Matrix Games Forums

Posted: **Sat May 01, 2010 1:54 am**

He should be so lucky when Barbarossa starts.

Posted: **Sat May 01, 2010 6:00 pm**

exactly. the scariest Barbarossa comes after the Germans slogged through a nearly pure rain May/Jun 40, a short-as-possible Jul/Aug 40, and then back to total storms in Sep/Oct for the death struggle for Paris. One of the greatest things about WiF is the what-goes-around-comes-around nature of the dice in the game, imo.

Now, it was frustrating as all heck one winter when my nicely winterized Russians were poised to return from Siberia at many different points after a particularly ferocious '41 Barbarossa and neither the Arctic nor North Temperate zone had any Snow weather (some Blizzards, mostly Storm) from Sep/Oct 43 through to the next Mar/Apr ....... but I still crossed the Vistula in September 1944 as the sun never set after that and we basically re-played the Destruction of Army Group Centre (and North and Ukraine and North Ukraine and whatever crazy Army Group names Adolf was throwing on his poor little units who just couldn't run away fast enough.)

Posted: **Fri Nov 12, 2010 1:44 pm**

Hm. I've read parts of this thread and there is something that I don't understand.

I've never been pushed into the Urals or fallen back to the Urals as USSR, so I've got no practical experience w/ that strategy.

A lot of the posters seem to suggest that the USSR retreat to the Urals, and rail all its factories to the Urals and Murmansk/Archangel.

There are only 8 resources available to USSR if they fall back to the Urals (assuming Japan by this time takes the far east). Even if allies can get resources through to 3 factories in Murmansk/Archangel, that's only 11 resources total.

How can the USSR possibly come back with 11 resources? Production if the Germans don't attack is only going to be about 14 BP per turn in 1943. This doesn't seem like enough to come back even if the Soviets have preserved most of their army by retreating.

Thanks for any insight.

Posted: **Fri Nov 12, 2010 3:36 pm**

You would not retreat to the Urals unless forced there and often there may be other pockets of resistance like around Leningrad and/or in the Caucasus and/or holding railed factories in Archangel or Murmansk. Urals plus Caucasus is viable if you can keep convoys in the Caspian to bring oil to the factories in Siberia. Western Allies can send resources and build points to Murmansk and Archangel.

With only Siberia, you are in a tough spot to come back unless you have managed to build up a lot of stored oil there as well - to augment production.

Posted: **Fri Nov 12, 2010 3:49 pm**

ORIGINAL: paulderynck
You would not retreat to the Urals unless forced there and often there may be other pockets of resistance like around Leningrad and/or in the Caucasus and/or holding railed factories in Archangel or Murmansk. Urals plus Caucasus is viable if you can keep convoys in the Caspian to bring oil to the factories in Siberia. Western Allies can send resources and build points to Murmansk and Archangel.

With only Siberia, you are in a tough spot to come back unless you have managed to build up a lot of stored oil there as well - to augment production.

Ok thanks. That's what I suspected but it's nice to have it confirmed.

Cheers

Posted: **Fri Nov 12, 2010 4:33 pm**

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

You would not retreat to the Urals unless forced there and often there may be other pockets of resistance like around Leningrad and/or in the Caucasus and/or holding railed factories in Archangel or Murmansk. Urals plus Caucasus is viable if you can keep convoys in the Caspian to bring oil to the factories in Siberia. Western Allies can send resources and build points to Murmansk and Archangel.

With only Siberia, you are in a tough spot to come back unless you have managed to build up a lot of stored oil there as well - to augment production.

But there is a problem as to how many saved build points can be used in production if you only have Murmansk for getting in Lend Lease from the Allies. I had to write special code to limit the number of saved BPs being used at each city - which was a pain to write.[:@]

Posted: **Fri Nov 12, 2010 5:21 pm**

Not saved build points - lend leased build points. Russia could save her own there (although hard to figure why she'd do this in a typical game with more than one or two) and spend any amount.

