Letters from Iwo Jima

[martxyz]

ORIGINAL: Foxtrot Uniform

And what happened in your life to make you so hateful and angry?

Hi ya Foxtrot,
There's a history to all this which you'll partly find in this thread, but also in other threads. You'll find that although our Panzerjaeger is making a "spirited" contribution to this thread, the initial nature of the thread was about racism. Some members of the forum, or in particular, some who decide to "drop in" occasionally are in the habit of making outrageous, unintelligent, unintelligible, dogmatic, and discriminatory remarks of all kinds.

I can see why you think that Panzerjaeger has got a bit entrenched in this aspect of the discussion (which started as a sideline) but it might be worth going back to the beginning to see the glee with which certain people welcomed the slaughtering of certain races as if they were scum.

Incidentally, all allied countries are guilty of "handing back". The British handed back Chetniks to the USSR. Other gropus were turned over, as well. In addition, deals between FDR, Stalin Churchill resulted in the western allies in Europe effectively standing by watching as Eastern Europe was occupied by the USSR. There were, I understand, many objections to the policy, but it carried the day. Sweden sending Baltic state nationals back to their countries pales into insignificance against some of this. That said, I don't think they're in a position to take the moral high ground about it all, just because they were neutral. Presumably, as refugees, they could have been given some leeway, at least for a period.
I think anyone would have a hard time portraying Sweden as a great cause of evil, destruction and death, in the world during the 20th century. I think you could easily look elsewhere for that. Two or three very large countries spring to mind.
Please go and look at the beginning of the thread, and see some REALLY rabid contributions.

Incidentally, I don't intend any disrespect to you in any of this. Certain threads just bring out the weird ones from their kennels.

[Foxtrot Uniform]

ORIGINAL: Mart

ORIGINAL: Foxtrot Uniform

And what happened in your life to make you so hateful and angry?

Hi ya Foxtrot,
There's a history to all this which you'll partly find in this thread, but also in other threads. You'll find that although our Panzerjaeger is making a "spirited" contribution to this thread, the initial nature of the thread was about racism. Some members of the forum, or in particular, some who decide to "drop in" occasionally are in the habit of making outrageous, unintelligent, unintelligible, dogmatic, and discriminatory remarks of all kinds.

I can see why you think that Panzerjaeger has got a bit entrenched in this aspect of the discussion (which started as a sideline) but it might be worth going back to the beginning to see the glee with which certain people welcomed the slaughtering of certain races as if they were scum.

Incidentally, all allied countries are guilty of "handing back". The British handed back Chetniks to the USSR. Other gropus were turned over, as well. In addition, deals between FDR, Stalin Churchill resulted in the western allies in Europe effectively standing by watching as Eastern Europe was occupied by the USSR. There were, I understand, many objections to the policy, but it carried the day. Sweden sending Baltic state nationals back to their countries pales into insignificance against some of this. That said, I don't think they're in a position to take the moral high ground about it all, just because they were neutral. Presumably, as refugees, they could have been given some leeway, at least for a period.
I think anyone would have a hard time portraying Sweden as a great cause of evil, destruction and death, in the world during the 20th century. I think you could easily look elsewhere for that. Two or three very large countries spring to mind.
Please go and look at the beginning of the thread, and see some REALLY rabid contributions.

Incidentally, I don't intend any disrespect to you in any of this. Certain threads just bring out the weird ones from their kennels.

Erm, my question was directed at "Doggie"...

[Sarge]

ORIGINAL: Panzerjaeger Hortlund

I wouldnt say all americans are stupid. You however...

Just a question btw, what sort of education do you have doggie?

Winston Churchill said it best "that small, coward country

Never mind Sweden financed the war though there export of ten million tons of iron ore per year into the German war machine, along with their ball bearing export.
At one point outraged Allies drew up planes to level the Swedish factories, so what did the Sweden do ?
Started exporting their ball bearing steel and ball bearing machines to Germany.

Never mind used their Enskilda Bank to help the Germany dispose of assets seized from Dutch Jews who died in the Holocaust.

