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Shannon, I was curious about the renaming process on the lend leased air units. Are you renaming them to match, to avoid player confusion?

Historically, some of the receiving nations used a different name than was found in US service.

For example, the A-22(USAAF)/Glenn Martin 167(French Army)/Maryland(RAF).

I have been working on grouping the lend leased air units so that when a unit is lend-leased a matching unit is removed from the source country’s force pool.

It should be possible in the game to right clic on an air unit, and know what other planes there are in its lend-lease group, so that the owner of the source plane knows which countries would like being lend leased the plane.

Also, in your mind, who decide of who gets a plane when it is available for many countries, and only one is existing (i.e. P-40E in 1941) ?
There should be a system where the recipient click (right clic + command) on his stripped plane to manifest his will to have it, and a system where the source country would see who is interested in the plane and where he could decide who has it.

Maybe all this could be done in the Lend Lease Pool, where these options would be included in a right clic menu.
Example : The Russian would right click on the P-40E in 1941 (in his lend lease pool where all his possible lend leased planes would appear), and select "I'm interested in this plane being Lend-leased to me". The Chinese would select the same option the CW too, and France would not select it.
In his own lend leased pool, the USA would have a list of all possible recipients of the P-40E of 1941 that appears when he clicks that plane, and the French one would be grayed out (or not appearing). The US player would then right click the CW P-40E in the list of possible recipients, and select "Lease that plane".

there are some WiF players who only allow the Lend-Lease of the multiple varities of US planes based strictly on the factors on the counters, so China can only get one specific counter for example, but I always thought that was getting a little too detailed. If the Model is the same, I say just let it go without worrying about the variant letter (P40-A or P40-C or whatever) or a factor match.

[First an apologia, Lend lease is not an optional rule, so this discussion doesn't really belong in this thread. But I am too busy to worry about correcting this mistake, so we'll continue on here. Anyway, I wanted the Optional Rules thread back up towards the top of the forum thread list to bring it to the attention of newcomers to the forum.]

I am going to base the groups exclusively on the full name for the air unit. If the names match perfectly, then they are in the same group. There are 6 exceptions which I listed in post #316. So,

A-20A Boston I (1 USA source, 1 French, 1 Indian),
A-20B Boston III (2 USA source, 1 Chinse, 1 French),
A-20C, Boston IIIA (1 USA source, 1 USSR), and
A-20G Boston IV (3 USA source, 1 Chinese, 1 USSR) are 4 different groups.

The numbers/factors sometimes match perfectly to the source air unit, but not always. I am ignoring those differences and going exclusively by the matching names and the year of availability.

In order for an air unit to be lend-leased it has to be in either the force pool or the reserve pool (i.e., built but not piloted). The year availability controls whether a unit is placed in the force pool, so I do not need extra code to handle that restriction.

As for the form for selecting a unit to lend lease, that will be the Pool form which can display all 3 pools: lend lease, force, and air reserve. The decision maker to lend lease a unit will be the source country. Only that player can actually lend lease a unit.

I think I will let both the source major power and the recipient major power return a lend leased unit back to the source country. That will both let the source country demand the unit back and the recipient country to give the unit back if he no longer wants it. Again, these units have to be in one of the 3 pools, so this will not interfere with units on the map or in production.

From reading the code, CWIF appears to have permitted any air unit to be lend leased. It also imposed a restriction that only 1 unit could be lend-leased per turn. I am replacing those sections of code (lend lease units are resticted to counter mix, but an unlimited number can be lend leased per turn).

I also see no reason to restrict when lend lease occurs, just so long as it isn't during production. And a lend leased air unit can not be returned in the same turn that it is lend leased (that is to prevent players from 'redrawing').

Lastly, I find the rules somewhat ambiguous as to whether lend leasing air units can only occur after the US Entry options for "Lend Lease" have been taken. My understanding is that the lend lease of air units is completely separate from the lend lease of BPs as described in the US Entry section of the rules. The CWIF code appears to have a split decision on this, sometimes making a check for the US Entry option having been chosen and at others times not requiring the check. Could you let me know which is the correct interpretation of the rules?

