Matrix Games Forums

Posted: **Mon Sep 09, 2013 1:18 pm**

Dan,

Sorry to hear about your father's accident and his injury. Pleased that he seems to be making a recovery. He sounds like he's lived a very full life and that your perception of this-and the weighting of this in your announcement above-shows your 'head is screwed on right'. Life is what we make of it, not just the number of years one lives. Mortality is inescapable in the long run. Live life!

Posted: **Mon Sep 09, 2013 1:23 pm**

Andre, thanks! Ah, the reality of: "It is appointed unto man once to die...."

Posted: **Mon Sep 09, 2013 1:46 pm**

Sorry to hear about your Dad's accident Canoerebel, glad that he is improving [:)]

Ha, I leave the forum for a few weeks and see that you have overtaken Greyjoy's post count, I think that this AAR has fulfilled its mission and you can retire honorably [:D][:D][:D]

Posted: **Mon Sep 09, 2013 2:01 pm**

CR,

I just reached 11/44 in my PBEM and I´m still suffering a serious fighter shortage. This is quite a limiting factor on offensive operations... Just a heads up so you know what's in store. As the allies I don´t think I will ever be able to fight an attritional air war. Not until I can start bombing factories or they have to shut down from lack of HI.

Posted: **Mon Sep 09, 2013 2:25 pm**

I've been through this before, but let me tell you what I'd expect now.

The Allies have done very well in the air war - winning it thus far according to my estimation. The Japanese have lost 50% more aircraft than the Allies (7,500 to 5,000). Many of those losses were Tojos in the long and bitter airwar over Akyab and Ramree Island, during which the Allies developed topnotch pilots.

I'd thereofre expect - given what's happened thus far and the end-of-1942 date - that the Allies could afford to stand toe-to-toe with Japan in an air war. Not that the Allies would be guaranteed to win; not that Japan couldn't perform better; but not a onesided show in which the Allies have no chance. I think (but I'm not positive) that's what's about to happen. Perhaps through good pilots and the massive level of air support and the decent numbers of P-40K the Allies will be able to withstand the all-out air battle. I hope so.

You might not forgive me for being blunt, but the Allied invasion of Sumatra was titanically successful. John was negligent in the extreme in leaving such an important area unguarded and without patrols. The Allies have landed a massive army there, with massive support, fully supplied, huge infrastructure, well equipped and supported navy, nearly 900 mines, etc. By every measure the Allies should be able to hold and take advantage of a lodgement so vast. If, however, the air war is the limiting factor that prevents this because it's ridiculously lopsided, I just don't have the heart to continue the game.

I want a game in which the Allies in 1942 can take chances and turn the war against Japan. If the air war prevents that - or makes it all but impossible - so that the Allies have to be much more careful, an exciting element of the game is missing.

I agree that adjustments to the game are warranted to give Japan the ability to fight late - that's in the best interest of all players. I just don't think it's a good idea if the air war is so onesided in 1942 that it essentially prevents the Allies from doing things that otherwise make perfect sense.

Posted: **Mon Sep 09, 2013 2:34 pm**

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

I've been through this before, but let me tell you what I'd expect now.

The Allies have done very well in the air war - winning it thus far according to my estimation. The Japanese have lost 50% more aircraft than the Allies (7,500 to 5,000). Many of those losses were Tojos in the long and bitter airwar over Akyab and Ramree Island, during which the Allies developed topnotch pilots.

I'd thereofre expect - given what's happened thus far and the end-of-1942 date - that the Allies could afford to stand toe-to-toe with Japan in an air war. Not that the Allies would be guaranteed to win; not that Japan couldn't perform better; but not a onesided show in which the Allies have no chance. I think (but I'm not positive) that's what's about to happen. Perhaps through good pilots and the massive level of air support and the decent numbers of P-40K the Allies will be able to withstand the all-out air battle. I hope so.

