would last exactly one turn.

Don't do it. [:-]

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve
my qualms about making task forces and giving them orders and putting up CAP are getting very, very thin. In fact that's the only defense of any kind I have. To me if he "goes off the reservation" I feel I must also. [:(] And we did say "no rules". It sounds like he might be taking me very literally. [:(][X(][8|]

Yes, but you did also say 'Japanese surprise on'. Creation of TFs and putting up CAP would be in direct contravention of that most basic of understandings. Like Canoerebel's comments about hunting Saratoga on turn one, a game against such an Allied player that sought to undermine this most basic of understandings would last exactly one turn.

Don't do it. [:-]

Doesn't "Japanese surprise on" give an automatic massive advantage? Here is one problem I have with this. If we are to be stupid robots then we should always start the game with the Dec 8 option. By starting on Dec 7th you give "free will" to the Japanese player , while absolutely constricting the allied player. That , to me anyway , not only seems unfair (as no matter how honest the Japanese player is , he can't forget history) and you loosen the ties on the Japanese player , while restricting the Allied. It doesn't strike me as much of a challenge for a competent Japanese player. I could see it in a rookie player playing against an experienced one (but then again , the Japanese player SHOULD always be the better player). And of course the whole "no rules" concept shouldn't mean "one hand tied behind your back (even though this feels like BOTH hands tied behind your back).



I've had some very good points raised by people I truly respect and admire (Yourself included). And they are almost exclusively moral in nature. Here's what I'm going to do. I'm going to contact Geoff , and this time I'M putting the game on hold till we can meet and discuss this over a beer (or three). There is no reason why we don't get to know each other (only 26 miles between us) and chew over what we consider "gamey". A couple of hours should clear this up. Whadda ya think, sirs? [:)]

It is a long game and a very large investment of time and thought. You do need to have the context of the game correct at the start. I think he just said he had to restart his turn 1 because of some mistake he made, so this is probably a good time to get the game context right.

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve
I've had some very good points raised by people I truly respect and admire (Yourself included). And they are almost exclusively moral in nature. Here's what I'm going to do. I'm going to contact Geoff , and this time I'M putting the game on hold till we can meet and discuss this over a beer (or three). There is no reason why we don't get to know each other (only 26 miles between us) and chew over what we consider "gamey". A couple of hours should clear this up. Whadda ya think, sirs? [:)]

It's certainly your prerogative to put the game on hold (assuming that there *was* a game afoot) for whatever reason you desire. It's your game and you should do whatever makes you and your partner happy.

My opinion is that this is something that should be cleared up before embarking on a PBEM.

There is nothing actionable that has occurred to this point that should put the game on hold in my opinion. This smacks of an unnecessary and prospective wringing of hands and machinations where none is due.

Has Geoff gone 'carrier hunting' on turn one? Nope. Has he struck Saratoga at her San Diego berth? Nope. Has he magically teleported the entirety of KB to the Indian Ocean on turn one? Uh-uh.

Why doncha see how it plays out for a turn or two before putting a non-existent game on hold?

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve
I've had some very good points raised by people I truly respect and admire (Yourself included). And they are almost exclusively moral in nature. Here's what I'm going to do. I'm going to contact Geoff , and this time I'M putting the game on hold till we can meet and discuss this over a beer (or three). There is no reason why we don't get to know each other (only 26 miles between us) and chew over what we consider "gamey". A couple of hours should clear this up. Whadda ya think, sirs? [:)]

It's certainly your prerogative to put the game on hold (assuming that there *was* a game afoot) for whatever reason you desire. It's your game and you should do whatever makes you and your partner happy.

My opinion is that this is something that should be cleared up before embarking on a PBEM.

There is nothing actionable that has occurred to this point that should put the game on hold in my opinion. This smacks of an unnecessary and prospective wringing of hands and machinations where none is due.

Has Geoff gone 'carrier hunting' on turn one? Nope. Has he struck Saratoga at her San Diego berth? Nope. Has he magically teleported the entirety of KB to the Indian Ocean on turn one? Uh-uh.

Why doncha see how it plays out for a turn or two before putting a non-existent game on hold?

