Matrix Games Forums

ORIGINAL: PzB


I've thought about the Judy range issue for a while and sent an email to Andy.
To be honest I'm now in a limbo as the KB has lost much of its potency. I simply can't risk engaging the enemy since both 7 and 8 hex range now will find us at a severe disadvantage.
- I asked Andy what he would do if his SBDs suddenly had a 6(7) hex range.

I also agree with comments on drop tanks and regular range. All sources I've visited shows that Judy has more range than Val. An 8(10) normal range should be the defacto range.
Someone has FUBAR'ed big time here, almost a game breaker to downgrade to a 6(7) hex model at a critical time in the game. So I will probably halt this game for some days to think about the consequences.

I think the issue is the 500 kg bomb. There is some question as to the maximum range of the Judy when carrying this bomb. The Judy was a fairly small and light bomber and there is some doubt as to how far it could deliver this kind of bomb load. I think the considerations that went into reducing the range were well thought out (by people who know a lot more than I do).

The drop tanks are another matter. Just doing the math suggests that the total weight of the tanks and the added bomb would have made it near impossible for the Judy to get off a flight deck. I think this was clearer than the issue of the range with the only the 1,000 bomb.

Perhaps a range of 6/8 would be in order but I just don't know enough to say. The normal range of the later model Avengers is 6/7 as well. Of course, it gets drop tanks. But quite frankly, we are talking about a stage in the war when the Allies should start to have some serious operational advantages over the Japanese. However, we are stuck with this silly 7 vs 8 strike range until the last day of the war. Probably should be 8/7 in 42, 7/7 in 43 and change to 7/8 in favor of the Allies in 44. Or as you say, just make it 7/7.

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

ORIGINAL: PzB

Basically the Judy has always had an enormous range because they were equipped with drop tanks.
I don't think they used drop tanks while flying of carriers...so removing the drop tanks didn't matter too much since the max range for a carrier ac is 7-8 hexes anyway.
- So when the drop tanks dissappeared I didn't think much of it before I saw that normal range was set to 6 hexes with 7 as extended.

This is 1 hex less than the Val bomber.
I've checked many sources and the vast majority gives the Judy a longer normal range than the Val.
- The Japs did everything to provide their strike ac with the longers possible range so this makes perfect sense.

IF range had been reduced to less than that of the Val the Judy would have to use drop tanks.
Nerfing range AND removing drop tanks is a decision only AFBs could take from my point of view.
It completely disrupts game in progress balance like this one as mentioned by Pax.

Any Jap player will have to replan how to equip KB and keep it as a competitive force.
How on earth could I dare to risk a strike on Allied fleets near Line Islands when 2/3 of my strike force only can deliver an efficient attack from 6 hexes?
- I'd rather see they removed the 8 vs 7 hex strike advantage for Japan instead of nerfing the Judy.

This is of course not Andy's fault, but my annoyance with this issue is beyond words.

PzB,

I am only an occasional visitor to your AAR, but appreciate your leadership in all things Japanese. Fight on, man-BANZAI!

Since I am only an occasional visitor, can you summarize what borked your Judy production? Did you and Andy just upgrade to a beta patch?

No this is a result of the last official patch which had a db change in it. The beta is only EXE, no data changes in it.

ORIGINAL: crsutton

ORIGINAL: PzB


I've thought about the Judy range issue for a while and sent an email to Andy.
To be honest I'm now in a limbo as the KB has lost much of its potency. I simply can't risk engaging the enemy since both 7 and 8 hex range now will find us at a severe disadvantage.
- I asked Andy what he would do if his SBDs suddenly had a 6(7) hex range.

I also agree with comments on drop tanks and regular range. All sources I've visited shows that Judy has more range than Val. An 8(10) normal range should be the defacto range.
Someone has FUBAR'ed big time here, almost a game breaker to downgrade to a 6(7) hex model at a critical time in the game. So I will probably halt this game for some days to think about the consequences.

I think the issue is the 500 kg bomb. There is some question as to the maximum range of the Judy when carrying this bomb. The Judy was a fairly small and light bomber and there is some doubt as to how far it could deliver this kind of bomb load. I think the considerations that went into reducing the range were well thought out (by people who know a lot more than I do).

The drop tanks are another matter. Just doing the math suggests that the total weight of the tanks and the added bomb would have made it near impossible for the Judy to get off a flight deck. I think this was clearer than the issue of the range with the only the 1,000 bomb {500kg = 1,100lbs}.

Perhaps a range of 6/8 would be in order but I just don't know enough to say. The normal range of the later model Avengers is 6/7 as well. Of course, it gets drop tanks. But quite frankly, we are talking about a stage in the war when the Allies should start to have some serious operational advantages over the Japanese. However, we are stuck with this silly 7 vs 8 strike range until the last day of the war. Probably should be 8/7 in 42, 7/7 in 43 and change to 7/8 in favor of the Allies in 44. Or as you say, just make it 7/7.

Ok thought it was the patch, but last official update then! [:)]

Here is a screen of a Judy D4Y1 recon with drop tanks.
You got 2 x 330 liter drop tanks. This means 2 wing tanks...

If you reduce these tanks to 2 x 150 liter plus one 250 kg center line bomb the weight would be the same and extended range should easily be in the 8-10 hex range, no?

The ability to choose ordnance loads is a critical one.
Hard wiring it first to one setting and then changing everything later on mess up all ongoing games that needs a patch since a Jap player has to plan his production in advance.

Unfortunately I've never been able to get involved in the discussions on the air - sea threads, I usually disagree to much with the decisions[8|]

The much discussed max strike range of 7 hexes for Allies and 8 hexes for Japan is a different but related issuse that strongly influence Jap production planning.
I would sacrifice a 500kg bomb load on my dive bombers to get that 1 hex range advantage. If both sides had a max strike range of 7 hexes I would do my outmost to equip my carriers with
a dive bomber model that got this range.