But lend leased build points won't even arrive without being able to reach sufficient factory/major port capacity limits.

Posted: **Fri Nov 12, 2010 11:19 pm**

you don't simply retreat straight back to the Urals. you carefully choose which units the Axis can attack, and where. the goal is to keep your HQ (even rail moving the slow ones) and ARM and MECH as long as you possibly can, hopefully all the way back to the valley south of the Caucasus and the Volga line in front of the Urals. At those points you have to turn and fight even with the armor. But before that you need to trade in your GARR and INF for railing out factories and impulses of Axis time (and some MIL, but over-reliance on weak MIL can make things too easy for the Germans; it is also key to scrap your 3 and 4 factor units after they are lost). keeping your ARM and MECH alive is a matter of managing your fighter cover well to help keep them from getting ground-struck, and just generally keeping them out of range of the Stukas at least. To do that you have to move them backwards, which is a retreat. two ARM/MECH units in a clear hex, outside of Stuka range, are a strong defense, especially when they can only be attacked from two hexes, and are unlikely to even be attacked while the Axis is also busy reducing your cities full of infantry. all that changes as soon as those tanks are without enough Fighter cover and within range of too many Axis bombers - watch carefully for strong Axis LND3.

trying to maintain a strong solid line in front of the Axis for too long allows them to use their air superiority and blitz bonuses (smart Panzer commanders change Shatter results to Retreat results to keep the Russian units from the safety of the production spiral) to destroy your units too fast for you to replace them. you will lose units no matter what; the key is to keep your best units until the Axis forces start to thin out as they have to divide their efforts on to the many strategic axes that are key to the long-term Russian defense - Leningrad, Archangel, the rail lines to the Urals (Saratov and Kuybyshev are key hexes now), the Turkish border and then Baku, and the Crimea.

and once the front stabilizes on those various axes, yes it is true that Russia is resource limited. key aids then are convoys in the Caspian, factories in Murmansk and Baku (for Persian Gulf / Suez resource and BP deliveries from the Western Allies), and also factories railed to Archangel to run off saved oil while the port is frozen (thanks Composer99). It also helps to store 8 oil in Leningrad to keep producing during the siege.

saved oil is a big help to the Russians in lots of places and ways. one saved in Rostov with the Koniev HQ might make the difference between a successful Axis attack and another turn of a large German force stuck on trying to clear the hex. an oil in Sevastopol will give the Axis concern about it someday fueling Russian aircraft for runs at Ploesti (an historic fear of Hitler's). a saved oil in Vladivostok can keep the Russian SUB threat against the Japanese alive. as much oil as you can sock away in Siberia can help keep those railed factories building units. and lastly, the West can ship in as much oil as they can build a convoy line for over each summer to the major port at Archangel.

Posted: **Sat Nov 13, 2010 12:20 pm**

ORIGINAL: brian brian

you don't simply retreat straight back to the Urals. you carefully choose which units the Axis can attack, and where. the goal is to keep your HQ (even rail moving the slow ones) and ARM and MECH as long as you possibly can, hopefully all the way back to the valley south of the Caucasus and the Volga line in front of the Urals. At those points you have to turn and fight even with the armor. But before that you need to trade in your GARR and INF for railing out factories and impulses of Axis time (and some MIL, but over-reliance on weak MIL can make things too easy for the Germans; it is also key to scrap your 3 and 4 factor units after they are lost). keeping your ARM and MECH alive is a matter of managing your fighter cover well to help keep them from getting ground-struck, and just generally keeping them out of range of the Stukas at least. To do that you have to move them backwards, which is a retreat. two ARM/MECH units in a clear hex, outside of Stuka range, are a strong defense, especially when they can only be attacked from two hexes, and are unlikely to even be attacked while the Axis is also busy reducing your cities full of infantry. all that changes as soon as those tanks are without enough Fighter cover and within range of too many Axis bombers - watch carefully for strong Axis LND3.