You might not forgive me for being blunt, but the Allied invasion of Sumatra was titanically successful. John was negligent in the extreme in leaving such an important area unguarded and without patrols. The Allies have landed a massive army there, with massive support, fully supplied, huge infrastructure, well equipped and supported navy, nearly 900 mines, etc. By every measure the Allies should be able to hold and take advantage of a lodgement so vast. If, however, the air war is the limiting factor that prevents this because it's ridiculously lopsided, I just don't have the heart to continue the game.

I want a game in which the Allies in 1942 can take chances and turn the war against Japan. If the air war prevents that - or makes it all but impossible - so that the Allies have to be much more careful, an exciting element of the game is missing.

I agree that adjustments to the game are warranted to give Japan the ability to fight late - that's in the best interest of all players. I just don't think it's a good idea if the air war is so onesided in 1942 that it essentially prevents the Allies from doing things that otherwise make perfect sense.

With Crack pilots you can stand.

Remember my game with Rader? In the Solomons, in early 1943, he sent wave after wave...and he lost THOUSANDS of planes. At the end I had won that war of attrition in that scenario.

Posted: **Mon Sep 09, 2013 2:48 pm**

Who can forget the epic GJ air battles over Karachi, the Solomons and Hokkaido? Nobody shall ever forget!

Posted: **Mon Sep 09, 2013 2:52 pm**

Hope your Dad pulls through. I will be lucky to still be breathing at his age, never mind driving!

With regards to the air war, my opinion is he can produce virtually limitless numbers of fighters and trained pilots, so whilst 1:1 sounds like a good exchange in 42, imo it won't get much better later in the game, maybe 2:1 but even then you will have to husband your fighter pools. I'm finding that out the hard way in my Allied game.

Posted: **Mon Sep 09, 2013 3:07 pm**

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

I've been through this before, but let me tell you what I'd expect now.

The Allies have done very well in the air war - winning it thus far according to my estimation. The Japanese have lost 50% more aircraft than the Allies (7,500 to 5,000). Many of those losses were Tojos in the long and bitter airwar over Akyab and Ramree Island, during which the Allies developed topnotch pilots.

I'd thereofre expect - given what's happened thus far and the end-of-1942 date - that the Allies could afford to stand toe-to-toe with Japan in an air war. Not that the Allies would be guaranteed to win; not that Japan couldn't perform better; but not a onesided show in which the Allies have no chance. I think (but I'm not positive) that's what's about to happen. Perhaps through good pilots and the massive level of air support and the decent numbers of P-40K the Allies will be able to withstand the all-out air battle. I hope so.

You might not forgive me for being blunt, but the Allied invasion of Sumatra was titanically successful. John was negligent in the extreme in leaving such an important area unguarded and without patrols. The Allies have landed a massive army there, with massive support, fully supplied, huge infrastructure, well equipped and supported navy, nearly 900 mines, etc. By every measure the Allies should be able to hold and take advantage of a lodgement so vast. If, however, the air war is the limiting factor that prevents this because it's ridiculously lopsided, I just don't have the heart to continue the game.

I want a game in which the Allies in 1942 can take chances and turn the war against Japan. If the air war prevents that - or makes it all but impossible - so that the Allies have to be much more careful, an exciting element of the game is missing.

I agree that adjustments to the game are warranted to give Japan the ability to fight late - that's in the best interest of all players. I just don't think it's a good idea if the air war is so onesided in 1942 that it essentially prevents the Allies from doing things that otherwise make perfect sense.

The air war is what it is. If I may be blunt this is a self-inflicted wound. You agreed to HRs which give him the ability to use his already vast advantages in numbers and early quality. If you were bombing Palembang this week, even by day, your situation up north would be different and the KB would be doing different things.

I've also got to suggest, gently I hope, CR, that you also went into a scenario specifically designed to advantage Japan against the guy who wrote it, while you refused to even read threads about what it does. Yes, a lot of the changes are to the navy, but not all. And even those make a Japan player able to play more aggressively.