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
Lastly, I find the rules somewhat ambiguous as to whether lend leasing air units can only occur after the US Entry options for "Lend Lease" have been taken. My understanding is that the lend lease of air units is completely separate from the lend lease of BPs as described in the US Entry section of the rules. The CWIF code appears to have a split decision on this, sometimes making a check for the US Entry option having been chosen and at others times not requiring the check. Could you let me know which is the correct interpretation of the rules?

Lend Leasing air units is available from turn 1 without conditions. It can even be made during setup.

**************************************
13.6.4 Lend lease
Foreign aircraft
During set up or this step, you can move a striped aircraft from the lend-lease pool to your force pool if:
- the source major power agrees; and
- an aircraft with the same designation is currently in either the source major power’s force pool or its reserve pool.
Move that other aircraft from the force pool or reserve pool to the lend-lease pool.
**************************************
"This step" as written in the rule, is the production step.

ORIGINAL: Froonp

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
Lastly, I find the rules somewhat ambiguous as to whether lend leasing air units can only occur after the US Entry options for "Lend Lease" have been taken. My understanding is that the lend lease of air units is completely separate from the lend lease of BPs as described in the US Entry section of the rules. The CWIF code appears to have a split decision on this, sometimes making a check for the US Entry option having been chosen and at others times not requiring the check. Could you let me know which is the correct interpretation of the rules?

Lend Leasing air units is available from turn 1 without conditions. It can even be made during setup.

**************************************
13.6.4 Lend lease
Foreign aircraft
During set up or this step, you can move a striped aircraft from the lend-lease pool to your force pool if:
- the source major power agrees; and
- an aircraft with the same designation is currently in either the source major power’s force pool or its reserve pool.
Move that other aircraft from the force pool or reserve pool to the lend-lease pool.
**************************************
"This step" as written in the rule, is the production step.

The reason I do not want to give the players the ability to lend lease units during production is that I want the force pools all set before the players start randomly drawing units. I do not want the US to randomly draw LND, see that they did not get the good lend lease air unit and then lend lease it to the British to see if they dan draw it.

Is there a downside to lend leasing air units at any time? Perhaps something to do with air units getting shot down during the turn and thereby changing the mix of units in the force pools?

The reason I do not want to give the players the ability to lend lease units during production is that I want the force pools all set before the players start randomly drawing units. I do not want the US to randomly draw LND, see that they did not get the good lend lease air unit and then lend lease it to the British to see if they dan draw it.

Lending aircrafts is 13.6.4, producing is 13.6.5.
1.1 Rules paragraph, say that "We have arranged these rules in sequence-of-play order."

So lend lease is before all production.
The players should be prompted to do that before producing any units.

ORIGINAL: Froonp

The reason I do not want to give the players the ability to lend lease units during production is that I want the force pools all set before the players start randomly drawing units. I do not want the US to randomly draw LND, see that they did not get the good lend lease air unit and then lend lease it to the British to see if they dan draw it.

Lending aircrafts is 13.6.4, producing is 13.6.5.
1.1 Rules paragraph, say that "We have arranged these rules in sequence-of-play order."

So lend lease is before all production.
The players should be prompted to do that before producing any units.

I will have to add that then. There is no Lend Lease Phase from CWIF and there is no special prompt for Lend Lease at the start of the Production Phase that I can see. I'll think about how to implement this for a while; I hate to make snap decisions about important things.

China's the only country where a US entry option has to be passed before it can receive lend-leased aircraft.
 
Incidentally, I'm glad that in MWiF the lending of air units is going to go back to normal WiF:FE. In CWiF you could lend anything you wanted.

ORIGINAL: composer99
China's the only country where a US entry option has to be passed before it can receive lend-leased aircraft.