In this game the 8 hex strike range for Japan has now been nullified as 2/3 of KBs strike ac can only carry a 250kg bomb to 7 hexes.
Not much value in launching only fighters and torpedo bombers from 8 hexes.

So if we go on with this new game model the Line Islands will have to do without KB support and I will have to think anew about how to use the KB.

Btw: Thx for the support and input on this issue. Also apologize for the flaming but this was a most unwanted surprise that had slipped beyond my radar and it first became visible at the worst possible moment; in the middle of a major engagement in the Central Pacific!

ORIGINAL: PzB

The Grace is such a capable ac that if I had to choose between these evils I
would probably keep Val's and greatly resarch the Grace to introduce it from 6/44 instead of 8/44.

Starting from scratch it would probably be possible to overcome these "issues" in a civilized way.

Yep, same thoughts that I have ...

ORIGINAL: PzB
In this particular game it is not so since I'm stuck with a full load of D4Y1's and 2s.

And this is the real rub ... ouch.

On the flip side, they are no "worse" than the Val's that you would plan to use ... just wasted R&D ... and all the effort expended to re-equip all your squadrons.

Chin up. If anyone can recover from the debacle, it will be you. Lesser men like me would already be deep into their bottle of Laphroaig ... [;)]

ORIGINAL: PzB

Btw: Thx for the support and input on this issue. Also apologize for the flaming but this was a most unwanted surprise that had slipped beyond my radar and it first became visible at the worst possible moment; in the middle of a major engagement in the Central Pacific!

That wasn't flaming, simply venting. [;)] Venting is healthy for the soul. [:D]

Here's the picture; do you spot the ugly duckling?
- Would the Japs put together a strike team were only 2 out of 3 could play ball?

I'm only dipping into my Heineken storage, but thx Pax [:D]
We can still engage Allies efficiently from 7 hexes...with 250kg bombs.
- Being in an inferior position quality and quantitative wise loosing the 500kg bomb and the 8 hex range takes away the incentive we had for using the KB offensively against Allied flets at Line Islands [:(]

I have to say I am as perplexed as you are.  I am sure the IJN intended the Judy to have 10/12 strike range.  What the experts are saying is that the IJN did NOT achieve their goal.  I have to defer to their expertise, although I am as stunned as you are ...

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

ORIGINAL: PzB

Basically the Judy has always had an enormous range because they were equipped with drop tanks.
I don't think they used drop tanks while flying of carriers...so removing the drop tanks didn't matter too much since the max range for a carrier ac is 7-8 hexes anyway.
- So when the drop tanks dissappeared I didn't think much of it before I saw that normal range was set to 6 hexes with 7 as extended.

This is 1 hex less than the Val bomber.
I've checked many sources and the vast majority gives the Judy a longer normal range than the Val.
- The Japs did everything to provide their strike ac with the longers possible range so this makes perfect sense.

IF range had been reduced to less than that of the Val the Judy would have to use drop tanks.
Nerfing range AND removing drop tanks is a decision only AFBs could take from my point of view.
It completely disrupts game in progress balance like this one as mentioned by Pax.

Any Jap player will have to replan how to equip KB and keep it as a competitive force.
How on earth could I dare to risk a strike on Allied fleets near Line Islands when 2/3 of my strike force only can deliver an efficient attack from 6 hexes?
- I'd rather see they removed the 8 vs 7 hex strike advantage for Japan instead of nerfing the Judy.

This is of course not Andy's fault, but my annoyance with this issue is beyond words.

PzB,

I am only an occasional visitor to your AAR, but appreciate your leadership in all things Japanese. Fight on, man-BANZAI!

Since I am only an occasional visitor, can you summarize what borked your Judy production? Did you and Andy just upgrade to a beta patch?

No this is a result of the last official patch which had a db change in it. The beta is only EXE, no data changes in it.

This must only affect NEW STARTS or those wherein the players accept the database changes under the 1106'i' patch then. I've just starting using D4Y1 Judys in my game (May 1943) which was started several patches ago, but no we have not updated the database changes. They are able to carry 500kg bombs to range =7.

This is a strong argument for not changing the Database for games in progress. We'll not be 'upgrading' to any other patches or betas any time soon.

Yes, db changes to a game in progress are tricky.  I won't pretend to understand all the nuances and ins and out.  And it might have been the patch prior to 1106i ... I just remember the bruhaha when the change was made.  Since then I've been either playing my mod or Downfall, and so have pretty much forgotten all about this ... [:(]

Here's the artist impression of the Judy...with 2 wing mounted drop tanks.
Drop tank size was't fixed, was it?

1 centerline bomb, either 250 og 500kg plus a max range depending on either max load or 250kg plus max size drop tanks.

Yes, patching has many consequences..but this can be overcome if one's aware of them.
Still, the Judy nerf is a decision I will not forgive them for anytime soon!!!

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

I have to say I am as perplexed as you are.  I am sure the IJN intended the Judy to have 10/12 strike range.  What the experts are saying is that the IJN did NOT achieve their goal.  I have to defer to their expertise, although I am as stunned as you are ...

I suspect that if range had been the key driver it would have been a larger aircraft - the B7A (which makes 13/10) is a 4 ton aircraft empty, while the D3A and D4Y are both about 2&1/2. Jill is about 3t and manages a longer range, but then I imagine without needing to be bulked up for dive-bombing you can squeeze a lot more fuel into there. Judy is actually smaller than Val - given which, twice the bombload and 100mph or so of extra speed on the same range starts to look bloody impressive.

I'm going to register at the Combined Fleet forum and ask why they're providing erronous range information for the Judy [:D]

ORIGINAL: PzB

I'm going to register at the Combined Fleet forum and ask why they're providing erronous range information for the Judy [:D]

[:D][:D][:D]

Well, struggling on...will have to withdraw KB from Central Pacific.
We're now a behind the lines force until we can get the Judy issue straightened out.