My thought was that the PBEM has been "on hold" since before Christmas. Rather then send countless emails , and making even more posts , many of which confuse more than clarify , why not just take a couple of days delay to allow a meeting? This PBEM may last years. Would not a personal meeting simplify and clear up a lot of misunderstandings, questions and ambiguities? I'm a big fan of "doing it right". So yeah , I honestly do think a meeting (and the brief delay to facilitate it) is not only warranted , but a damned good idea. [:)]

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve
I've had some very good points raised by people I truly respect and admire (Yourself included). And they are almost exclusively moral in nature. Here's what I'm going to do. I'm going to contact Geoff , and this time I'M putting the game on hold till we can meet and discuss this over a beer (or three). There is no reason why we don't get to know each other (only 26 miles between us) and chew over what we consider "gamey". A couple of hours should clear this up. Whadda ya think, sirs? [:)]

It's certainly your prerogative to put the game on hold (assuming that there *was* a game afoot) for whatever reason you desire. It's your game and you should do whatever makes you and your partner happy.

My opinion is that this is something that should be cleared up before embarking on a PBEM.

There is nothing actionable that has occurred to this point that should put the game on hold in my opinion. This smacks of an unnecessary and prospective wringing of hands and machinations where none is due.

Has Geoff gone 'carrier hunting' on turn one? Nope. Has he struck Saratoga at her San Diego berth? Nope. Has he magically teleported the entirety of KB to the Indian Ocean on turn one? Uh-uh.

Why doncha see how it plays out for a turn or two before putting a non-existent game on hold?

My thought was that the PBEM has been "on hold" since before Christmas. Rather then send countless emails , and making even more posts , many of which confuse more than clarify , why not just take a couple of days delay to allow a meeting? This PBEM may last years. Would not a personal meeting simplify and clear up a lot of misunderstandings, questions and ambiguities? I'm a big fan of "doing it right". So yeah , I honestly do think a meeting (and the brief delay to facilitate it) is not only warranted , but a damned good idea. [:)]

Steve-it's *always* a good idea to have a few beers with like-minded WiTP:AE bretheren and chew the fat. I'm jelus (TM) that I can't be there to participate.[8D]

Without an agenda, written minutes and secretary to take notes and promulgate MOUs, I wouldn't put too much credence on anything actionable coming of it though. As astute you are a student of human predilections and tendencies, even you will be unable to determine the nature of an opponent's moves based upon beer-infused conversation and banter.

It's amazing to me how many pages these threads (AARs?) have without even 1 day of action.

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

ORIGINAL: witpqs

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve

Geoff just emailed me and rambled something about not being able to do what he wants on the 1st turn because of something about not enough "OPS points". [&:]

He was probably talking about not being able to finish one of those 72 oz steaks and had to pay for the meal.

Is that it? He couldn't finish a 72 oz steak? Pussy. [:-]

...plus mashed potatoes and gravy!

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy




It's certainly your prerogative to put the game on hold (assuming that there *was* a game afoot) for whatever reason you desire. It's your game and you should do whatever makes you and your partner happy.

My opinion is that this is something that should be cleared up before embarking on a PBEM.

There is nothing actionable that has occurred to this point that should put the game on hold in my opinion. This smacks of an unnecessary and prospective wringing of hands and machinations where none is due.

Has Geoff gone 'carrier hunting' on turn one? Nope. Has he struck Saratoga at her San Diego berth? Nope. Has he magically teleported the entirety of KB to the Indian Ocean on turn one? Uh-uh.

Why doncha see how it plays out for a turn or two before putting a non-existent game on hold?

My thought was that the PBEM has been "on hold" since before Christmas. Rather then send countless emails , and making even more posts , many of which confuse more than clarify , why not just take a couple of days delay to allow a meeting? This PBEM may last years. Would not a personal meeting simplify and clear up a lot of misunderstandings, questions and ambiguities? I'm a big fan of "doing it right". So yeah , I honestly do think a meeting (and the brief delay to facilitate it) is not only warranted , but a damned good idea. [:)]

Steve-it's *always* a good idea to have a few beers with like-minded WiTP:AE bretheren and chew the fat. I'm jelus (TM) that I can't be there to participate.[8D]

Without an agenda, written minutes and secretary to take notes and promulgate MOUs, I wouldn't put too much credence on anything actionable coming of it though. As astute you are a student of human predilections and tendencies, even you will be unable to determine the nature of an opponent's moves based upon beer-infused conversation and banter.

