Matrix Games Forums

Posted: **Thu Sep 12, 2013 9:32 pm**

ORIGINAL: CrusssDaddy

paulderynck

What a curious and destructive response. I can understand harsh words directed my way, but what is the source of such venom inflicted on someone who has been and desires fervently to remain a supporter of MWiF? This is baffling. Why does reasoned and polite opinion wound you so personally?

You of all people accuse me of being destructive???

Posted: **Thu Sep 12, 2013 10:13 pm**

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

ORIGINAL: CrusssDaddy

paulderynck

What a curious and destructive response. I can understand harsh words directed my way, but what is the source of such venom inflicted on someone who has been and desires fervently to remain a supporter of MWiF? This is baffling. Why does reasoned and polite opinion wound you so personally?

You of all people accuse me of being destructive???

I think any genuine supporter of this project who endeavors to address persistent criticisms and engage in dialogue designed to grow or at least stabilize the market for MWiF must look at your response to Numy and say, "WTF?!?!? Whose team is this guy on?"

I think maybe you're worked up about me or maybe some other s**t went down today unrelated to computer gaming and you took it out on Numy. But as it stands, you do a grave disservice to the fellows with whom you stand shoulder to shoulder and your outburst diminishes their work as well as your own in the past.

Posted: **Thu Sep 12, 2013 10:23 pm**

Shannon - I really like your idea of being able to shift between email and netplay. I think that will help to resolve the back-and-forth decisions that are made during combat phases. If that's not done then I think there almost has to be some minimal AI to make those decisions so that a bazillion files don't have to be passed back and forth? or a way for players to pre-set "rules" for those decisions so that they are made automatically without passing a file around for each decision...something like "always take naval hits on the lowest defense value non-CV ship involved in the combat", etc.

To the rest of the guys debating about whether to buy the game because it has no AI, keep in mind that this is a fairly niche release as are most wargames. I don't think anyone involved here is going to make a ton of money on this thing.

If you choose not to buy it, I think you are also reducing the chance that the game will be improved after release, that it will be updated when new WIF rulesets/revisions/errata are released, and that similar projects will be done.

Buy it or not - it's your choice but I'd urge you not to forsake buying this game because you are trying to make a moral stand of some kind - if you'd play it vs other people PBEM then I hope you will buy it and support the game. We'd all like an AI but I doubt any AI can compete with humans very well in this game.

Posted: **Fri Sep 13, 2013 12:33 am**

ORIGINAL: mjk428

ORIGINAL: warspite1

ORIGINAL: CrusssDaddy

Despite being announced by Matrix as a project supported with professional resources, it's been clear for the better part of a decade that development was in fact a hobbyist effort. Is it really surprising, at this late date, that the marketing/sales/distribution are likewise amateur hour?
warspite1

Oh goody....I wondered when this moron would make his ridiculous presence felt...[8|]

He makes an accurate and valid point and all you do is make a personal attack.

First, I'm thrilled to know that I will play this game in the slow month of winter here in Québec, Canada.

Secondly I think warspite1 have a fixation on Crussdaddy and that he sees any negative opinion as a personnal attack or as a proof of an immature behavior. This is childish of a couple of white knight here on this forum and its unfortunate.

Third point: I think that the devil ( Crussdaddy ) is right and this game was at least partially very amateurish. Come on guys, 10 years just get off your pink glass and drink the coffee! ( Ok this makes no sense ).

Fourth opinion: An argument like "Just don't buy this game" is as idiotic as calling someone a moron.

Pochepiller
Québec
Canada

Posted: **Fri Sep 13, 2013 1:17 am**

ORIGINAL: jjdenver

Shannon - I really like your idea of being able to shift between email and netplay. I think that will help to resolve the back-and-forth decisions that are made during combat phases. If that's not done then I think there almost has to be some minimal AI to make those decisions so that a bazillion files don't have to be passed back and forth? or a way for players to pre-set "rules" for those decisions so that they are made automatically without passing a file around for each decision...something like "always take naval hits on the lowest defense value non-CV ship involved in the combat", etc.