Andy tried another attack on Xmas but something didn't quite work out as planned, partial at best.
No more troops were unloaded either, accordingly all were ashore after day 1!?

Perhaps Murphy Island will continue to be a pain in the butt on it's own! [:)]

Our midgets and PT boats score some successes, but that's about it.


AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR Apr 15, 44

Surface Combat

Night Time Surface Combat, near Christmas Island at 174,141, Range 12,000 Yards

Japanese Ships
MTB G-553
MTB G-554
MTB G-555

Allied Ships
APD Belknap
APD Barr
DMS Hamilton
DMS Howard
DMS Chandler
AM Requisite
AM Impeccable
AM Oracle
AM Chief
AM Competent
AM Triumph
AM Velocity
AM Salute, heavy damage
AM Buoyant
APA Henderson
APA James O'Hara, Shell hits 3, Torpedo hits 1, heavy fires
APA Sumter
APA La Salle
APA Herald of Morning
AK Autauga
AKA Algol
AKA Thuban
AKA Virgo
LSV Catskill
LSD Ashland
LSD Belle Grove
LSD Epping Forest
LSD Lindenwald
LSD Oak Hill
LST-16
LST-17
LST-18
LST-19, on fire
LST-20
LST-21
LST-22
LST-23
LST-24
LST-25
LST-26
LST-28
LST-71
LST-72
LST-73
LST-74
LST-75
LST-78
LST-81
LST-82
LST-83
LST-84
LST-85
LST-87
LST-88
LST-124
LST-126
LST-166
LST-456, and is sunk

