Matrix Games Forums

ORIGINAL: Terminus

Yes, but that would be four throwers in total (2 x 2 "tubes"). The K-gun is only one tube.

Ah, now I understand. I indeed meant 2 Type 94 throwers for four tubes and ASW rating of 4.

With rails, that makes an ASW rating of 6, which is too much for an early-war ship.

ORIGINAL: Terminus

With rails, that makes an ASW rating of 6, which is too much for an early-war ship.

For Akizukis, that's the actual ASW armament of RL Akizuki class, which was available in approximately the same timeframe. I sold it short on the number of DCs, though, should be 72. For Yugumos yes, that a mistake.

Once done with DDs we need to move onto SS.

Think we are all agreed on the Japanese finding religion when it comes to Commerce Raiding. I think we leave the existing SS through Circles 1 & 2 but start the development of a medium SS at Circle's 3 and 4. This will provide several additional SS at start but a much more simple building program when the war is running.

Should the medium SS be a variant of the KD?

While I'm at it, how about the following take on the escort forces and subchasers?

CD-A Class (16 ships built before the war, 2 in construction). First ships laid down in 1938-39 according to the specifications created by the Escort Command, instead of Shimushu escorts and Ch-4 (and following) large subchasers, using diesel engines of same power (2600 hps) as the latter, but with the requirement of relatively high range and greater seaworthyness, so that these ships will be able to escorting resupply convoys to Mandates in case of a war (convoys from SRA obviously aren't on the table yet...). This, as well as the requirement of heavier armament, so that new ships won't be outgunned by subs, leads to serious increase in size. Their hull resembles a cross between a Ch-13 subschaser and a RL kaibokan. The design is kept simple, by pre-war standards, due to conflict between doctrines and plans developed by Escort Command with limited funding, not allowing to implement them. Armament removed from reconstructed warships is used for same reason. 800 tons of standard displacement, speed closer to 17kts, range 6000 nms, 1x1 120/45 10YT (on the bow), 1x4 13.2/76, 1x1 40mm Vickers, 18 DCs (an increase to 36 is already planned).

This class obviously replaces Ch-4 and Ch-13 large subchasers.

CD-B class (1 built before the war, 15 in construction, available throughout 1941-42). A version which production launched on merchant shipyards in parallel with Standard Type cargo ships in late 1940, as the part of the same program of ensuring the Empire's economical security in case of a war. Plagued by various flaws and delays, caused by excessive attempts to cut costs and builders' lack of experience, as well as struggles for obtaining their cut of budget until the opening of hostilities. Uses an engine comparable to Ch-13 subchasers, which proves underpowered. Results are less than impressive: 730 tons, 14 kts, range 4800 nms, 1x1 120/45 3YT (due to shortage of high-angle guns), 2x1 40mm Vickers, 1x1 76/40, 36 DCs.

CD-C class (80 available starting from autumn of 1942 and until the end of 1944). Ordered immediately after the initial success in the war becomes clear, in place of Etorofu kaibokans and Ch-28 subchasers. Replaces Etorofu, Mikura and Ch-28 classes. Derived from CD-A, as Escort Command cannot resist the lure of a ship with greater overall performance. 850 tons, 20 kts (engine is less powerful than that of Etorofu/Mikura/Ukuru, about 3400 hps, but size is smaller as well), 7000 nms, 1x1 120/45 10YT, 3x2 25/60, 2x1 13.2/76, 72 DCs.
Take note, that the aft 120mm guns aren't installed on any of the proposed escorts. That's due to doctrine, that commands escorts to engage subs by swiftly closing distance, with the intent to conclude attack by ramming. Therefore aft guns are seen as unnecessary for artillery duels with subs, and against air targets extra 25mm MGs are more effective than 120mm DP guns without real fire directors (IRL, not in the game...). If some sort of modern single-mount 76-88 AA gun will be adopted by Navy in this alternative, it can be installed in the aft position later in the war, instead of more 25/60 triples. Besides more ASW/AA weapons, extra space will be used to expand fuel tanks a bit.

CD-D and CD-E (300+ available starting from early 1943 and until the end of the war). Class CD-B finally done right. A rough equivalent in size, engine power, and capabilities to RL Types C and D, including use of turbine engines on CD-E, due to deficit of diesels, but with armament based on CD-C above, although with less AAMGs initially.