To the rest of the guys debating about whether to buy the game because it has no AI, keep in mind that this is a fairly niche release as are most wargames. I don't think anyone involved here is going to make a ton of money on this thing.

If you choose not to buy it, I think you are also reducing the chance that the game will be improved after release, that it will be updated when new WIF rulesets/revisions/errata are released, and that similar projects will be done.

Buy it or not - it's your choice but I'd urge you not to forsake buying this game because you are trying to make a moral stand of some kind - if you'd play it vs other people PBEM then I hope you will buy it and support the game. We'd all like an AI but I doubt any AI can compete with humans very well in this game.

I started designing the PBEM with idea of Standing Orders. Basically these are encoded conditional statements that a player enters for his units to be executed when he is the non-phasing side. Then when the phasing side makes decisions (e.g., moves air units), the AI Assistant (as opposed to an AI Opponent) follows the standing orders on behalf of the player on the non-phasing side (e.g., whether to intercept or not). This way the phasing side player can continue making his moves without waiting for an exchange of emails.

I've got this design all laid out and some of the necessary forms for entering Standing Orders coded. I think of this as the default solution. Adding in the ability to switch back and forth to NetPlay, would be on top of this.

Posted: **Fri Sep 13, 2013 1:39 am**

pochepiller:

CrusssDaddy is trolling this forum, and has for years. It's as simple as that. If he really just didn't care about the game, he would have stopped commenting long ago.

Posted: **Fri Sep 13, 2013 2:28 am**

It is a strange responce to be sure paulderynck.

I have said repeatedly, that I will buy the game at release if one of two things happen. Matrix prices the game as if it had an AI and provide the AI as a free patch or the intial price is low to resonable for a game that does not have an AI and will never have one. I am sorry if I do not belive in good faith promises any more. Especially with a product with this track record. Just call me jaded lol.

So I may or may not be on a 'buy list' for the game. if I do buy the game, I would have no issue owning up to it and explain why I bought it. I am just saying that at this time time, I have no intention of purchasing the game under the currently planned pricing model. And have provided my detailed reasons as to why. If any of this changes between now and Nov 7th (and I do hope it will) then I will re-evaluate at that point.

For those that have people to actually play with, then this is a great product and can see how excited they could be to ply this game again with their friends. Since I do not a list of people to play with, I want an AI, not just a promise for one.

Posted: **Fri Sep 13, 2013 3:53 am**

ORIGINAL: pochepiller

ORIGINAL: mjk428

ORIGINAL: warspite1

warspite1

Oh goody....I wondered when this moron would make his ridiculous presence felt...[8|]

He makes an accurate and valid point and all you do is make a personal attack.

Secondly I think warspite1 have a fixation on Crussdaddy and that he sees any negative opinion as a personnal attack or as a proof of an immature behavior. This is childish of a couple of white knight here on this forum and its unfortunate.

Third point: I think that the devil ( Crussdaddy ) is right and this game was at least partially very amateurish. Come on guys, 10 years just get off your pink glass and drink the coffee! ( Ok this makes no sense ).

Fourth opinion: An argument like "Just don't buy this game" is as idiotic as calling someone a moron.

Pochepiller
Québec
Canada

warspite1

Thank-you for confirming my point in post 3466.

I do not have a fixation with that troll, however I am - not sure what words sum up the feeling? - baffled? angry? curious? disgusted? - probably filled with pity is as good as any. That a grown man decides he will not buy a product (perfectly fair) but then spends a large part of his life hanging around a forum just to cause trouble is truly pitiful, a very sad existence. To be so bitter and angry that he finds joy in berating on-line a good man who has been through more than one life threatening episode in the last few years - we are talking major illness here - is at best rather in-human.

And why? why do it? Because a game has not come out on time and will not have all the features Matrix originally intended before the enormity of the project became clear. Good grief. THAT is childish, pitiful and just plain sad.