Maximum visibility in Clear Conditions and 50% moonlight: 12,000 yards
Range closes to 28,000 yards...
Range closes to 26,000 yards...
Range closes to 24,000 yards...
Range closes to 22,000 yards...
Range closes to 20,000 yards...
Range closes to 18,000 yards...
CONTACT: Allies radar detects Japanese task force at 18,000 yards
Range closes to 16,000 yards...
Range closes to 14,000 yards...
Range closes to 12,000 yards...
CONTACT: Japanese lookouts spot Allied task force at 12,000 yards
CONTACT: Allied lookouts spot Japanese task force at 12,000 yards
APA Herald of Morning , APA La Salle , APA Sumter ,
APA James O'Hara , APA Henderson , AKA Virgo ,
AKA Thuban , AKA Algol , LSD Oak Hill ,
LSD Lindenwald , LSD Epping Forest , LSD Belle Grove ,
LSD Ashland , LSV Catskill , AK Autauga ,
LST-481 , LST-477 , LST-476 ,
LST-474 , LST-473 , LST-471 ,
LST-470 , LST-469 , LST-468 ,
LST-467 , LST-466 , LST-465 ,
LST-464 , LST-463 , LST-462 ,
LST-461 , LST-460 , LST-459 ,
LST-458 , LST-457 , LST-456 ,
LST-454 , LST-452 , LST-451 ,
LST-450 , LST-449 , LST-448 ,
LST-447 , LST-218 , LST-216 ,
LST-215 , LST-180 , LST-179 ,
LST-177 , LST-176 , LST-175 ,
LST-169 , LST-167 , LST-166 ,
LST-126 , LST-124 , LST-88 ,
LST-87 , LST-85 , LST-84 ,
LST-83 , LST-82 , LST-81 ,
LST-78 , LST-75 , LST-74 ,
LST-73 , LST-72 , LST-71 ,
LST-28 , LST-26 , LST-25 ,
LST-24 , LST-23 , LST-22 ,
LST-21 , LST-20 , LST-19 ,
LST-18 , LST-17 , LST-16 ,
LCI-21 , LCI-66 , LCI-65 ,
LCI-64 screened from combat
- escorted by AM Buoyant , AM Competent
DMS Hamilton engages MTB G-553 at 12,000 yards
Range closes to 10,000 yards
APA James O'Hara collides with LST-454 at 174 , 141
APA Herald of Morning , APA La Salle , APA Sumter ,
APA James O'Hara , APA Henderson , AKA Virgo ,
AKA Thuban , AKA Algol , LSD Oak Hill ,
LSD Lindenwald , LSD Epping Forest , LSD Belle Grove ,
LSD Ashland , LSV Catskill , AK Autauga ,
LST-481 , LST-477 , LST-476 ,
LST-474 , LST-473 , LST-471 ,
LST-470 , LST-469 , LST-468 screened from combat
- escorted by DMS Chandler , DMS Howard , DMS Hamilton ,
AM Buoyant , AM Velocity , AM Triumph ,
AM Competent , AM Chief
Range closes to 8,000 yards
APA Herald of Morning , APA La Salle , APA Sumter ,
APA James O'Hara , APA Henderson , AKA Virgo ,
AKA Thuban , AKA Algol , LSD Oak Hill ,
LSD Lindenwald , LSD Epping Forest , LSD Belle Grove ,
LSD Ashland , LSV Catskill , AK Autauga ,
LST-481 , LST-477 , LST-476 ,
LST-474 , LST-473 , LST-471 ,
LST-470 , LST-469 , LST-468 ,
LST-467 , LST-466 , LST-465 ,
LST-464 , LST-463 , LST-462 ,
LST-461 , LST-460 , LST-459 screened from combat
- escorted by DMS Chandler , DMS Howard , AM Buoyant ,
AM Salute , AM Competent , AM Chief ,
AM Oracle
Range closes to 6,000 yards
APA Herald of Morning , APA La Salle , APA Sumter ,
APA James O'Hara , APA Henderson , AKA Virgo ,
AKA Thuban , AKA Algol , LSD Oak Hill ,
LSD Lindenwald , LSD Epping Forest , LSD Belle Grove ,
LSD Ashland , LSV Catskill , AK Autauga ,
LST-481 , LST-477 , LST-476 ,
LST-474 , LST-473 , LST-471 ,
LST-470 , LST-469 , LST-468 ,
LST-467 , LST-466 , LST-465 ,
LST-464 screened from combat
- escorted by DMS Chandler , DMS Howard , DMS Hamilton ,
AM Buoyant , AM Salute , AM Triumph ,
AM Chief , AM Oracle
MTB G-553 engages APA James O'Hara at 6,000 yards
Range increases to 7,000 yards
APA Herald of Morning , APA La Salle , APA Sumter ,
APA James O'Hara , APA Henderson , AKA Virgo ,
AKA Thuban , AKA Algol , LSD Oak Hill ,
LSD Lindenwald , LSD Epping Forest , LSD Belle Grove ,
LSD Ashland , LSV Catskill , AK Autauga ,
LST-481 , LST-477 , LST-476 ,
LST-474 , LST-473 , LST-471 ,
LST-470 , LST-469 , LST-468 ,
LST-467 , LST-466 , LST-465 ,
LST-464 , LST-463 , LST-462 ,
LST-461 , LST-460 , LST-459 ,
LST-458 , LST-457 , LST-456 ,
LST-454 , LST-452 , LST-451 ,
LST-450 , LST-449 , LST-448 ,
LST-447 , LST-218 , LST-216 ,
LST-215 , LST-180 , LST-179 ,
LST-177 , LST-176 , LST-175 ,
LST-169 , LST-167 , LST-166 ,
LST-126 , LST-124 , LST-88 ,
LST-87 , LST-85 , LST-84 ,
LST-83 , LST-82 , LST-81 ,
LST-78 , LST-75 , LST-74 ,
LST-73 , LST-72 , LST-71 ,
LST-28 , LST-26 , LST-25 ,
LST-24 , LST-23 , LST-22 ,
LST-21 , LST-20 screened from combat
- escorted by DMS Howard , DMS Hamilton , AM Triumph
DMS Chandler engages MTB G-555 at 7,000 yards
MTB G-553 engages APA James O'Hara at 7,000 yards
Range increases to 8,000 yards
LST-457 collides with LST-454 at 174 , 141
LST-456 collides with LST-454 at 174 , 141
APA Herald of Morning , APA La Salle , APA Sumter ,
APA James O'Hara , APA Henderson , AKA Virgo ,
AKA Thuban , AKA Algol , LSD Oak Hill ,
LSD Lindenwald , LSD Epping Forest , LSD Belle Grove ,
LSD Ashland , LSV Catskill , AK Autauga ,
LST-481 , LST-477 , LST-476 ,
LST-474 , LST-473 , LST-471 ,
LST-470 , LST-469 , LST-468 ,
LST-467 , LST-466 screened from combat
- escorted by DMS Howard , DMS Hamilton , AM Buoyant ,
AM Salute , AM Velocity , AM Triumph ,
AM Competent , AM Oracle
DMS Chandler engages MTB G-555 at 8,000 yards
AM Impeccable engages MTB G-555 at 8,000 yards
APA Herald of Morning , APA La Salle , APA Sumter ,
APA James O'Hara , APA Henderson , AKA Virgo ,
AKA Thuban , AKA Algol , LSD Oak Hill ,
LSD Lindenwald , LSD Epping Forest , LSD Belle Grove ,
LSD Ashland , LSV Catskill , AK Autauga ,
LST-481 , LST-477 , LST-476 ,
LST-474 , LST-473 , LST-471 ,
LST-470 , LST-469 , LST-468 ,
LST-467 , LST-466 , LST-465 ,
LST-464 , LST-463 , LST-462 ,
LST-461 , LST-460 screened from combat
- escorted by DMS Chandler , DMS Howard , AM Buoyant ,
AM Velocity , AM Triumph , AM Chief ,
AM Oracle
DMS Hamilton engages MTB G-555 at 8,000 yards
APD Belknap engages MTB G-554 at 8,000 yards
MTB G-553 engages APA James O'Hara at 8,000 yards
Range closes to 7,000 yards