I'm postulating parallel production of two escort classes to keep a link with the reality, to a degree. Tactically, fast and more capable CD-C escorts will be intended to be able to support escort destroyers in protecting fast convoys running to the frontline, (or working in dedicated ASW patrols, when these will be adopted), while other escorts will be meant to defend shipping lanes to SRA.

Cha-1 auxilary subchasers (approximately 200 available, beginning from summer of 1942). No difference from the type in the game. Production starts on small shipyards immediately after the beginning of hostilities, to provide protection from coastal convoys and harbor defense.

Pa-1 patrol boats (approximately 300 available, beginning from early 1944). A replacement class for Cha-1 SCs, using the same engine and built on the same shipyards. Bigger and slower, with 2500 nm radius of action, and armament of 4x1 25/60 and 18 DCs.

Hmmmm...actual FUNCTIONAL escorts.

Just went through the 3rd and 4th Circle Plans as well as the 3 Supplemental Building plans of 1940/1941. These are the totals of SS authorized to be built:

I-Boats (66 Total)
05 Type-A
35 Type-B
26 Type-C

Ro-Class (52 Total)
34 Type Ro-34
18 Type Ro-100

What was the rough number of escorts they built historically?

Approximately 180 escorts and, if I counted correctly, 49 large subchasers. Note, though, that the game includes the construction queue until the end of the scenario, regardless of whether Japanese shipyards are likely to work at all in late 1945, so the number of ships for the end-war types is necessarily higher.

Thats alot of ships you guys are building in this mod.
 
doc

Light cruisers are half that of IRL, 1-st class DDs are increased by about 10% over Scen 1. Carriers are fewer in number (but greater in quality). Only battleline and second-class DDs/light forces are significantly expanded, latter mostly for second half of the war.

IMO giveing the Japanese a few more ships in the middle and late war should make the game more enjoyable.  But I might be wrong for I have not had a game go that far.
 
The better guns scare me and my STFs[:D] commanders to death.  I know I keep plugging my ideas and thoughts into the thread but Thanks for the mod and perking my interest in this area guys.
 
doc

ORIGINAL: John 3rd

Once done with DDs we need to move onto SS.

Think we are all agreed on the Japanese finding religion when it comes to Commerce Raiding. I think we leave the existing SS through Circles 1 & 2 but start the development of a medium SS at Circle's 3 and 4. This will provide several additional SS at start but a much more simple building program when the war is running.

Should the medium SS be a variant of the KD?

I believe I elaborated why a focus on commerce raiding is a hopeless endeavor for Japanese when we discussed RA. Improved doctrine and organization, as proposed in this thread by Terminus, do not change this. The primary target of the sub fleet still should be the enemy fleet, its support train, and communications to its forward bases, except in a long-term campaign of attrition. Switch to shorter-range subs, even ones supposed to operate from forward bases, sets IJN sub forces even firmer in this role (Mandates still are too far from economically crucial American sealanes, and major repairs still will not be possible outside of Home Islands, undermining attempts at a sustained sub campaign even further).

More on that tomorrow.

That is what I'm saying. We settle on one design and mass produce it. Your KD creation in RA appears excellent but is somewhat costly. It is quite nice though and usable. I'd say that or do you want to work along an Ro-100 line?

As an AFB, my suggestion would be to use the subs as live fire targets for your up and coming coastal command. [:D][;)]

Thank You SOOOOO much for that suggestion. I'll place it in the 'files' next the desk!

You know the expression; Hi I am from the government and here to help. [;)]

Michael made the comment on the phone that it sure would be nice to have some engineering units that are restricted to Japan for base and Fort work. Not sure about that but am forwarding the request.

On a differing thought-line what about making the area from Okinawa up to Paramushiro Jima all Home Defense? Never understood why it isn't so in the game. There is probably an easy answer to this but it did cross my mind.

Serious Topic: If we assume an extra couple of years of Army/Navy development and economic investment within Manchuria and Korea, what might we see? Ideas:

1. The Anshuun Refinery and Oil Development we did in RA could be good.
2. Adding HI and LI to the region.
3. Perhaps adding several aircraft factories in other Manchurian cities beyond the historic one we have in the game.
4. Expand Port Arthur's Naval Yard and Merchant Yard OR blend into a major Naval Yard period.
5. Expand Armaments and Vehicles?

Would be nice to add some yards for Naval and Merchant ships.

Ideas?

So does adding AC factorys also increase the amount of RD and production of AC or engines etc?

John I think there are some hard limits that you would be up against. I am not sure that Japan could add industry, they just weren't able to do that.