trying to maintain a strong solid line in front of the Axis for too long allows them to use their air superiority and blitz bonuses (smart Panzer commanders change Shatter results to Retreat results to keep the Russian units from the safety of the production spiral) to destroy your units too fast for you to replace them. you will lose units no matter what; the key is to keep your best units until the Axis forces start to thin out as they have to divide their efforts on to the many strategic axes that are key to the long-term Russian defense - Leningrad, Archangel, the rail lines to the Urals (Saratov and Kuybyshev are key hexes now), the Turkish border and then Baku, and the Crimea.

and once the front stabilizes on those various axes, yes it is true that Russia is resource limited. key aids then are convoys in the Caspian, factories in Murmansk and Baku (for Persian Gulf / Suez resource and BP deliveries from the Western Allies), and also factories railed to Archangel to run off saved oil while the port is frozen (thanks Composer99). It also helps to store 8 oil in Leningrad to keep producing during the siege.

saved oil is a big help to the Russians in lots of places and ways. one saved in Rostov with the Koniev HQ might make the difference between a successful Axis attack and another turn of a large German force stuck on trying to clear the hex. an oil in Sevastopol will give the Axis concern about it someday fueling Russian aircraft for runs at Ploesti (an historic fear of Hitler's). a saved oil in Vladivostok can keep the Russian SUB threat against the Japanese alive. as much oil as you can sock away in Siberia can help keep those railed factories building units. and lastly, the West can ship in as much oil as they can build a convoy line for over each summer to the major port at Archangel.

Thank you. [&o]

Posted: **Sat Jan 08, 2011 9:49 am**

I have been working on USSR border claims, in which the USSR needs to decide:
(1) whether to demand the Finnish borderlands,
(2) whether to demand Bessarabia,
(3) whether to move into Poland, and
(4) whether to occupy the Baltic states of Latvia, Estonia, and Lithuania.

I have been concentrating on the first part of CC 5 Make USSR border claims and whether to move into Eastern Poland, se below. In a normal WIF game the USSR usually claims Eastern Poland in the second or third allied impulse Sep/Oct 1939. And in many ways it seams as the base rule enough to make a solid WIF play, but it could be made stronger by applying the modifiers. There are pros and cons of doing that, could gain stronger play against the worst case, the risk of the AI making missing the chance to take Eastern Poland.
And as always any tips of what I have missed is welcome. I plan to post a simplified version of the script later.

CC 5 Make USSR border claims AI

Eastern Poland

Advantages:
- This gives the USSR an immensely increased buffer zone before a possible Barbarossa attack.
- Enables the claim of Baltic States.
- Internment of Polish Units for Commonwealth.
- Gives the USSR pressure against Rumania and the possibility to outflank Rumania during a denied claim of Bessarabia and the following war.

Disadvantages:
- US Entry hit and the chit values might be high.
- Any Allied/Polish Units in Eastern Poland are destroyed/interned and possible leaving a whole in the Polish defense line and/or stopping Polish airplanes from internment.
- Polish Units might need supply from Bret-Litovsk, Lvov or Vilna.
- The ability for an Eastern Poland gambit Strategy lost. When German attacks in Poland are stalled (ex bad attack dice, stormy weather, or too few units due to a France first strategy) and the border with the USSR could be beyond where German garrison is and going first in Jan/Feb 1940 enables the USSR breaking the pact and possible DOW on Germany.

The base rule whether to occupy Eastern Poland is decided by:
• The action has not been taken.
• The pre conditions are meet, (Poland has not been conquered,The USSR land movement step)
• Any USSR land unit has range to enter the region.
• The USSR can reserve one land move for Eastern Poland.
• There is at least one US entry chit in the Ge/It pool and one chit can be reserved for Eastern Poland.
• It’s the second allied impulse of Sep/Oct 39 or later.