APA Herald of Morning , APA La Salle , APA Sumter ,
APA James O'Hara , APA Henderson , AKA Virgo ,
AKA Thuban , AKA Algol , LSD Oak Hill ,
LSD Lindenwald , LSD Epping Forest , LSD Belle Grove screened from combat
- escorted by DMS Chandler , DMS Howard , DMS Hamilton ,
AM Buoyant , AM Salute , AM Velocity ,
AM Triumph , AM Competent , AM Chief ,
AM Oracle
MTB G-555 engages APA James O'Hara at 7,000 yards
MTB G-553 engages APA James O'Hara at 7,000 yards
Range closes to 5,000 yards
AM Salute collides with LST-454 at 174 , 141
APA Herald of Morning , APA La Salle , APA Sumter ,
APA James O'Hara , APA Henderson , AKA Virgo ,
AKA Thuban , AKA Algol , LSD Oak Hill ,
LSD Lindenwald , LSD Epping Forest , LSD Belle Grove ,
LSD Ashland , LSV Catskill , AK Autauga ,
LST-481 , LST-477 , LST-476 ,
LST-474 , LST-473 , LST-471 ,
LST-470 , LST-469 , LST-468 ,
LST-467 , LST-466 , LST-465 ,
LST-464 , LST-463 , LST-462 ,
LST-461 , LST-460 , LST-459 ,
LST-458 , LST-457 , LST-456 ,
LST-454 , LST-452 , LST-451 ,
LST-450 , LST-449 , LST-448 ,
LST-447 , LST-218 , LST-216 ,
LST-215 , LST-180 , LST-179 ,
LST-177 , LST-176 , LST-175 ,
LST-169 , LST-167 , LST-166 ,
LST-126 , LST-124 , LST-88 ,
LST-87 , LST-85 , LST-84 ,
LST-83 screened from combat
- escorted by DMS Chandler , AM Buoyant , AM Velocity ,
AM Competent
DMS Howard engages MTB G-555 at 5,000 yards
DMS Hamilton engages MTB G-555 at 5,000 yards
AM Salute engages MTB G-555 at 5,000 yards
Range closes to 2,000 yards
LST-448 collides with LST-456 at 174 , 141
LST-17 collides with LST-456 at 174 , 141
APA Herald of Morning , APA La Salle , APA Sumter ,
APA James O'Hara , APA Henderson , AKA Virgo ,
AKA Thuban , AKA Algol , LSD Oak Hill ,
LSD Lindenwald , LSD Epping Forest , LSD Belle Grove ,
LSD Ashland , LSV Catskill , AK Autauga ,
LST-481 , LST-477 , LST-476 ,
LST-474 , LST-473 , LST-471 ,
LST-470 screened from combat
- escorted by DMS Howard , DMS Hamilton , AM Buoyant ,
AM Salute , AM Velocity , AM Triumph ,
AM Competent , AM Chief , AM Oracle
MTB G-555 engages APA James O'Hara at 2,000 yards
MTB G-553 engages APA James O'Hara at 2,000 yards
LST-215 collides with LST-457 at 174 , 141
LST-74 collides with LST-457 at 174 , 141
LST-17 collides with LST-457 at 174 , 141
APA Herald of Morning , APA La Salle , APA Sumter ,
APA James O'Hara , APA Henderson , AKA Virgo ,
AKA Thuban , AKA Algol , LSD Oak Hill ,
LSD Lindenwald , LSD Epping Forest , LSD Belle Grove ,
LSD Ashland , LSV Catskill , AK Autauga ,
LST-481 , LST-477 , LST-476 ,
LST-474 , LST-473 , LST-471 ,
LST-470 , LST-469 , LST-468 ,
LST-467 , LST-466 , LST-465 ,
LST-464 , LST-463 , LST-462 ,
LST-461 , LST-460 , LST-459 ,
LST-458 , LST-457 , LST-454 ,
LST-452 , LST-451 , LST-450 ,
LST-449 , LST-448 , LST-447 ,
LST-218 , LST-216 , LST-215 ,
LST-180 , LST-179 , LST-177 ,
LST-176 , LST-175 , LST-169 ,
LST-167 , LST-166 , LST-126 ,
LST-124 , LST-88 , LST-87 ,
LST-85 , LST-84 , LST-83 ,
LST-82 , LST-81 , LST-78 ,
LST-75 , LST-74 , LST-73 ,
LST-72 , LST-71 , LST-28 ,
LST-26 , LST-25 screened from combat
- escorted by DMS Howard , DMS Hamilton , AM Velocity
MTB G-555 engages APA James O'Hara at 2,000 yards
AM Buoyant engages MTB G-555 at 2,000 yards
MTB G-553 engages APA James O'Hara at 2,000 yards
Range increases to 6,000 yards
AM Requisite collides with LST-454 at 174 , 141
LST-469 collides with LST-454 at 174 , 141
APA Herald of Morning , APA La Salle , APA Sumter ,
APA James O'Hara , APA Henderson , AKA Virgo ,
AKA Thuban , AKA Algol , LSD Oak Hill ,
LSD Lindenwald , LSD Epping Forest , LSD Belle Grove ,
LSD Ashland , LSV Catskill , AK Autauga ,
LST-481 , LST-477 , LST-476 ,
LST-474 , LST-473 , LST-471 ,
LST-470 , LST-469 , LST-468 ,
LST-467 , LST-466 , LST-465 screened from combat
- escorted by DMS Chandler , DMS Howard , DMS Hamilton ,
AM Buoyant , AM Salute , AM Velocity ,
AM Competent , AM Chief
MTB G-555 engages APA James O'Hara at 6,000 yards
MTB G-555 engages AM Oracle at 6,000 yards
Range increases to 10,000 yards
APD Belknap collides with LST-454 at 174 , 141
APA Herald of Morning , APA La Salle , APA Sumter ,
APA James O'Hara , APA Henderson , AKA Virgo ,
AKA Thuban , AKA Algol , LSD Oak Hill ,
LSD Lindenwald , LSD Epping Forest , LSD Belle Grove ,
LSD Ashland , LSV Catskill , AK Autauga ,
LST-481 , LST-477 , LST-476 ,
LST-474 , LST-473 , LST-471 ,
LST-470 , LST-469 , LST-468 ,
LST-467 , LST-466 , LST-465 ,
LST-464 , LST-463 , LST-462 ,
LST-461 , LST-460 , LST-459 ,
LST-458 , LST-457 screened from combat
- escorted by DMS Chandler , DMS Howard , DMS Hamilton ,
AM Buoyant , AM Salute , AM Velocity ,
AM Oracle
Range increases to 14,000 yards
AM Triumph collides with LST-454 at 174 , 141
LST-447 collides with LST-457 at 174 , 141
APA Herald of Morning , APA La Salle , APA Sumter ,
APA James O'Hara , APA Henderson , AKA Virgo ,
AKA Thuban , AKA Algol , LSD Oak Hill ,
LSD Lindenwald , LSD Epping Forest , LSD Belle Grove ,
LSD Ashland , LSV Catskill , AK Autauga ,
LST-481 , LST-477 , LST-476 ,
LST-474 , LST-473 , LST-471 ,
LST-470 , LST-469 , LST-468 ,
LST-467 , LST-466 , LST-465 ,
LST-464 , LST-463 , LST-462 ,
LST-461 , LST-460 , LST-459 ,
LST-458 , LST-457 , LST-454 ,
LST-452 , LST-451 , LST-450 ,
LST-449 , LST-448 , LST-447 ,
LST-218 , LST-216 , LST-215 ,
LST-180 , LST-179 , LST-177 ,
LST-176 , LST-175 , LST-169 ,
LST-167 , LST-166 , LST-126 ,
LST-124 , LST-88 screened from combat
- escorted by DMS Chandler , AM Salute , AM Triumph ,
AM Competent
MTB G-555 engages DMS Howard at 14,000 yards
DMS Hamilton engages MTB G-555 at 14,000 yards
AM Buoyant engages MTB G-555 at 14,000 yards
Task forces break off...
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Time Surface Combat, near Christmas Island at 175,140, Range 12,000 Yards