BTW I hardly think calling someone a moron, when they exhibit moronic behaviour is idiotic.

Posted: **Fri Sep 13, 2013 5:36 am**

ORIGINAL: Numdydar

It is a strange responce to be sure paulderynck.

I have said repeatedly, that I will buy the game at release if one of two things happen. Matrix prices the game as if it had an AI and provide the AI as a free patch or the intial price is low to resonable for a game that does not have an AI and will never have one. I am sorry if I do not belive in good faith promises any more. Especially with a product with this track record. Just call me jaded lol.

So I may or may not be on a 'buy list' for the game. if I do buy the game, I would have no issue owning up to it and explain why I bought it. I am just saying that at this time time, I have no intention of purchasing the game under the currently planned pricing model. And have provided my detailed reasons as to why. If any of this changes between now and Nov 7th (and I do hope it will) then I will re-evaluate at that point.

For those that have people to actually play with, then this is a great product and can see how excited they could be to ply this game again with their friends. Since I do not a list of people to play with, I want an AI, not just a promise for one.

Yes you have said this repeatedly.

That is partly why my response was harsh. That and frustration at the kind of ignorance of the situation that is on display here in this thread despite the exact knowledge of what's going on that has been published in the MWiF forum over the last several years. The plain simple facts here are that the development has been a one-man show and it's been that way because otherwise it would not have happened. Period. Folks who believe as you do seem to think that Matrix has a bottomless pit of development funds and an endless supply of developers to throw at a product that - let's face it - does not have the marketing potential of some of the great "successes" of recent times - like Path of Exile, Guild Wars II or Final Fantasy XIV (or whatever number it was when the servers broke).

And when all the twelve year-olds that couldn't play those games RIGHT NOW and have them configured exactly the way THEY wanted - got on their forums and complained bitterly and said they'd never buy and never play - just exactly what did they accomplish?

OK, you've registered your protest and said you won't buy the game. Although now you're waffling with subjective terminology like: "if the initial price is low to reasonable for a game that does not have an AI". What's low to reasonable? $10? $40? $100? What's your criteria for "a game that does not have an AI" as the yardstick? A Chess set? Is your yardstick the same as others who MUST have an AI? You want a guarantee the developer of MWiF will provide an AI post release "in a timely fashion". Keep in mind there are bound to be some bugs. Which should have priority for the developer's time - the AI or bug fixes? Does anyone know beyond all doubt how many bug fixes will be needed and how long an AI for a game of this complexity will take to develop? You do not have a monopoly on the term "reasonable". I submit what is reasonable in terms of a pricing model is precisely what Matrix has said they will do.

So yes I was harsh. But reality is harsh. You registered your protest (repeatedly). You won't buy the game. And I'm sorry but IMO the situation will not be changing to suit you.

Of course one pro-active step toward an AI would be to buy the game and participate in the beta testing of the AI as it is being developed. But it's so much easier to just demand an AI. Just call me jaded lol.

Posted: **Fri Sep 13, 2013 11:12 am**

exactly. everything in this thread for the last 2 days has been water that flowed under the bridge a long time ago.

Now, where the heck is Bo? A fun part about the game coming out will be his game reports when he plays it. I'm sure he is ready to have fun with it.

Posted: **Fri Sep 13, 2013 12:41 pm**

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

ORIGINAL: Numdydar

It is a strange responce to be sure paulderynck.

I have said repeatedly, that I will buy the game at release if one of two things happen. Matrix prices the game as if it had an AI and provide the AI as a free patch or the intial price is low to resonable for a game that does not have an AI and will never have one. I am sorry if I do not belive in good faith promises any more. Especially with a product with this track record. Just call me jaded lol.

So I may or may not be on a 'buy list' for the game. if I do buy the game, I would have no issue owning up to it and explain why I bought it. I am just saying that at this time time, I have no intention of purchasing the game under the currently planned pricing model. And have provided my detailed reasons as to why. If any of this changes between now and Nov 7th (and I do hope it will) then I will re-evaluate at that point.

