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or a Victory class ?

Elco 80' PT boat? [:D]

ORIGINAL: John Lansford

Yamato's fire control was suspect; both the Iowa's and SoDaks had radar guided fire control.  The SoDak or Iowa could control the distance of engagement and keep getting hits on Yamato, who probably couldn't hit the USN ships often enough to make a difference.  I've read that the Iowa had better underwater protection than the SoDaks, but just barely, and the long narrow bow was always a damage control concern since it had no depth at all in the event of a torpedo or penetrating large shell hit.

I don't consider Yamato's fire control rig suspect. Japanese optical equipment was 1st class ,and was backed up by radar, albeit of a more primitive version compared to that fielded on latewar US battleships. Any conceivable night engagement where visibility is limited gives an automatic edge to the USN force at this point of time due to a the latter's Blindfire capability. In a daylight contest against a target she could see, Yamato had an excellent chance of achieving hits and thus "winning". Theoretically, Iowa might control the distance but i don't see this as decisive unless the goal is to escape or evade. I always bear in mind that especially for WWII warships, a single hit can quickly alter the electronic balance. Even the fire from a BB's own guns can sometimes cause havoc with sensitive electronics. Maximum theoretical speed can be similarily impacted quickly.

ORIGINAL: Anthropoid

I find it ironic that guys are arguing that designs that never actually seem to have _DONE_ anything (e.g., as somebody noted above Yamato didn't sink nuthin', Iowa didn't sink nuthin') are "best designs."

Now Mark 7 inflatable rafts on the other hand, those must have "DONE" lots of things in the war. Remember that scene in "A Bridge to Far" . . . "Hail Mary! Full of Grace! . . . Hail Mary! Full of Grace!"

[:D]

Almost always its the more humbler designs that carry the day.

Any conceivable night engagement where visibility is limited gives an automatic edge to the USN force at this point of time due to a the latter's Blindfire capability.

How come we always ignore Japanese anti-radar?

ORIGINAL: Tiornu
How come we always ignore Japanese anti-radar?

Because i'm ignorant in that dept. Please enlighten this poor sap and i promise not to sick FUSOOOOO!!!!!! on you for the near future.......or pull out the lyric sheet for "My Pagoda" from mothballs. [;)]

ORIGINAL: Tiornu

How come we always ignore Japanese anti-radar?

Did they use that at Surigao strait?

I don't know about Surigao. There were definitely chaff shells used at Samar. I don't think anyone's done a serious study on the subject.

What chaffs?! Never heard of IJN having ones. Not sure they even had radar warning system like Naxos and Metox...

Not as advanced as Naxos/Metox, but they certainly had them. ESM is a lot less difficult to implement than ECM. And chaff is hardly difficult to make.

I read report of the US technicall mission to Japan (which was sent there in 1945 to evaluate tech capabilities of japanese army/navy). There were mentioned radar warning detectors, deployment of chaffs and countermeasures, but if I remember correctly, they were still in the test phases when the war ended.

Fletcher class tin cans.

ORIGINAL: m10bob

Fletcher class tin cans.

definitely. and then theres the Gato and Balao fleet boats that i love so much [:D]

the Essex carriers of course, the Iowa battleships

In a daylight contest against a target she could see, Yamato had an excellent chance of achieving hits and thus "winning".

Yamato had a poor chance of winning under any conditions.

At night, Sodak/Iowa fire control was vastly superior to Japanese optical fire control.
In daylight, Sodak/Iowa fire control was vastly superior to Japanese optical fire control.
In heavy fog and squalls, Sodak/Iowa fire control was vastly superior to Japanese optical fire control.
In a typhoon, blizzard, rounding Cape Horn, or on the edge of the Maelstrom or Perdition's Flames, Sodak/Iowa fire control was vastly superior to Japanese optical fire control.
In low Earth orbit, beyond the Kuiper belt, .... etc etc.

Yamato's only real hope would have been to surprise an Iowa or SoDak refueling or in port.

ORIGINAL: rtrapasso


Vizzini: INCONCEIVABLE!!
Inigo Montoya: You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

EDIT: i could mention a lot of different "inconceivable" things that both sides did that were utterly absurd (in retrospect)... it didn't stop them from being done, however.

Primo: It's quite possible that inconceivable isn't the best word to express what I wanted to say - a bit beyond utterly improbable. I'm not a native English speaker, and I'm too lazy to look things up in the dictionary.

Secundo: Your quote is unattributed, contrary to the rules, and must therefore be disregarded.

Tertio: Quoting "Legend of Zorro" at defenceless civilians should be beyond the pale.

Returning to the subject matter of the argument, the book I'm using as reference (the original version of "Anatomy of a ship: The Type XXI submarine") contains a schematic of the Type XXI hydraulic system, and the only parts of it outside the pressure hull were the drives for the 20mm turrets and the forward dive planes. During acceptance trials, there were all sorts of trouble with these, starting with contamination of hydraulic fluid by sea water. The dive plane and rudder control system didn't work properly in the original form, causing a total redesign. In the final series configuration, the turrets had their own, separate, hydraulic circuit and would anyway have been irrelevant for submerged operation. The rudder and dive plane system obviously worked fine on the completed boats, and the only part of the hydraulics outside the pressure hull (I'll say that again: the only part) were the forward dive plane actuators. I know there is some US publication that says differently, but I take the word of people who worked on the design themselves over the opinion of somebody who may have worked from dodgy, misunderstood or wrongly-translated documents or may have seen a jury-rigged system after bomb damage. You say that absurd things were done, but when the Kriegsmarine, who was in a tearing hurry to get those boats to the front, spent all the time needed to eliminate bugs of lesser significance, nobody would have left part of such an indispensable system dangling out in the breeze, just for lack of time.

Tertio: Quoting "Legend of Zorro" at defenceless civilians should be beyond the pale.

He was quoting The Princess Bride, not the Legend of Zorro, so he's off the hook on that charge.

In daylight, Sodak/Iowa fire control was vastly superior to Japanese optical fire control.

What optic or non optic have to do with it in daylight? Was round splash already radar detectable at that time?

ORIGINAL: Dili

In daylight, Sodak/Iowa fire control was vastly superior to Japanese optical fire control.

What optic or non optic have to do with it in daylight? Was round splash already radar detectable at that time?

They could actually detect the shells in flight and dodge them (done against Scharnhorst)... also, radar would be more accurate than optical in determining initial range.

Under the right conditions, US radar could spot 16in salvos out to maximum range.

Thanks.