Whether to occupy Eastern Poland decision is modified by:
• Is conquest of Poland imminent?
• Is any Allied/Polish Units in Eastern Poland vital to the Polish defense and not intended for Internment?
• Is any Polish Air Units in Eastern Poland stopped from internment/protecting the Lodz/Warsaw?
• Is the supply from Bret-Litovsk, Lvov or Vilna needed for Polish Units?
• Are German attacks in Poland stalled?
• Is there a risk for a pass/total pass the next allied impulse?
• Is the claim of Bessarabia imminent?
• Is the weather bad?
• Are the US Entry chit values in the Ge/It pool high?

Posted: **Sat Jan 08, 2011 2:19 pm**

The base rule whether to occupy Eastern Poland is decided by:
(1) It’s the second allied impulse of Sep/Oct 39 or later.
(2) The action has not been taken.
(3) The USSR doesn’t elect to pass. (Options for “Neutral Major powers” are “Pass” or “Combined action” right?)
(4) The USSR has one land unit that has range to enter into Eastern Poland.
(5) The pre conditions are meet, (Poland has not been conquered, and it is the USSR land movement step)
(6) There is at least one US entry chit in the Ge/It pool that can be used for the entry action Eastern Poland. (If you accord the same WiF rules for human players to the AI should the AI know this?)

Whether to occupy Eastern Poland is deception is modified by:
(1) Is conquest of Poland imminent? Or are German attacks in Poland stalled? (The situation should be one or the other.)
(2) Is the weather bad? (This effects #1.)
(3) Are any Allied/Polish Units in Eastern Poland vital to the Polish defense and not intended for Internment?
(4) Are any Polish Air Units in Eastern Poland stopped from internment/protecting the Lodz/Warsaw?
(5) Is the supply from Bret-Litovsk, Lvov or Vilna needed for Polish Units?
(6) Is there a risk for a pass/total pass the next allied impulse? (I’m just wondering why this is important?)
(7) Is the claim of Bessarabia imminent?
(8) Are the US Entry chit values in the Ge/It pool high? (If you accord the same WiF rules for human players to the AI should the AI know this?)

Does this agree with your prioritization of conditions?

Posted: **Sat Jan 08, 2011 3:16 pm**

(6) There is at least one US entry chit in the Ge/It pool that can be used for the entry action Eastern Poland. (If you accord the same WiF rules for human players to the AI should the AI know this?)
(8) Are the US Entry chit values in the Ge/It pool high? (If you accord the same WiF rules for human players to the AI should the AI know this?)

the us entry chit value are hidden. so the AI should not know the value

ONLY US know the entry level

Posted: **Sat Jan 08, 2011 3:52 pm**

ORIGINAL: michaelbaldur

(6) There is at least one US entry chit in the Ge/It pool that can be used for the entry action Eastern Poland. (If you accord the same WiF rules for human players to the AI should the AI know this?)
(8) Are the US Entry chit values in the Ge/It pool high? (If you accord the same WiF rules for human players to the AI should the AI know this?)

the us entry chit value are hidden. so the AI should not know the value

ONLY US know the entry level

The AI plays all the allied nations and therefore all the allied nations will know the US entry.

Besides, the rule just forbidds the US player to show anyone the marks. It never forbidds the US player to tell anyone.

Posted: **Sun Jan 09, 2011 6:42 am**

ORIGINAL: Extraneous
(6) Is there a risk for a pass/total pass the next allied impulse? (I’m just wondering why this is important?)

This is because if all Allies pass, then Russia can't occupy East Poland that impulse, and yet Warsaw and Lodz may have fallen and if the turn ends, then Poland gets conquered and the Russians lose the ability to occupy East Poland in that event - usually viewed as a significant disadvantage.

Posted: **Sun Jan 09, 2011 7:20 pm**

The base rule whether to occupy Eastern Poland is decided by:
• The action has not been taken.
• The pre conditions are meet, (Poland has not been conquered,The USSR land movement step)
• Any USSR land unit has range to enter the region.
• The USSR can reserve one land move for Eastern Poland.
• There is at least one US entry chit in the Ge/It pool and one chit can be reserved for Eastern Poland.
• It’s the second allied impulse of Sep/Oct 39 or later.