I'm looking less to divine his strategic intentions than I am to asses his character and beliefs.

And of course you are always welcome. Maybe I should host a summit? There's an air show here in June. It's always easier to watch an air show when you live on the base.

The December 7th "surprise on" Japanese move can be either a boon or bane to the Allied player.

IRL, the attack on Pearl cemented the public opinion about the need for a war against the Japanese. There was no doubt about whether or not we should be isolationists on December 8. The Germans and Italians compounded the mistake by declaring war against us a few days later. They could have probably strung it out a few weeks / months, but they were kind of stupid there too.

What if the Japanese only attacked some distant imperial outposts West of the International Date Line? OK. So they blew up some bombers on Luzon and attacked Singapore. Do you think there would have been as much a blood thirsty cry for vengeance from the populace? Would a more 'sanitary' attack by Japan have somewhat constrained America's initial response? There's an argument there.

A "Philippines first" Japanese strike in the game is met with the same full-throated, petal-to-the-metal, ready-for-anything response that follows one on Pearl. Very different political realities that are painted with the same brush identically. Advantage Allies.

A December 8 start necessitates the first turn sinking of the POW and Repulse in the game, IIRC. Even though neither were engaged or sunk until several days later IRL. I've never understood the retention of this figment in the December 8 starts. So, Oklahoma, Arizona, POW and Repulse guaranteed sunk by December 8 on a December 8 start? From a points perspective, that's definitely the way to go for the Japanese player.

As you may recall, I consistently allow POW and Repulse to exit the area on turn one in my PBEMs. That's my "price" for freedom of action in striking the Philippines. I think that's pretty fair.

No, the December 8 start is no Allied panacea. It mixes in some political unreality with some military unrealities to accomplish it's 'fair' start. In introducing the coded fantasies, it detracts from player choice and innovation.

You could always go to The Hill for Italian. A neutral site. You can do that in March, April, May or June. Or "and"

ORIGINAL: Ol_Dog

You could always go to The Hill for Italian. A neutral site. You can do that in March, April, May or June. Or "and"

You can join us! Where in southern Illinois do you live?[&:] Maybe a spring summit might be possible. [:)]

I'm reading both sides here and it seems to me that Geoff is just experiencing some mechanical difficulties with the first turn magic moves. A face-to-face with anyone nearby is desirable though, at least to me. I've met one other forum member to date and all I can say is that its unfortunate that we've only been able to get together twice so far. I've recently spoken to one other member when he called after we exchanged numbers. After a lengthy phone conversation all I can say is we had a parallel life for a while. His was just a few years behind mine.

The three of us are trying to get together and see the Memorial Day air show here at Jones Beach. Hopefully plans will be cemented and the weather will cooperate.

I've been lucky with meeting members. Living in DC I got to meet two different fourmites on two occasions , and once in the DC summit I got to meet something like 10 (I don't recall the actual number) , then I held a summit in Omaha Nebraska and got to meet 3 others , one of whom (Chickenboy) later visited me , and then he showed up again in North Carolina when USS America held a summit and we all got to meet Historica. And then I got to meet yet another in Charlottesville VA. I've been lucky. And I'm thinking of doing a St Louis area summit in June when the airshow is here at Scott AFB. If anyone is interested let me know. I'd love to meet more of you. [:)][:)]

Meeting over beers prior to getting into a two-year relationship is good in any situation.

32 oz. is my max for steak. 72 would be a bridge too far.

Cheers,
CC

I am 50 miles East of Mid America Airport. Anytime after April 18th is a good time for WITPAE and good food.

ORIGINAL: Ol_Dog

I am 50 miles East of Mid America Airport. Anytime after April 18th is a good time for WITPAE and good food.

April 18 is an auspicious day for AFBs (Doolittle and Yamamoto).

14 hours here to there [:(]