Japanese Ships
MTB G-553
MTB G-554
MTB G-555

Allied Ships
BB Alabama
BB Iowa
DD Hall
DD Halligan
DD Lewis Hancock
DD Haraden
DD Harrison
DMS Forrest
DMS Hobson
DMS Ellyson

Maximum visibility in Clear Conditions and 50% moonlight: 12,000 yards
Range closes to 28,000 yards...

Task forces break off...
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Sub Attacks

Submarine attack near Rangoon at 54,53

Japanese Ships
SSX Ha-53

Allied Ships
xAK Joseph Simon, Torpedo hits 1, heavy damage

xAK Joseph Simon is sighted by SSX Ha-53
SSX Ha-53 launches 2 torpedoes at xAK Joseph Simon
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ASW attack near Christmas Island at 174,141

Japanese Ships
SS I-10, hits 16, heavy damage

Allied Ships
DE Steele
AP Gen. J.R.Brooke
AP William Ward Burrows
AK Grumium
AK Draco
DE Wyman
DE Stadtfeld

SS I-10 launches 4 torpedoes at DE Steele
DE Wyman fails to find sub and abandons search
DE Steele fails to find sub and abandons search
DE Stadtfeld fails to find sub, continues to search...
DE Stadtfeld attacking submerged sub ....
DE Stadtfeld fails to find sub, continues to search...
DE Stadtfeld fails to find sub, continues to search...
DE Stadtfeld fails to find sub, continues to search...
DE Stadtfeld fails to find sub, continues to search...
Escort abandons search for sub
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
ASW attack near Christmas Island at 174,141

Japanese Ships
SS I-159, hits 40, heavy damage

Allied Ships
AP Gen. J.R.Brooke
AP William Ward Burrows
AK Grumium
AK Draco
DE Wyman
DE Steele

SS I-159 is sighted by escort
DE Wyman attacking submerged sub ....
DE Steele attacking submerged sub ....
Sounds of submarine breaking up detected!
Escort abandons search for sub
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Bombardments

Night Naval bombardment of Christmas Island at 174,141

Allied Ships
BB Iowa
BB Alabama

BB Iowa firing at Christmas Island
OS2U-3 Kingfisher acting as spotter for BB Alabama
BB Alabama firing at 54th Division
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Invasions

Invasion Support action off Christmas Island (174,141)
Defensive Guns engage approaching landing force

57 Coastal gun shots fired in defense.

Allied Ships
AK Crater, Shell hits 4, on fire
DE Steele
DE Stadtfeld
CA Australia
AK Arided, Shell hits 1, on fire
AP Gen. J.R.Brooke

DE Steele firing to suppress enemy battery at 10,000 yards
DE Stadtfeld firing to suppress enemy battery at 10,000 yards
12.7cm 3YT DP Gun Battery engaging AK Crater at 10,000 yards
DE Steele firing to suppress enemy battery at 10,000 yards
20cm 41YT CD Gun Battery engaging AK Arided at 10,000 yards
DE Steele firing to suppress enemy battery at 10,000 yards
20cm 41YT CD Gun Battery engaging AK Crater at 10,000 yards
DE Steele firing to suppress enemy battery at 10,000 yards
14cm 3YT CD Gun Battery engaging AK Crater at 10,000 yards
DE Steele firing to suppress enemy battery at 10,000 yards
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Air Combat

Morning Air attack on 3rd IJN Special Coastal Gun Battalion, at 174,141 (Christmas Island)
Weather in hex: Light cloud

Raid detected at 80 NM, estimated altitude 16,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 34 minutes


Allied aircraft
Avenger II x 24
Barracuda II x 22
Corsair II x 56
F4U-1A Corsair x 166
F6F-3 Hellcat x 301
SB2C-1C Helldiver x 236
TBF-1 Avenger x 9
TBM-1C Avenger x 268

Allied aircraft losses
SB2C-1C Helldiver: 5 damaged
TBM-1C Avenger: 4 damaged

Japanese ground losses:
527 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 25 disabled
Non Combat: 1 destroyed, 32 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 4 disabled
Guns lost 15 (2 destroyed, 13 disabled)
Vehicles lost 17 (1 destroyed, 16 disabled)