Since I didn't involve myself much in this AI thing I don't understand for what purpose this script is supposed to run: If no USSR land unit has range to enter the region, then should this script tell the USSR needs to move a unit closer, or is this script just for evaluating what to do exactly right "now."
_or to take it a bit more further: Is this script used to evaluate what it will take to implement this action, or is that handled by some other planning method?

Posted: **Sun Jan 09, 2011 7:49 pm**

ORIGINAL: ullern

The base rule whether to occupy Eastern Poland is decided by:
• The action has not been taken.
• The pre conditions are meet, (Poland has not been conquered,The USSR land movement step)
• Any USSR land unit has range to enter the region.
• The USSR can reserve one land move for Eastern Poland.
• There is at least one US entry chit in the Ge/It pool and one chit can be reserved for Eastern Poland.
• It’s the second allied impulse of Sep/Oct 39 or later.

Since I didn't involve myself much in this AI thing I don't understand for what purpose this script is supposed to run: If no USSR land unit has range to enter the region, then should this script tell the USSR needs to move a unit closer, or is this script just for evaluating what to do exactly right "now."
_or to take it a bit more further: Is this script used to evaluate what it will take to implement this action, or is that handled by some other planning method?

The AIO (AI Opponent) Commander in Chief (CIC) decision maker decidesa bunch of stuff:
CIC := TCommanderInChief(Self);;

case TaskIndex of
1: CIC.EvalUSEntryOptions;

2: CIC.DecDOW;

3: CIC.DecPeaceUSSRJapan;

4: CIC.DecMutualPeace;

5: CIC.DecMakeBorderClaim;

6: CIC.DecRespondBorderClaim;

7: CIC.DecBalkans;

8: CIC.DecUkraine;

9: CIC.DecAlignMinors;

10: CIC.DecMinorControl;

11: CIC.DecSpoils;

12: CIC.DecVichy;

13: CIC.DecLiberation;

14: CIC.DecSurrender;

15: CIC.DecNeutralityPacts;

16: ; // CIC.DecMinorSetup: Set up minor country units.

17: ; // CIC.DecMajorSetup: Set up units at scenario start.

#5 is for all the border claims that are possible. Most of them are by the USSR. Here are my notes on CC5:

CC 5 Make USSR border claims (1 In)
The USSR needs to decide:
(1) whether to demand the Finnish borderlands,
(2) whether to demand Bessarabia,
(3) whether to move into Poland, and
(4) whether to occupy the Baltic states of Latvia, Estonia, and Lithuania.

Whether and when the 1st decision is made depends on the strategic plan.

The 2nd decision partly depends on what Germany does in the Balkans.

The 1 In indicates that these are easy decisions to make (1) and that the CIC initiates the decision - it does not have to be made.

The script just evaluates "what to do" this impulse so information can be provided as to what Action should be taken in the Choose Action phase. Later a Field Marshal will decide whether to make the land move or not ( in the Land Movement phase) depending on the priority for making the move to occupy Eastern Poland/the Baltic States, versus all the other uses for the land move.

Posted: **Mon Jan 10, 2011 2:20 pm**

I am not picking on you.

Your post shows you are giving hard consideration on what you would like from an AI and I would like to commend you for your efforts.

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

ORIGINAL: Extraneous
(6) Is there a risk for a pass/total pass the next allied impulse? (I’m just wondering why this is important?)

This is because if all Allies pass, then Russia can't occupy East Poland that impulse, and yet Warsaw and Lodz may have fallen and if the turn ends, then Poland gets conquered and the Russians lose the ability to occupy East Poland in that event - usually viewed as a significant disadvantage.

10. Choosing Actions
You must choose an action for each major power on your side. Each type of action will affect what that major power can do in the rest of the action stage. You can choose one action type in one impulse and a different type in the next impulse of the same turn.

10.1 Action types
If you are a neutral major power, you must choose either a pass or a combined action. The only exception is that Germany may instead choose a land action during the first impulse of Sep/Oct 1939.