That's not exactly this. This US Entry Option has to be passed before China builds any aircraft.
*******************************
1. Chinese build aircraft - You must choose this entry option before China can build any aircraft unit.
*******************************

Incidentally, I'm glad that in MWiF the lending of air units is going to go back to normal WiF:FE. In CWiF you could lend anything you wanted.

I agree. A Japanese Stuka and an Italian A6M2 were convenient but nowhere near realistic.

ORIGINAL: Froonp

ORIGINAL: composer99
China's the only country where a US entry option has to be passed before it can receive lend-leased aircraft.

That's not exactly this. This US Entry Option has to be passed before China builds any aircraft.
*******************************
1. Chinese build aircraft - You must choose this entry option before China can build any aircraft unit.
*******************************

However, later on (13.6.4) it states that:

"China may not place US sourced aircraft in its force pools until US entry option 1 (build Chinese aircraft) has been picked."

(One of the drawbacks of such a complex ruleset as RaW, imho - at times it can be a little frustrating that one has to read multiple places in the rules for various aspects of the same issue. A few weeks ago we had a similar issue regarding ASW and CriF/CoiF - at the ASW-rule section it states that BBs no longer provide any ASW, but no more extra rules are mentioned. So we assumed that conv still got 'free' ASW from '42 onwards. However, at a later time, looking at the special rules section at the end of RaW, we found out that we had been mistaken, since it turned out that those free conv ASW are not available when playing with those optionals. [:)])

I have just transferred the writeups that appear on the screen (using right click) during "start new game" to the Players Manual. If any one would like to see the full text, I have created a PDF. Just send me an email request: SHokanson@HawaiianTel.net.

Be warned, it decribes all 83 optional rules and runs to 60 pages. And this is just Section 5 of the documentation!.

ORIGINAL: composer99

China's the only country where a US entry option has to be passed before it can receive lend-leased aircraft.

Incidentally, I'm glad that in MWiF the lending of air units is going to go back to normal WiF:FE. In CWiF you could lend anything you wanted.

Yes, I know you will all disagree with me but…

To build Chinese aircraft the US must choose US entry option 1.

1. Chinese build aircraft - You must choose this entry option before China can build any aircraft unit.

To Lend lease you must choose US entry options 17, 27, and 30.

17. Lend lease to China - Each Allied major power can give up to 5 build points a turn to China (see 13.6.4). The US can use its convoy points to transport build points to China from the USA. This entry option can only be chosen if you have already chosen entry option 9.

27. Lend lease to western Allies - The US can give up to 5 build points a turn (see 13.6.4) to each of the Commonwealth and France in future turns (unlimited while the USA is at war with Germany). You can only choose this option if you have already chosen entry option 15. US convoy points can’t be used to transport these build points while the US is a neutral major power.

30. Lend lease to USSR - The US, CW and/or France can give or receive 1 build point each per turn to or from the USSR in future turns even if the USSR is neutral (5 each per turn while Germany and the USSR are at war and unlimited while the US is also at war with Germany). You can only choose this option if you have already chosen entry option 19. US convoy points can’t be used to transport these build points while the US is a neutral major power.

13.6.4 Lend lease deals with Transport of build points AND the Lend lease of Foreign aircraft.

ORIGINAL: Mziln

ORIGINAL: composer99

China's the only country where a US entry option has to be passed before it can receive lend-leased aircraft.

Incidentally, I'm glad that in MWiF the lending of air units is going to go back to normal WiF:FE. In CWiF you could lend anything you wanted.

Yes, I know you will all disagree with me but…

To build Chinese aircraft the US must choose US entry option 1.

1. Chinese build aircraft - You must choose this entry option before China can build any aircraft unit.

To Lend lease you must choose US entry options 17, 27, and 30.

17. Lend lease to China - Each Allied major power can give up to 5 build points a turn to China (see 13.6.4). The US can use its convoy points to transport build points to China from the USA. This entry option can only be chosen if you have already chosen entry option 9.