For those that have people to actually play with, then this is a great product and can see how excited they could be to ply this game again with their friends. Since I do not a list of people to play with, I want an AI, not just a promise for one.
Yes you have said this repeatedly.

That is partly why my response was harsh. That and frustration at the kind of ignorance of the situation that is on display here in this thread despite the exact knowledge of what's going on that has been published in the MWiF forum over the last several years. The plain simple facts here are that the development has been a one-man show and it's been that way because otherwise it would not have happened. Period. Folks who believe as you do seem to think that Matrix has a bottomless pit of development funds and an endless supply of developers to throw at a product that - let's face it - does not have the marketing potential of some of the great "successes" of recent times - like Path of Exile, Guild Wars II or Final Fantasy XIV (or whatever number it was when the servers broke).

And when all the twelve year-olds that couldn't play those games RIGHT NOW and have them configured exactly the way THEY wanted - got on their forums and complained bitterly and said they'd never buy and never play - just exactly what did they accomplish?

OK, you've registered your protest and said you won't buy the game. Although now you're waffling with subjective terminology like: "if the initial price is low to reasonable for a game that does not have an AI". What's low to reasonable? $10? $40? $100? What's your criteria for "a game that does not have an AI" as the yardstick? A Chess set? Is your yardstick the same as others who MUST have an AI? You want a guarantee the developer of MWiF will provide an AI post release "in a timely fashion". Keep in mind there are bound to be some bugs. Which should have priority for the developer's time - the AI or bug fixes? Does anyone know beyond all doubt how many bug fixes will be needed and how long an AI for a game of this complexity will take to develop? You do not have a monopoly on the term "reasonable". I submit what is reasonable in terms of a pricing model is precisely what Matrix has said they will do.

So yes I was harsh. But reality is harsh. You registered your protest (repeatedly). You won't buy the game. And I'm sorry but IMO the situation will not be changing to suit you.

Of course one pro-active step toward an AI would be to buy the game and participate in the beta testing of the AI as it is being developed. But it's so much easier to just demand an AI. Just call me jaded lol.

I also have been following the development of the game for quite a while, so I am fully aware of all the constraints it has been developed under. But you seem to be missing my point so I will try one more time, I COULD CARE LESS ABOUT AN AI.

It is the PRICING STRUCTURE that Martrix has laid out for the game so far that I have an issue with. Matrix is trying to sell us a game without ANY legal obligation to develop an AI at ALL. I would like them to sell the game at a price point wherre they CAN further develop the game yet at the same time have Matrix under a legal obligation to deliver what so far are just words like 'buy the game and turst us to develop an AI.'

As I said before, if Matrix says buy the game at release and there may never be an AI developed for the game, I would be good with that because it CLEARLY lets everyone know the reality of the situation. The way things are now, people (like me) that need (or want) an AI would be buying a game under an assumption that an AI will be developed regardless of how poorly the game sold. Which would not happen imho.

So in this case I am not planning on purchasing the game because of Matrix not being absoultely clear on what everyone will be getting at release. A game that may never have an AI developed.

Posted: **Fri Sep 13, 2013 1:04 pm**

ORIGINAL: Numdydar

...I COULD CARE LESS ABOUT AN AI.

Actually that's an Americanism that is the complete opposite of what you mean. Have a think about it and if you don't believe me, Google "I could care less".

ORIGINAL: Numdydar

Matrix is trying to sell us a game without ANY legal obligation to develop an AI at ALL.

They don't have a legal obligation to develop an AI.

I couldn't be bothered trying to work out exactly what else you are on about because your written expression, grammar and spelling are very poor and frankly it's annoying to read.

Cheers, Neilster

Posted: **Fri Sep 13, 2013 1:14 pm**

ORIGINAL: brian brian

exactly. everything in this thread for the last 2 days has been water that flowed under the bridge a long time ago.

Now, where the heck is Bo? A fun part about the game coming out will be his game reports when he plays it. I'm sure he is ready to have fun with it.