Note: the rule states each major power chooses an action. Even if all the other neutral/active major power players (AI or human) choose to pass the USSR (AI or human) would still have to choose an action.

13.3.1 Entry markers
The US entry level is changed by the entry markers you draw. You will have an entry level against Japan and another against Germany and Italy. This is explained in “9.4 US entry”.

Only you will know your entry levels, although your opponents will make guesses based on the entry options you choose and may learn some information from intelligence operations (option 63: see 22.1). (Option 63 will not be used in MWiF)

You can look at your own markers after you have committed them to a particular entry pool but you can’t show them to anyone else (even on your own side).

No, it doesn’t say the US player can’t tell anyone. But if you give the AI the ability to know more than it should than if it were a human player it will affect 13.3.3 US entry actions.

For Shannon V. Okeets:

In AI/human multi-player games how will the AI handle being assigned multi-major powers as “individual major powers” or “as a single major power group”?

Will a human player have the same information as the AI in reguards to US entry markers?

Posted: **Mon Jan 10, 2011 4:40 pm**

When you play 2-player WiF, the Allied player knows the values...

I really can't think of a good reason not to take Eastern Poland. Even if the US has the 5 chit, or two or three of them in MWiF....they might also draw a whole lot of 0 chits in 1940. The best thought supporting it might be if the Germans roll several low #s in land combat in Sep/Oct, but then they might also roll high on a desperation attack on Warsaw on the Nov/Dec turn and then roll a 1 to end the turn. Playing for the USSR DoW in J/F 40 is a high-risk, high-reward style that could just lead a group of human players to start over most games, and probably so in a Human/AI game too. Maybe for variety the AI could do this on a very low probability. Some Germans do get a bit greedy on the first turn, attacking Poland, Yugoslavia, Denmark and the Netherlands all at once; that might be a situation to consider in the logic.

Posted: **Tue Jan 11, 2011 11:04 am**

ORIGINAL: Extraneous

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

ORIGINAL: Extraneous
(6) Is there a risk for a pass/total pass the next allied impulse? (I’m just wondering why this is important?)

This is because if all Allies pass, then Russia can't occupy East Poland that impulse, and yet Warsaw and Lodz may have fallen and if the turn ends, then Poland gets conquered and the Russians lose the ability to occupy East Poland in that event - usually viewed as a significant disadvantage.

10. Choosing Actions
You must choose an action for each major power on your side. Each type of action will affect what that major power can do in the rest of the action stage. You can choose one action type in one impulse and a different type in the next impulse of the same turn.

10.1 Action types
If you are a neutral major power, you must choose either a pass or a combined action. The only exception is that Germany may instead choose a land action during the first impulse of Sep/Oct 1939.

Note: the rule states each major power chooses an action. Even if all the other neutral/active major power players (AI or human) choose to pass the USSR (AI or human) would still have to choose an action.[/b]

The point here is that whether 2-player or multi-player the Allies should try to act in concert, and if the decision is made that, overall, a Pass by all major powers is in their joint best interest, then the Russian player does not act alone in this sense. Or perhaps a Pass by all but one is a good idea and the one that does move should be the one with highest priority need - and this might be France, not Russia.

As the Allies I will always look at a Pass with all but one power early on in the game when the turn ends on a Zero, because a one in ten chance is infinitely better than a one in zero chance...

Posted: **Tue Jan 11, 2011 4:34 pm**

With regards to the AI knowing chit values, I concur that since there is one AIO controlling an entire side, the USSR AIO is allowed to know US entry chit values (being equivalent to there being a single Allied human player).

If this were not the case, the AIO would not be eligible to know chit values; Extraneous' reading of the rule is correct in that light.

With regards to the considerations:

• Any USSR land unit has range to enter the region.
• The USSR can reserve one land move for Eastern Poland.

I would say the USSR must have a unit in range to occupy Eastern Poland from the start of the game (whether they intend to or not), and as precious as 5 land moves an impulse is, in 1939 it's not like the USSR has that many land units or wars going on so it damn well better reserve a land move to do the deed.

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