Also attacking 54th Division ...
Also attacking 41st Infantry Regiment ...
Also attacking 19th Army ...
Also attacking 80th JAAF AF Bn ...
Also attacking 18th Naval Guard Unit ...
Also attacking 18th Tank Regiment ...
Also attacking 3rd IJN Special Coastal Gun Battalion ...
Also attacking 4th Fleet ...
Also attacking 144th Infantry RCT /1 ...
Also attacking 3rd IJN Special Coastal Gun Battalion ...
Also attacking 49th JNAF AF Unit ...
Also attacking 53rd Construction Battalion ...
Also attacking 3rd IJN Special Coastal Gun Battalion ...
Also attacking 4th Air Division ...
Also attacking 56th JNAF AF Unit ...
Also attacking 23rd Medium Field Artillery Regiment ...
Also attacking 3rd IJN Special Coastal Gun Battalion ...
Also attacking Yokosuka 3rd SNLF ...
Also attacking 3rd IJN Special Coastal Gun Battalion ...
Also attacking 5th JAAF AF Bn ...
Also attacking 54th Division ...
Also attacking 12th Engineer Regiment ...
Also attacking 41st Infantry Regiment ...
Also attacking 3rd IJN Special Coastal Gun Battalion ...
Also attacking 41st Infantry Regiment ...
Also attacking 3rd IJN Special Coastal Gun Battalion ...
Also attacking 54th Division ...
Also attacking 41st Infantry Regiment ...
Also attacking 19th Army ...
Also attacking 80th JAAF AF Bn ...
Also attacking 18th Naval Guard Unit ...
Also attacking 18th Tank Regiment ...
Also attacking 3rd IJN Special Coastal Gun Battalion ...
Also attacking 4th Fleet ...
Also attacking 3rd IJN Special Coastal Gun Battalion ...
Also attacking 49th JNAF AF Unit ...
Also attacking 53rd Construction Battalion ...
Also attacking 3rd IJN Special Coastal Gun Battalion ...
Also attacking 4th Air Division ...
Also attacking 56th JNAF AF Unit ...
Also attacking 23rd Medium Field Artillery Regiment ...
Also attacking 3rd IJN Special Coastal Gun Battalion ...
Also attacking 54th Division ...
Also attacking 41st Infantry Regiment ...
Also attacking 19th Army ...
Also attacking 80th JAAF AF Bn ...
Also attacking 18th Naval Guard Unit ...
Also attacking 18th Tank Regiment ...
Also attacking 3rd IJN Special Coastal Gun Battalion ...
Also attacking 4th Fleet ...
Also attacking 3rd IJN Special Coastal Gun Battalion ...
Also attacking 54th Division ...
Also attacking 19th Army ...
Also attacking 18th Naval Guard Unit ...
Also attacking 18th Tank Regiment ...
Also attacking 54th Division ...
Also attacking 41st Infantry Regiment ...
Also attacking 19th Army ...
Also attacking 80th JAAF AF Bn ...
Also attacking 18th Naval Guard Unit ...
Also attacking 18th Tank Regiment ...
Also attacking 144th Infantry RCT /1 ...
Also attacking 3rd IJN Special Coastal Gun Battalion ...
Also attacking Yokosuka 3rd SNLF ...
Also attacking 3rd IJN Special Coastal Gun Battalion ...
Also attacking 5th JAAF AF Bn ...
Also attacking 54th Division ...
Also attacking 12th Engineer Regiment ...
Also attacking 41st Infantry Regiment ...
Also attacking 3rd IJN Special Coastal Gun Battalion ...
Also attacking 41st Infantry Regiment ...
Also attacking 3rd IJN Special Coastal Gun Battalion ...
Also attacking 54th Division ...
Also attacking 41st Infantry Regiment ...
Also attacking 19th Army ...
Also attacking 18th Naval Guard Unit ...
Also attacking 18th Tank Regiment ...
Also attacking 3rd IJN Special Coastal Gun Battalion ...
Also attacking 4th Fleet ...
Also attacking 3rd IJN Special Coastal Gun Battalion ...
Also attacking 49th JNAF AF Unit ...
Also attacking 53rd Construction Battalion ...
Also attacking 3rd IJN Special Coastal Gun Battalion ...
Also attacking 4th Air Division ...
Also attacking 56th JNAF AF Unit ...
Also attacking 23rd Medium Field Artillery Regiment ...
Also attacking 3rd IJN Special Coastal Gun Battalion ...
Also attacking 41st Infantry Regiment ...
Also attacking 19th Army ...
Also attacking 80th JAAF AF Bn ...
Also attacking 18th Naval Guard Unit ...
Also attacking 3rd IJN Special Coastal Gun Battalion ...
Also attacking 4th Fleet ...
Also attacking 3rd IJN Special Coastal Gun Battalion ...
Also attacking 54th Division ...
Also attacking 19th Army ...
Also attacking 18th Naval Guard Unit ...
Also attacking 18th Tank Regiment ...
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on Christmas Island , at 174,141
Weather in hex: Light cloud

Raid detected at 78 NM, estimated altitude 12,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 24 minutes

Allied aircraft
B-29-1 Superfort x 61

Allied aircraft losses
B-29-1 Superfort: 4 damaged

Japanese ground losses:
19 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 1 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 1 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 1 disabled

Airbase hits 5
Airbase supply hits 1
Runway hits 20
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on Christmas Island , at 174,141
Weather in hex: Light cloud

Raid detected at 61 NM, estimated altitude 14,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 19 minutes

Allied aircraft
B-29-1 Superfort x 10

Allied aircraft losses
B-29-1 Superfort: 2 damaged

Airbase hits 2
Runway hits 11

Aircraft Attacking:
10 x B-29-1 Superfort bombing from 11000 feet *
Airfield Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ground Combat

Ground combat at Christmas Island (174,141)
Japanese Bombardment attack

Attacking force 18546 troops, 284 guns, 40 vehicles, Assault Value = 710
Defending force 36243 troops, 1394 guns, 756 vehicles, Assault Value = 1704

Japanese ground losses:
57 casualties reported
Squads: 1 destroyed, 8 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 2 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Guns lost 2 (1 destroyed, 1 disabled)

Allied ground losses:
Vehicles lost 2 (1 destroyed, 1 disabled)

Assaulting units:
18th Tank Regiment
Sasebo 6th SNLF
41st Infantry Regiment
Yokosuka 3rd SNLF
54th Division
12th Engineer Regiment
18th Naval Guard Unit
144th Infantry RCT /1
11th RF Gun Battalion
56th JNAF AF Unit
4th Air Division
4th Fleet
3rd IJN Special Coastal Gun Battalion
26th Air Defense AA Regiment
19th Army
49th JNAF AF Unit
53rd Construction Battalion
80th JAAF AF Bn
23rd Medium Field Artillery Regiment
15th JNAF AF Unit
5th JAAF AF Bn
6th Naval Const Bn /2

Defending units:
627th Tank Destroyer Battalion
3rd Marine Div /14
37th Infantry Division
43rd Infantry Div /1
6th Infantry Division
22nd Marine Regiment
193rd Tank Battalion
1st Marine Div /14
93rd Infantry Div /14
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ground combat at Christmas Island (174,141)
Allied Deliberate attack