Never mind that Sweden burned all the records to their little refuge camps after it was apparent the Germans where loosing the war.

Never mind wehrmacht troops where allowed rail access during on many occation throughout the war years.

Never mind Swedish sterilizations of 'social undesirables', begun in 1935, continued long after the war

Never mind the countless Allied sons that fertilized European fields due to Sweden’s war profiteering .

Your whole position has degraded to calling forum members here un-educated racists is as pathetic as the war profiteering your cowardly countrymen enjoyed as millions died though out the world during the war years.

[Sarge]

The revelations in Sweden's largest newspaper, Dagens Nyheter, shocked the world: long admired as a model of the enlightened and humane social welfare state, Sweden had forcibly sterilized more than 60,000 people, mostly women, between 1935 and 1976. The sterilizations were part of a government program designed to weed out "social undesirables" in the pursuit of a stronger, purer, more Nordic population

Sweden's humane social welfare state

[freder]

ORIGINAL: Foxtrot Uniform

And what happened in your life to make you so hateful and angry?

He won't answer you, as you got just 3 posts (an important issue here on the forum).
My guess is that deep down, he knows the days of American global dominance are counted; China and India will take over soon. It makes him bark at the moon and everything that's not representative of that fine exquisite American high culture.

[Hortlund]

ORIGINAL: Sarge

Winston Churchill said it best "that small, coward country

Never mind Sweden financed the war though there export of ten million tons of iron ore per year into the German war machine, along with their ball bearing export.
At one point outraged Allies drew up planes to level the Swedish factories, so what did the Sweden do ?
Started exporting their ball bearing steel and ball bearing machines to Germany.

Never mind used their Enskilda Bank to help the Germany dispose of assets seized from Dutch Jews who died in the Holocaust.

Never mind that Sweden burned all the records to their little refuge camps after it was apparent the Germans where loosing the war.

Never mind wehrmacht troops where allowed rail access during on many occation throughout the war years.

Never mind Swedish sterilizations of 'social undesirables', begun in 1935, continued long after the war

Never mind the countless Allied sons that fertilized European fields due to Sweden’s war profiteering .

Yes, never mind that because it is completely and utterly irrelevant to the current discussion. Was that what you were going to say?

Your whole position has degraded to calling forum members here un-educated racists is as pathetic as the war profiteering your cowardly countrymen enjoyed as millions died though out the world during the war years.

Nah, my position is still that racial stereotyping is wrong. My position is still that it is wrong to call for the mass-murder of all japanese because of what some of its soldiers did. My point is that guilt is always individual, never collective.

Of cource you are uncomfortable with that discussion since you think it is ok with racial stereotyping, the slaughter of japanese civilians or POWs and that guilt can be collective, depending on the ethnicity of those judged. So therefore we are now discussing Swedish neutrality in ww2...

My position has not changed though, the only thing that has changed is your attempts to avoid the original discussion.

[martxyz]

ORIGINAL: Foxtrot Uniform


Erm, my question was directed at "Doggie"...

Oh - that's different!! Quite right too. Welcome to the forum. Ha! The doggie person is on my "blocked list" so I don't have to read his drivel. So sorry about that, and once again - welcome! [:)]

Martin

[Sarge]

ORIGINAL: Panzerjaeger Hortlund

ORIGINAL: Sarge

Winston Churchill said it best "that small, coward country

Never mind Sweden financed the war though there export of ten million tons of iron ore per year into the German war machine, along with their ball bearing export.
At one point outraged Allies drew up planes to level the Swedish factories, so what did the Sweden do ?
Started exporting their ball bearing steel and ball bearing machines to Germany.

Never mind used their Enskilda Bank to help the Germany dispose of assets seized from Dutch Jews who died in the Holocaust.

Never mind that Sweden burned all the records to their little refuge camps after it was apparent the Germans where loosing the war.

Never mind wehrmacht troops where allowed rail access during on many occation throughout the war years.

Never mind Swedish sterilizations of 'social undesirables', begun in 1935, continued long after the war

Never mind the countless Allied sons that fertilized European fields due to Sweden’s war profiteering .