The landing on Sumatra was masterful. It makes my pitiful efforts in the summer of 1942 look just that. But without strategic bombing, and without a full-scale "Nemo" effort on Malaysia in tandem to isolate Singers and mess up those big air fields over there, you were destined to enter a war of attrition. And it's here.

Posted: **Mon Sep 09, 2013 3:19 pm**

The landing itself was a wonderful and unexpected ruse, it's actual value is so far unrealised because of the HR induced inability to reduce Palembang to ashes and the lack of major losses to John. With PDU on you should lose the airwar at this stage due to the lack of depth in your pools coupled with the Tojo, although that window will change in the next couple of months.

What's interesting is whether the Japanese can kick out your LCUs, after your '43 TOE upgrades I bet it won't be possible but maybe before....

This move was never going to be a quick war-winner but it sets up a very very nasty position for mid-43 if it isn't contained, and that's where the real value lies now.

Posted: **Mon Sep 09, 2013 3:23 pm**

kfnoel, I agree with you.

Bullwinkle, I don't agree with "the air war is what it is." RA doesn't have a material impact on the air war, to the best of my knowledge. More importantly, it's the fundamental aspect of the air war that I'm addressing. I contend that the Allied pools need to be deeper in '42 in order for the game to realize it's full potential (Heretical Statement!). It's good to make Japan stronger from '42 through '45, but don't leave the Allies crippled in the air war in '42. Unnecessary and counterproductive from a gaming standpoint, I contend.

Posted: **Mon Sep 09, 2013 3:27 pm**

ORIGINAL: kjnoel

The landing itself was a wonderful and unexpected ruse, it's actual value is so far unrealised because of the HR induced inability to reduce Palembang to ashes and the lack of major losses to John. With PDU on you should lose the airwar at this stage due to the lack of depth in your pools coupled with the Tojo, although that window will change in the next couple of months.

What's interesting is whether the Japanese can kick out your LCUs, after your '43 TOE upgrades I bet it won't be possible but maybe before....

This move was never going to be a quick war-winner but it sets up a very very nasty position for mid-43 if it isn't contained, and that's where the real value lies now.

I agree.

It's a radical notion around here, but why must the Allies oppose a Japanese bombing campaign at Sabang? Every attack does not have to meet with a like defense. Dig in at Sabang, move in more AA if possible, pull out all ships, pull out all aircraft, and just take it. Make him come dig you out with a spoon. The US Army and USMC pools will always be decent on infantry squads. So long as Sabang has supply take the hit. He's at long range from a lot of his bomber bases. Let him eat ops losses and flak losses. Let the Allied fighter pools heal. Occasionally sneak in a CAP for 1-2 days, then disappear. Make him keep escorting strikes; more ops losses, more supply eaten.

Posted: **Mon Sep 09, 2013 3:32 pm**

Sabang is clear terrain. Unopposed Japanese bombardment runs will make short work of the base and all its supply. Hence it must be protected by combat ships that must, in turn, be covered by air.

Posted: **Mon Sep 09, 2013 3:35 pm**

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

kfnoel, I agree with you.

Bullwinkle, I don't agree with "the air war is what it is." RA doesn't have a material impact on the air war, to the best of my knowledge. More importantly, it's the fundamental aspect of the air war that I'm addressing. I contend that the Allied pools need to be deeper in '42 in order for the game to realize it's full potential (Heretical Statement!). It's good to make Japan stronger from '42 through '45, but don't leave the Allies crippled in the air war in '42. Unnecessary and counterproductive from a gaming standpoint, I contend.

There are important differences in the air war on the naval side in RA. If you don't know that by now that's a problem.

