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[font="times new roman"]I may be missing something here but how much supply is used when re-arming? Is it the same as the ‘rearm cost’?  If so, than an AE or other tender would get drained of its supply fairly quick.  I assume that both rearming a ship and drawing supply from the local port both cost OpPoints so I suppose a balance has to be met when rearming the big boys. I guess another question is how many OpPoints does it cost to rearm? How quickly can you load supply at the various base levels?[/font]
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[font="times new roman"]Thanks, this is good stuff[/font]
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[font="times new roman"]Bart[/font]

ORIGINAL: Gunner98

[font="times new roman"]I may be missing something here but how much supply is used when re-arming? Is it the same as the ‘rearm cost’?  If so, than an AE or other tender would get drained of its supply fairly quick.  I assume that both rearming a ship and drawing supply from the local port both cost OpPoints so I suppose a balance has to be met when rearming the big boys. I guess another question is how many OpPoints does it cost to rearm? How quickly can you load supply at the various base levels?[/font]
[font="times new roman"] [/font]
[font="times new roman"]Thanks, this is good stuff[/font]
[font="times new roman"][/font] 
[font="times new roman"]Bart[/font]

For purposes of supply, rearm cost is in "pounds". Supply is in "tons". Assuming a rearm cost of 1000, each two units of ammo consume one supply point:
(1000 * 2)/2000.

[font="times new roman"]Ok; then 15/42 Mk1, with a reload cost of 3876 – so it would cost 2 supply per unit of re-load – have I got that right?  Number or units needed depends entirely on the capacity of the Magazine minus the current stock in that Magazine. Add in the various other calibers the ship would need to load – lets say that the ship needs to load 600 supply to restock its magazines to capacity - how many OpPoints would that consume (600?)? Would the AE/AKE and the BB both use the OpPoints? (Assuming they are in a small port).  If it was the 16/45 at a cost of 4480 would the fractions be kept or dropped (i.e. would this take 3 supply per unit of re-load -a 50% increase or just slightly more over the cost of replen where things are rounded once)[/font]
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[font="times new roman"]Is there a chart, which describes the Port load rates – i.e. how many supply a size 3 port can load onto a ship (say the same AE/AKE) per turn?[/font]
[font="times new roman"] [/font]
[font="times new roman"]I am trying to understand how big of a support organization would need to be to support a forward deployed TF – should I deploy my AE/AKE at a ratio of 1/1 for every forward deployed BB for instance? Is an AE better than an AKE in this respect or are the only advantages of the AE in the realm of survivability and late war ‘at-sea’ replenishment for the USN? Are there guidlines in the manual such as - 1xAD can normaly support X # of DDs forward deployed.[/font]
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[font="times new roman"]I know I'm getting into the weeds here but ....[/font]
[font="times new roman"] [/font]
[font="times new roman"]Thanks[/font]
[font="times new roman"][/font] 
[font="times new roman"]Bart[/font]

ORIGINAL: JWE

There’s a table in the manual. Looks like this. Top row is the native Port Rearm value, by port size. 1st column is the weapon, 2nd column is the rearm cost. Please note ONLY SOME weapons will be included. For the rest, please think a bit and interpolate.

Next columns are whether a port of given size can do the deed (y) or, if not, how many Naval Support squads you have to have to rearm that weapon. Last column is what kinds of tenders are appropriate to rearm that weapon (presuming, of course, that the tender has “capacity” equal to or greater than the weapon rearm cost.

Port-7 can do just about anything. Port-6 begins to have hefty NavSup requirements for BB guns. Smaller ports can handle smaller guns. Naval Support squads are very important. Tenders are very important. Your Base Forces are now highly useful (and fragile) and making up an efficient fleet train becomes mandatory

This is just a sample – it just shows SOME guns, SOME torps and sorties. DCs, mines, etc.. work the same way. No warranty, things might have to be adjusted, but this is pretty close.

This whole port size vs reloads cost doesn't make much sense!

Torpedoes should be limited at the production/supply level not by cost vs. port size. If you can load/unload 15-30 ton tanks (M5, M3, M4 Allied), 7-8 ton (Type 95, Type 98 Japanese). I just don’t see the issue with torpedoes, 12 inch shells (850 lbs), or 16 inch shells (2050 lbs) based on the size of ports.