Yes, never mind that because it is completely and utterly irrelevant to the current discussion. Was that what you were going to say?

Really ?

Then enlighten us on how this is relevant

ORIGINAL: Panzerjaeger Hortlund
Just as there were institutionalised barbarism in the US in the pre ww1-era as well as during ww2. Who were the only three nations who set up concentration camps where they put people because of their ethnicity? Any guess? The first two are Germany and Japan...care to guess the third? Oh but surely thats not barbarism...I mean, putting people in camps just because of their ethnicity. Good old freedom loving US of A, land of the free, home of the brave.

Winston Churchill said

that small, coward country

[Sarge]

ORIGINAL: Panzerjaeger Hortlund

I had no idea Canada did it too. Shame on Canada aswell then.

"No Idea

The Understatement of the thread [:D]

[Hortlund]

ORIGINAL: Sarge
Really ?

Then enlighten us on how this is relevant

ORIGINAL: Panzerjaeger Hortlund
Just as there were institutionalised barbarism in the US in the pre ww1-era as well as during ww2. Who were the only three nations who set up concentration camps where they put people because of their ethnicity? Any guess? The first two are Germany and Japan...care to guess the third? Oh but surely thats not barbarism...I mean, putting people in camps just because of their ethnicity. Good old freedom loving US of A, land of the free, home of the brave.

Sure, I used that as an example on how dangerous stereotyping is, if you stereotype an entire nation from a single action or period of time you might arrive to all the wrong conclusions about that nation. Like you have done with Japan...you have decided to judge an entire nation, an entire race based on the actions of a few during a short period of time.

Now I ask you, what conclusion would we arrive at if we stereotype the US based on the examples of the internment of the Japanese-Americans or what if we were to stereotype the US based on the horrible atrocities committed against the native americans? What conclusions would we arrive at then?

[martxyz]

Hi Panzerjaeger Hortlund,

I do agree with much of what you said. Even so, I think you should cut Sarge some slack here, even if you do think he's changing the subject. He's still making a valid point, and in the interests of getting back on-topic, it might be better if you accepted his point and moved on.

I have epilepsy,and in Nazi Germany, I would have been a prime candidate for sterilization, and, much later, "euthanasia". Social engineering is not a good place to go. I'm a Catholic, but I wouldn't defend Magdalene Laundries or systemic child abuse. I'm British, but I wouldn't defend our hidden history of deportation of unwanted children to apalling conditions in Australia until, I think, the 1960's. No point arguing a point where you're country screwed up. I think Sweden is a great place, but it is no bastion of moral purity. I agree entirely with your earlier, and main argument, but your argument won't be strengthened by ignoring entirely some negative feedback, even if, "technically" it's not relevant.

[Hortlund]

ORIGINAL: Sarge

ORIGINAL: Panzerjaeger Hortlund

I had no idea Canada did it too. Shame on Canada aswell then.

"No Idea

The Understatement of the thread [:D]

Meh

[Hortlund]

ORIGINAL: Mart

Hi Panzerjaeger Hortlund,

I do agree with much of what you said. Even so, I think you should cut Sarge some slack here, even if you do think he's changing the subject. He's still making a valid point, and in the interests of getting back on-topic, it might be better if you accepted his point and moved on.

I have epilepsy,and in Nazi Germany, I would have been a prime candidate for sterilization, and, much later, "euthanasia". Social engineering is not a good place to go. I'm a Catholic, but I wouldn't defend Magdalene Laundries or systemic child abuse. I'm British, but I wouldn't defend our hidden history of deportation of unwanted children to apalling conditions in Australia until, I think, the 1960's. No point arguing a point where you're country screwed up. I think Sweden is a great place, but it is no bastion of moral purity. I agree entirely with your earlier, and main argument, but your argument won't be strengthened by ignoring entirely some negative feedback, even if, "technically" it's not relevant.