27. Lend lease to western Allies - The US can give up to 5 build points a turn (see 13.6.4) to each of the Commonwealth and France in future turns (unlimited while the USA is at war with Germany). You can only choose this option if you have already chosen entry option 15. US convoy points can’t be used to transport these build points while the US is a neutral major power.

30. Lend lease to USSR - The US, CW and/or France can give or receive 1 build point each per turn to or from the USSR in future turns even if the USSR is neutral (5 each per turn while Germany and the USSR are at war and unlimited while the US is also at war with Germany). You can only choose this option if you have already chosen entry option 19. US convoy points can’t be used to transport these build points while the US is a neutral major power.

13.6.4 Lend lease deals with Transport of build points AND the Lend lease of Foreign aircraft.

Hey, you're right! I disagree.[:)]

What you are indirectly pointing out is that ADG was sloppy in its use of the phrase "Lend Lease". They apply it to air units and also to build points, but they intend for the two meanings to be separate from each other. If they had called them LLA and LLB for air units and build points, the rules would have been less confusing and controversial.

I'd add to what Steven wrote :

********************************
24.1.6: Foreign sourced aircraft may be added to the force pools before set-up if the source major power agrees (see 13.6.4).
13.6.4: During set up or this step, you can move a striped aircraft from the lend-lease pool to your force pool if:
********************************

Given that, it is clear that from the moment that China can build planes, China can build Foreign sourced planes.

As I read the rules:

I fully agree that the US LL options (except option 1) is about LL BP/resources only, and not ac (as have been noted 'Lend Lease' simply refers to tow different things)

13.6.4: "China may not place US sourced aircraft in its force pools until US entry option 1 (build Chinese aircraft) has been picked."

It is the only exception mentioned under the 'foreign aircraft' rules, indicating that as soon as option 1 has been picked, China can build ac and receive LL ac.
Since no other major powers are mentioned, that indicates that there are no restrictions on LL of ac to any of them.

Someone was commenting on the oil rules being complex. Here are the MWIF writeups on the 2 optional rules primarily concerned with oil.
=============================

27.1 Oil Rules
This optional rule simulates the important role that oil played during WW II. Be warned
that adding this rule increases the complexity of the game quite a bit. The mechanics are much
easier with the program doing the record keeping (than doing them by hand when playing over
the board) but the more dramatic increase in complexity is due to the impact the oil rules have on
tactical, operational, and even strategic planning, and execution of those plans. In practical
terms, the oil rules change how units are reorganized, from disorganized to organized, with some
unit types requiring oil resources.

Disorganized units that are not oil dependent are reorganized to organized
during the final reorganization step. Those that are oil dependent have additional restrictions
placed upon whether they can be reorganized at that time. Specifically, during the final
reorganization step oil resources must be spent to reorganize oil dependent units.

All naval and air units are oil dependent and it costs 0.2 or 0.1 oil points to reorganize
each unit, depending on unit type and which optional rules are in effect. Land based units are
only oil dependent if they are motorized, mechanized, or armor. In general, corps/army sized
units cost 0.2 oil points to reorganize and divisions cost 0.1. Notable exceptions are HQ units
with HQ-I costing 0.4 and HQ-A costing 0.6 oil points. If you have a question about any specific
unit, the oil point cost to reorganize it is part of the general information displayed for each unit,
along with the build points needed for building it and the time it takes for the unit to be built.

For a unit to use oil for reorganizing, the oil must belong to the unit's controlling major
power. Even oil controlled by co-operating major powers can't be used. However, Communist
and Nationalist Chinese can use each other's oil. Chinese controlled oil resources may reorganize
disorganized US units in China if they can trace a supply path (of unlimited length) back to
Stilwell. You do not have to transport the oil anywhere. But you must be able to trace a path
from the unit to the oil resource. This path is exactly like a basic supply path (including via
overseas) except that it can be of any length.