If you get unlimited 500, 1000, 2000 lbs bombs for bombers without restrictions, why put limits just on ships? Wouldn't it be better to model ammo & fuel bunkers, where the size of bunkers limits the number/type of reloads, then the cost is in building & resupplying the bunkers. Fuel bunker empty ships can't refuel, planes don't fly, Ammo bunker empty, planes can't reload, ships can't rearm. This would put limits on both ship and aircraft ops, you could even limit bomb reload types (250,500,1000,2000 lbs) & shell reload sizes (AAA, 3in, 4in, 6in, 8in, etc.) based on bunker size & supply level, something to consider for what ever comes next.

blimey - LitP - logisitcs in the pacific!

it looks like an awful lot of organistaion is going to be required for any thrusts through the Pacific and indeed any sea borne invasion - for me i get the impression AE is going to be a work of art, and indeed a labour of love!!

thanks for all above

ORIGINAL: pad152

ORIGINAL: JWE

There’s a table in the manual. Looks like this. Top row is the native Port Rearm value, by port size. 1st column is the weapon, 2nd column is the rearm cost. Please note ONLY SOME weapons will be included. For the rest, please think a bit and interpolate.

Next columns are whether a port of given size can do the deed (y) or, if not, how many Naval Support squads you have to have to rearm that weapon. Last column is what kinds of tenders are appropriate to rearm that weapon (presuming, of course, that the tender has “capacity” equal to or greater than the weapon rearm cost.
Port-7 can do just about anything. Port-6 begins to have hefty NavSup requirements for BB guns. Smaller ports can handle smaller guns. Naval Support squads are very important. Tenders are very important. Your Base Forces are now highly useful (and fragile) and making up an efficient fleet train becomes mandatory

This is just a sample – it just shows SOME guns, SOME torps and sorties. DCs, mines, etc.. work the same way. No warranty, things might have to be adjusted, but this is pretty close.

This whole port size vs reloads cost doesn't make much sense!

Torpedoes should be limited at the production/supply level not by cost vs. port size. If you can load/unload 15-30 ton tanks (M5, M3, M4 Allied), 7-8 ton (Type 95, Type 98 Japanese). I just don’t see the issue with torpedoes, 12 inch shells (850 lbs), or 16 inch shells (2050 lbs) based on the size of ports.

If you get unlimited 500, 1000, 2000 lbs bombs for bombers without restrictions, why put limits just on ships? Wouldn't it be better to model ammo & fuel bunkers, where the size of bunkers limits the number/type of reloads, then the cost is in building & resupplying the bunkers. Fuel bunker empty ships can't refuel, planes don't fly, Ammo bunker empty, planes can't reload, ships can't rearm. This would put limits on both ship and aircraft ops, you could even limit bomb reload types (250,500,1000,2000 lbs) & shell reload sizes (AAA, 3in, 4in, 6in, 8in, etc.) based on bunker size & supply level, something to consider for what ever comes next.

Hmmm...as I understand it, reload cost does not change with port size. Number is amount of Naval Support Squads one needs to be able rearm in that size of port. Cost is same. See the bold part.

I think the minimum port size represents the facilities present to rearm the ships, e.g. sufficient dock space, adequate crane capacity, etc. You probably can't reload 16" shells from a DUKW or a small lighter pulling up next to the BB out in the lagoon. You need dock space for the BB and a dockside crane (Port>6), specialty equipment moved into a smaller port (Port=<6 plus Naval Support) and/or an large enough ammo ship (AKE or AE of sufficient capacity which would include the necessary cranes).

Anyway, that's how I interpret what has been said.

Mike

ORIGINAL: Gunner98

[font="times new roman"]Ok; then 15/42 Mk1, with a reload cost of 3876 – so it would cost 2 supply per unit of re-load – have I got that right? 