This is a good point -- it's unlike Bo to be away like this. I'm worried. Can someone do a bed-check at the funny farm?

Posted: **Fri Sep 13, 2013 1:19 pm**

ORIGINAL: Neilster

ORIGINAL: Numdydar

...I COULD CARE LESS ABOUT AN AI.

Actually that's an Americanism that is the complete opposite of what you mean. Have a think about it and if you don't believe me, Google "I could care less".

ORIGINAL: Numdydar

Matrix is trying to sell us a game without ANY legal obligation to develop an AI at ALL.

They don't have a legal obligation to develop an AI.

I couldn't be bothered trying to work out exactly what else you are on about because your written expression, grammar and spelling are very poor and frankly it's annoying to read.

Cheers, Neilster

Translation: "I don't have a substantive counterargument to any of the points you have made but I am a grammar Nazi of enthusiastic demeanor, so that shall have to suffice. Depart, ye Unworthy Thinge!"

Posted: **Fri Sep 13, 2013 1:34 pm**

ORIGINAL: CrusssDaddy

ORIGINAL: Neilster

ORIGINAL: Numdydar

...I COULD CARE LESS ABOUT AN AI.

Actually that's an Americanism that is the complete opposite of what you mean. Have a think about it and if you don't believe me, Google "I could care less".

ORIGINAL: Numdydar

Matrix is trying to sell us a game without ANY legal obligation to develop an AI at ALL.

They don't have a legal obligation to develop an AI.

I couldn't be bothered trying to work out exactly what else you are on about because your written expression, grammar and spelling are very poor and frankly it's annoying to read.

Cheers, Neilster

Translation: "I don't have a substantive counterargument to any of the points you have made but I am a grammar Nazi of enthusiastic demeanor, so that shall have to suffice. Depart, ye Unworthy Thinge!"

Actually, I pointed out two flaws in his logic and I genuinely can't be bothered wading through any more of his horribly written posts.

Neilster

Posted: **Fri Sep 13, 2013 1:35 pm**

ORIGINAL: Neilster

ORIGINAL: Numdydar

...I COULD CARE LESS ABOUT AN AI.

Actually that's an Americanism that is the complete opposite of what you mean. Have a think about it and if you don't believe me, Google "I could care less".

ORIGINAL: Numdydar

Matrix is trying to sell us a game without ANY legal obligation to develop an AI at ALL.

They don't have a legal obligation to develop an AI.

I couldn't be bothered trying to work out exactly what else you are on about because your written expression, grammar and spelling are very poor and frankly it's annoying to read.

Cheers, Neilster

I am always trying to improve my writing skills so thank you for letting me know that my 'I could not care less' was an American expression as I was not aware of that.

Would you mind pointing out other sections that you found annoying? My spelling is not that great, but will do a better job of spell checking before posting. I double checked this post just to be sure I did not miss anything.

Thanks in advance for the help.

Posted: **Fri Sep 13, 2013 1:37 pm**

No dude. As I stated above, I can't be bothered. All the best anyway.

Cheers, Neilster

Posted: **Fri Sep 13, 2013 1:43 pm**

ORIGINAL: mjk428

He makes an accurate and valid point and all you do is make a personal attack.

This sounds as a Neville Chamberlain's statement about Mr Hitler's claims over the Sudeten, after some hard words from Winston Spencer were heard in the House of Commons...

Posted: **Fri Sep 13, 2013 2:12 pm**

This is a release for those who do not want an AI opponent. For anyone who feel that MWIF must have a AIO then, unfortunately, this release is not for them and waiting for the version with the AIO might be the prudent option.

I actually thought people would be pleased that Matrix Games decided to release a version without the AIO for a reduced price. [&:]

Posted: **Fri Sep 13, 2013 3:33 pm**

This is good news, Nov 7th...NICE![8D]

It will be a pleasure to be able to start coming back here on a more regular basis...this has not been a pleasant place to visit for a while...

Congrats and thanks to all involved.

Matrix Games Forums

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