But let me say again--you "broke" the devs' model with HRs. If he had to put 300-500 fighters at Palembang, Oosthaven, Merak, and Benk to save his oil he would have a much richer problem. Not to mention Djambi, Medan, Miri, Brunei . . . You volunteered to let him max his offensive air effort with no need to guard his rear. Without strategic war an invasion of Sumatra in 1942 is much, much less useful, and if it were to be done at all I'd argue Benk should have been the landing point so a drive overland on PBang could work. Might work. With Sabang you have nice LOCs to Ceylon, but what else? What can you threaten that he absolutely must have, right now, in late 1942? That's one reason Nemo said what he said. There are things on Malaysia he "must" have. To run resources home. To work his will in Burma. Sabang by itself can bleed him, but it doesn't knock him over. I know you know the story of Masada and the Romans. Held for a long time. But Masada fell.

Posted: **Mon Sep 09, 2013 3:37 pm**

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

Sabang is clear terrain. Unopposed Japanese bombardment runs will make short work of the base and all its supply. Hence it must be protected by combat ships that must, in turn, be covered by air.

Then in January 1943 you probably lose a war of attrition there.

Edit: OTOH, if you're prepared to lose 200-300 xAKs you can keep Sabang in supply. That's about 10% of your xAK OOB.

Posted: **Mon Sep 09, 2013 3:52 pm**

Not sure why in the world John would have to post hundreds of fighters over Palembang. Allied 4EB are present in limited numbers and fighters don't have the range for escort. From what I've seen, John could easily defend P'Bang and have scads leftover.

There are many other places that it doesn't make sense to invade if the Allies can't fight a fair air war in late '42.

My point simply is that the Allied replacement pools are too low. This wouldn't be tough to address. Big deal, right?

Posted: **Mon Sep 09, 2013 4:20 pm**

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

Not sure why in the world John would have to post hundreds of fighters over Palembang. Allied 4EB are present in limited numbers and fighters don't have the range for escort. From what I've seen, John could easily defend P'Bang and have scads leftover.

There are many other places that it doesn't make sense to invade if the Allies can't fight a fair air war in late '42.

My point simply is that the Allied replacement pools are too low. This wouldn't be tough to address. Big deal, right?

I've managed to put at least a dent in Japanese oil and fuel production by the summer of 1942 with a lot fewer 4Es than you have. I don't have escorts either. You just eat the damage and losses and drive on. And he wouldn't need hundreds at PBang. He'd need hundreds at all his POL bases combined.

I just think it's a bit of sour grapes in your what? eighth PBEM game to be suddenly noticing the Allies have weak pools in 1942. I understand you're frustrated. I hear ya, brotha. Every day as I try to get not one, but two (!!!) P38s aloft somewhere to face 60 Oscars I curse the lack of Allied production control. But it is what it is.

Posted: **Mon Sep 09, 2013 4:21 pm**

Why not suggest that to John for the next version of RA? I know he has added "emergency" Allied CVE conversions due to the increased Japanese naval building plans. No reason that the Allies couldn't have brought more aircraft to the party if Japan was more of an issue (ie less of Europe first).

Posted: **Mon Sep 09, 2013 4:23 pm**

Geez, Moose, it's not sudden and it's not sour grapes. I've made this same thing know before as have other players. I'm not trashing the game as a whole. I'm simply saying a modest boost in Allied aircraft pools would benefit the game as a whole. Sour grapes? Come on.

Posted: **Mon Sep 09, 2013 4:32 pm**

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

Geez, Moose, it's not sudden and it's not sour grapes. I've made this same thing know before as have other players. I'm not trashing the game as a whole. I'm simply saying a modest boost in Allied aircraft pools would benefit the game as a whole. Sour grapes? Come on.

You say tomato, I say eggplant. [:)]

Regardless, what are your intentions re Sabang? Whatever you think of my comments on air power please note what I said about xAKs. You CAN stay if you want, as long as you want, and without feeding ships and planes into the grinder. Until you have Corsairs and Hellcats and Spits. It's just a matter of priorities. For him too of course.

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