Think so. It's really not that complicated guys. If a given weapon has an ammo cost of 3876 then it can rearm from an ammo ship with a capacity of 3876 or more. Each unit of ammo that it takes on costs 3876 supply sub-points. If the ship has 9 guns and each gun needs four units of ammo the supply cost is: ((3876 * 9 * 4) + 1999)/2000. Weapon cost time number of barrels times ammo per barrel plus rounding factor divided by 2000. If some mounts need more ammo than others, each is calculated differently (but rounding is only applied once). Tripple mount #1 need 6 ammo, #2 needs 5 ammo. 3 * 6 plus 3 *5, that result times 3876, then plus 1999, then divided by 2000.

Number or units needed depends entirely on the capacity of the Magazine minus the current stock in that Magazine. Add in the various other calibers the ship would need to load – lets say that the ship needs to load 600 supply to restock its magazines to capacity - how many OpPoints would that consume (600?)? Would the AE/AKE and the BB both use the OpPoints? (Assuming they are in a small port).  If it was the 16/45 at a cost of 4480 would the fractions be kept or dropped (i.e. would this take 3 supply per unit of re-load -a 50% increase or just slightly more over the cost of replen where things are rounded once)[/font]

I'm going to have to figure this one out before I answer it. As mentioned above, total ammo need is sub-points (pounds) is calculated from all the ammo needs of all the mounts of all the weapons. Supply cost is much less than 600 supply, even for the largest ships. Op points use a minimum value (just to get ready for rearming, etc) and then a value based on how much "weight" (i.e. supply points) is transferred. Both ship being rearmed and rearming unit (the tender, ammo ship, or port) consume ops points. We round up (the plus 1999) so even one "pound" requires a full "ton" of supply. So, using a 1001 rearm cost, 1 (1001 * 1) costs 1 supply point, 2 (2002 total) costs 2, 3 (3003) costs 2. The rounding is applied to the total ammo used, not to each individual barrel or mount.

[font="times new roman"] [/font]
[font="times new roman"]Is there a chart, which describes the Port load rates – i.e. how many supply a size 3 port can load onto a ship (say the same AE/AKE) per turn?[/font]

You betcha.

[font="times new roman"] [/font]
[font="times new roman"]I am trying to understand how big of a support organization would need to be to support a forward deployed TF – should I deploy my AE/AKE at a ratio of 1/1 for every forward deployed BB for instance? Is an AE better than an AKE in this respect or are the only advantages of the AE in the realm of survivability and late war ‘at-sea’ replenishment for the USN? Are there guidlines in the manual such as - 1xAD can normaly support X # of DDs forward deployed.[/font]
[font="times new roman"][/font] 
[font="times new roman"]I know I'm getting into the weeds here but ....[/font]
[font="times new roman"] [/font]
[font="times new roman"]Thanks[/font]
[font="times new roman"][/font] 
[font="times new roman"]Bart[/font]

The only difference between AKE and AE is the ability of AE to replenish underway (late war, allies only). For refueling, the only difference between AO and TK is the ability of AO to refuel underway. What this means is you can establish a "gas station" at any small port by moving a tanker and an AKE there. This is a very important addition to AE, and a great aid to forward ops. You'll need a large capacity AKE (up to the biggest gun you want to rearm) and you'll also probably need two or three of each (AKE and TK) moving back and forth to keep one full one at the forward base.

There are no guidelines for numbers per tender. Not sure how any could be worked up, since there are so many variables. Number and size of weapons on the DDs, how much ammo is actually needed, capacity of the tender... Tenders can not only rearm the ships they tend, they can help repair them.

ORIGINAL: pad152

This whole port size vs reloads cost doesn't make much sense!

Does to me. The whole idea is to make it difficult to rearm large ships at tiny ports. No more basing the combined fleet out of Wake Island. The capacity restrictions on refueling/rearming ships is simply the same port size restriction - applied to ships. There are small AKE in the game that can be used to keep a few destroyers or patrol craft going but you need the big ones to rearm battleships.

Torpedoes should be limited at the production/supply level not by cost vs. port size. If you can load/unload 15-30 ton tanks (M5, M3, M4 Allied), 7-8 ton (Type 95, Type 98 Japanese). I just don’t see the issue with torpedoes, 12 inch shells (850 lbs), or 16 inch shells (2050 lbs) based on the size of ports.