Attacking force 9843 troops, 210 guns, 204 vehicles, Assault Value = 1702
Defending force 29296 troops, 373 guns, 238 vehicles, Assault Value = 701

Allied adjusted assault: 171
Japanese adjusted defense: 899

Allied assault odds: 1 to 5 (fort level 6)

Combat modifiers
Defender: forts(+), disruption(-), preparation(-)
Attacker:

Japanese ground losses:
159 casualties reported
Squads: 1 destroyed, 11 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 12 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 2 disabled
Guns lost 3 (1 destroyed, 2 disabled)

Allied ground losses:
356 casualties reported
Squads: 3 destroyed, 50 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 7 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 2 disabled

Assaulting units:
627th Tank Destroyer Battalion
193rd Tank Battalion
3rd Marine Div /14
1st Marine Div /14
6th Infantry Division
43rd Infantry Div /1
22nd Marine Regiment
37th Infantry Division
93rd Infantry Div /14

Defending units:
18th Tank Regiment
18th Naval Guard Unit
Yokosuka 3rd SNLF
12th Engineer Regiment
Sasebo 6th SNLF
54th Division
41st Infantry Regiment
144th Infantry RCT /1
23rd Medium Field Artillery Regiment
26th Air Defense AA Regiment
3rd IJN Special Coastal Gun Battalion
5th JAAF AF Bn
53rd Construction Battalion
80th JAAF AF Bn
19th Army
56th JNAF AF Unit
11th RF Gun Battalion
4th Fleet
15th JNAF AF Unit
49th JNAF AF Unit
4th Air Division
6th Naval Const Bn /2
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ground combat at Merauke (89,124)
Allied Deliberate attack

Attacking force 11976 troops, 197 guns, 173 vehicles, Assault Value = 390
Defending force 788 troops, 6 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 22

Allied adjusted assault: 239
Japanese adjusted defense: 1

Allied assault odds: 239 to 1

Combat modifiers
Defender: terrain(+), leaders(+), disruption(-), preparation(-)
supply(-)
Attacker:

Japanese ground losses:
1103 casualties reported
Squads: 41 destroyed, 0 disabled
Non Combat: 5 destroyed, 0 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Guns lost 6 (6 destroyed, 0 disabled)
Units destroyed 1

Assaulting units:
53rd (Sep) Infantry Regiment
4th Australian Division
10 RAAF Base Force
10th RAAF M/W Sqn

Defending units:
2nd Ind.Mixed Rgt /1
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ground combat at Wau (98,126)
Allied Shock attack

Attacking force 145 troops, 2 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 12
Defending force 781 troops, 20 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 29

Allied adjusted assault: 9
Japanese adjusted defense: 100

Allied assault odds: 1 to 11 (fort level 3)

Combat modifiers
Defender: terrain(+), forts(+), leaders(+), disruption(-)
experience(-)
Attacker: shock(+), leaders(+), leaders(-)

Allied ground losses:
7 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 1 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled

Assaulting units:
1st Australian Para Bn /1

Defending units:
Kure 6th SNLF
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Here's the link were the Judy's range issue was discussed in detail:
tm.asp?m=2631884&mpage=2&key=Judy+AND+range&#2634283

Brady questions the decision and refers to credible sources.
Actually it seems like its the SBDs range that should be nerfed!

I smell something rotten here[:-]

Edit. As I understand it the air dev team questionned some of the sources used here. I will ask for clarification but as I said to Andy, if the Japs needed more range from the Judy and weight wad an issue they would take a 550lb bomb plus 2 smaller drop tanks. Extended range would then equal that of the Zeke and Jill. Removing drop tanks an nerfing range for a plane WITH hardpoints for drop tanks seems silly willy to me.....

ORIGINAL: PzB

Here's the link were the Judy's range issue was discussed in detail:
tm.asp?m=2631884&mpage=2&key=Judy+AND+range?

Brady questions the decision and refers to credible sources.
Actually it seems like its the SBDs range that should be nerfed!

I smell something rotten here[:-]

Edit. As I understand it the air dev team questionned some of the sources used here. I will ask for clarification but as I said to Andy, if the Japs needed more range from the Judy and weight wad an issue they would take a 550lb bomb plus 2 smaller drop tanks. Extended range would then equal that of the Zeke and Jill. Removing drop tanks an nerfing range for a plane WITH hardpoints for drop tanks seems silly willy to me.....

Yep, remember that whole discussion. Too late, of course. The decision had already been made and the patch delivered.

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy
This must only affect NEW STARTS or those wherein the players accept the database changes under the 1106'i' patch then. I've just starting using D4Y1 Judys in my game (May 1943) which was started several patches ago, but no we have not updated the database changes. They are able to carry 500kg bombs to range =7.

This is a strong argument for not changing the Database for games in progress. We'll not be 'upgrading' to any other patches or betas any time soon.

Well, yes, but the database changes are both -- strange changes and actuall corrections of mistakes (as those reported concerning sound detectors or 88 mm guns). You take all or nothing... [:(]

I can only repeat my post from that thread: So much for any Japanese range advantage tm.asp?m=2631884&mpage=2&key=Judy+AND+range?

ORIGINAL: Viberpol
That makes me wonder... why the heck the devs limited the range of Judy?

I searched the forum for phrases "Judy AND range" and it found only this thread.
So it seems it is not a result of some complains/whinings/lobbing of AFBs.

It seems clear from what Brady brought here that it can use both drop tanks and centerline heavy bomb. Maybe such a setup is impossible from smaller CVs, but that's why they have TBs squadrons not DBs. What's more, long range attacks from CV TFs are limited by the game code, and such a setup is definitely possible if Judies were to take off from normal airfields... so what's the problem?
Why they took the nice toy out of hands of JFBs? (me )

It's a "correction" that's actually a mistake.