The total oil needed for all the units you choose to reorganize, rounded to the nearest
whole number, is the minimum amount of oil resources (whether from the current turn or saved)
that you must spend. This means that you can reorganize 2 units that cost 0.2 oil points each for
free (because 0.4 rounds to zero). However, if units costing a total of 0.5 or more oil points to
reorganize trace a path to the same oil resource, you must spend that resource. This may mean
that you will have to spend more oil resources than the minimum amount.

For example, assume you have only 2 oil resources and 6 oil dependent units to
reorganize (at 0.2 oil points per unit). You will have to spend at least a minimum of 1 oil
resource because 6 * 0.2 = 1.2, which rounds to 1. And you will only have to spend that
minimum if 4 or 5 of the units can trace a path to the same resource. But suppose that 3 units can
only trace to 1 of the oil resources and the other 3 can only trace to the second oil resource. In
that case, you would have to spend both resources to reorganize all 6 units.

If a supply unit was expended to make an HQ a primary supply source during the turn,
then during final reorganization, that HQ may reorganize oil dependent units (even itself) as if it
were 1 oil resource.

When sending resources to another player, you must also commit how many of the
resources are oil.

27.2 Saving Oil Resources & Build Points
This optional rule lets a player save build points and oil resources (i.e., oil points). It
should probably be used whenever the optional rule for oil is being used. With this rule in effect,
a player does not have to depend on fresh oil every turn for reorganizing his troops. Instead, he
can use the old stuff from previous turns. It also lets the player save oil resources and build
points for production in later turns, essentially retaining excess production as inventory against a
future date when it might be more useful.

A player can save oil resources and build points from turn to turn. To save an oil
resource it must have neither been used in production nor for reorganizing units. The process is
fairly easy, you transport an oil resource to a city or a port that you control and simply indicate
that you are saving it. There is a limit on how much oil can be held in one hex: 4 for a city, 4 for
a port, and double if it's a major power's capital. For example, London can store 16 oil points =
(4 for the city + 4 for the port) * 2 for being a major power's capital. You can't save non-oil
resources. Neutral major powers can only save one oil per turn (in addition to any previously
saved oil).

You save build points the same way as saving oil resources with the same constraints on
number per hex. You can save both oil points and build points in the same hex (e.g., 16 of each
in London).

Once you have saved oil resources you can use them exactly like any other oil resource:
either to reorganize units or as resources for production. You can also transport saved build and
oil points like any other resource, with the additional flexibility that they may be transported to
cities and ports that are not factories. Of course, an oil resource still has to get to a factory to be
used for production.

In a later production step, you can remove saved build points from the map and add them
to your build point total. You may spend any number saved at your capital but no more than 1
saved build point may be consumed per turn from each other city, useable factory and port. For
example, you can spend 4 saved build points in Hamburg (1 for the city + 1 for the port + 2 for
the factories), and an unlimited number in Berlin each turn.

If one of your land units enters a hex containing saved enemy oil resources (or saved
enemy build points), they become your oil resources (or build points). Saved build points and
saved oil resources can also be destroyed by strategic bombardment .

When you are using the optional rule for Factory Destruction and Construction, the
strategic bombardment bonus for bombers that fly to their target uncontested (no enemy fighters)
changes. Normally the bonus is a flat +1. When the optional rules for (a) Factory Destruction
and Construction and (b) Saving Oil Resources are both in effect, the addition is 0.1 times the
number of factories, oil resources, synthetic oil plants (if that optional rule is being used), saved
oil, and saved build points in the hex. Any fraction is converted to the next whole number. For
example, 3 factories + 3 saved oil + 5 saved build points gives a +2 bonus to the strategic
bombers (1.1 rounds up to 2).

Yes please can you send the Optional Rules to
tjanderson@rogers.com
Thx ..
IDG

Has anything been posted on how the MWiF mechanics for reorganizing oil-dependent units will operate?

We use the rule and like it but the interturn overhead is arduous.

Thanks.

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

Has anything been posted on how the MWiF mechanics for reorganizing oil-dependent units will operate?

We use the rule and like it but the interturn overhead is arduous.

Thanks.

See post 337 immediately above - paragraphs 5 & 6.