Of cource we have thousands of actions in our history that I am not proud of. I fail to see the relevance of those occations to this discussion however. Especially since sarge and doggie are just looking for ways to deflect the discussion from its original topic into something else.

[Sarge]

ORIGINAL: Panzerjaeger Hortlund


Of cource we have thousands of actions in our history that I am not proud of. I fail to see the relevance of those occations to this discussion however. Especially since sarge and doggie are just looking for ways to deflect the discussion from its original topic into something else.

No, this is deflect the discussion [;)]

ORIGINAL: freder
My guess is that deep down, he knows the days of American global dominance are counted; China and India will take over soon. It makes him bark at the moon and everything that's not representative of that fine exquisite American high culture.

I will be more then happy to continue debating your dilution’s on Japanese humanity during the war years


WAR YEARS being the key [;)]

[mdiehl]

My guess is that deep down, he knows the days of American global dominance are counted; China and India will take over soon.

Speaking as an American, I look forward to that day. We've been carrying the rest of the world's water for far too long. When the day arrives that all terrorists and totalitarians can count on the US taking no action because it might "offend" China, and when the UN won't take any action because, well, the UN doesn't take action on anything, it should be VERY interesting for people living in the circum-Mediterranean, South America, Africa, and southeast Asia.

When I'm 70 years old and looking on that day, Ima sit back on a 40 acre spread somewhere in the US, smile, nod, and maybe have some popcorn.

[06 Maestro]

ORIGINAL: mdiehl

My guess is that deep down, he knows the days of American global dominance are counted; China and India will take over soon.

Speaking as an American, I look forward to that day. We've been carrying the rest of the world's water for far too long. When the day arrives that all terrorists and totalitarians can count on the US taking no action because it might "offend" China, and when the UN won't take any action because, well, the UN doesn't take action on anything, it should be VERY interesting for people living in the circum-Mediterranean, South America, Africa, and southeast Asia.

When I'm 70 years old and looking on that day, Ima sit back on a 40 acre spread somewhere in the US, smile, nod, and maybe have some popcorn.

I was smiling over that same sentence; what a wonderful world it will be when the masters of Tibet and the water purification experts of the Ganges River lead the world.[:D][:D][:D]

[Knuckles_85]

ORIGINAL: mdiehl

My guess is that deep down, he knows the days of American global dominance are counted; China and India will take over soon.

Speaking as an American, I look forward to that day. We've been carrying the rest of the world's water for far too long. When the day arrives that all terrorists and totalitarians can count on the US taking no action because it might "offend" China, and when the UN won't take any action because, well, the UN doesn't take action on anything, it should be VERY interesting for people living in the circum-Mediterranean, South America, Africa, and southeast Asia.

When I'm 70 years old and looking on that day, Ima sit back on a 40 acre spread somewhere in the US, smile, nod, and maybe have some popcorn.

And I'll bring a case of beer with me so we can laugh at all those countries in chaos that rooted for the downfall of the US.

[martxyz]

ORIGINAL: mdiehl
Speaking as an American, I look forward to that day. We've been carrying the rest of the world's water for far too long.

Maybe I misunderstood. Did you mean carrying it for us so that we could use it later, or carrying it for yourselves and then taking it home with you? [:)]

[mjk428]

ORIGINAL: freder

He won't answer you, as you got just 3 posts (an important issue here on the forum).

At least with the FU account. Multiply that number by several thousand for the actual amount.

My guess is that deep down, he knows the days of American global dominance are counted; China and India will take over soon.

You seem pleased with this thought. Good luck to you then.

It makes him bark at the moon and everything that's not representative of that fine exquisite American high culture.

More attacks from the "enlightened".

[mjk428]

ORIGINAL: Mart

ORIGINAL: mdiehl
Speaking as an American, I look forward to that day. We've been carrying the rest of the world's water for far too long.

Maybe I misunderstood. Did you mean carrying it for us so that we could use it later, or carrying it for yourselves and then taking it home with you? [:)]

A hearty Foxtrot Uniform to you. My grandfather might regret that he joined a foreign army just to help you all out in WW1. All he brought back was some shrapnel.