If you get unlimited 500, 1000, 2000 lbs bombs for bombers without restrictions, why put limits just on ships? Wouldn't it be better to model ammo & fuel bunkers, where the size of bunkers limits the number/type of reloads, then the cost is in building & resupplying the bunkers. Fuel bunker empty ships can't refuel, planes don't fly, Ammo bunker empty, planes can't reload, ships can't rearm. This would put limits on both ship and aircraft ops, you could even limit bomb reload types (250,500,1000,2000 lbs) & shell reload sizes (AAA, 3in, 4in, 6in, 8in, etc.) based on bunker size & supply level, something to consider for what ever comes next.

Production limits on torpedoes was considered but not implemented. It was implemented for mines. Really don't understand much of the rest of this part.











[/quote]

ORIGINAL: Sardaukar

Hmmm...as I understand it, reload cost does not change with port size. Number is amount of Naval Support Squads one needs to be able rearm in that size of port. Cost is same. See the bold part.

Reload cost is the cost to rearm the ship and does not change with port size.

Naval support emulates additional military facilities at a civilian port. Stock WITP merged everything into port size. AE provides naval support so you can temporarily increase the ability of a small port by sending in support. This is repair teams, cargo handling people, port operating units, ammo storage and handing people, plus associated equipment (including lighters).

ORIGINAL: Panther Bait

I think the minimum port size represents the facilities present to rearm the ships, e.g. sufficient dock space, adequate crane capacity, etc. You probably can't reload 16" shells from a DUKW or a small lighter pulling up next to the BB out in the lagoon. You need dock space for the BB and a dockside crane (Port>6), specialty equipment moved into a smaller port (Port=<6 plus Naval Support) and/or an large enough ammo ship (AKE or AE of sufficient capacity which would include the necessary cranes).

Anyway, that's how I interpret what has been said.

Mike

exactly.

Thanks Don, this is going to make operations much more detaled. Getting the Support groups right will allow a longer operation but then you have to protect them, keep them supplied, keep the fighting ships fit etc...
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Great work.
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Thanks

I see on the chart that the smaller guns can be reloaded from an AG*. Am I to assume that this is not the AG we currently have in game, but rather a small lighter or tender that will be in our ports? Basically, the AG tag is no longer just a transport barge?

ORIGINAL: Shark7

I see on the chart that the smaller guns can be reloaded from an AG*. Am I to assume that this is not the AG we currently have in game, but rather a small lighter or tender that will be in our ports? Basically, the AG tag is no longer just a transport barge?

AG never was the correct designation for a barge. In AE:

AG = Misc Auxiliary = base ship (small warship tender).
LB = Landing Barge

ORIGINAL: Don Bowen

ORIGINAL: Shark7
I see on the chart that the smaller guns can be reloaded from an AG*. Am I to assume that this is not the AG we currently have in game, but rather a small lighter or tender that will be in our ports? Basically, the AG tag is no longer just a transport barge?

AG never was the correct designation for a barge. In AE:

AG = Misc Auxiliary = base ship (small warship tender).
LB = Landing Barge

And also, it's not so much that an AG can rearm a small gun, it's that small guns are on small ships that AGs can rearm. As far as tenders go, everything depends on the ship "type".

AS: May rearm and assist repair of submarines only.
AD: May rearm and assist repair of DDs or any Small Escort types only.
AGP: May rearm and assist repair of PT and other Small Craft only.
AG: May rearm and assist repair of Small Escort and Small Craft only.

Definition of Small Escort: DE, APD, DMS, DM, AVD, E, TB, KV, PF, PB, PC, SC, AM, ML
Definition of Small Craft: PB, PC, SC, AM, ML, HDML, MGB, YP, YMS, AMc

And yes, this is all in the manual.

ORIGINAL: JWE

ORIGINAL: Don Bowen

ORIGINAL: Shark7
I see on the chart that the smaller guns can be reloaded from an AG*. Am I to assume that this is not the AG we currently have in game, but rather a small lighter or tender that will be in our ports? Basically, the AG tag is no longer just a transport barge?

AG never was the correct designation for a barge. In AE:

AG = Misc Auxiliary = base ship (small warship tender).
LB = Landing Barge

And also, it's not so much that an AG can rearm a small gun, it's that small guns are on small ships that AGs can rearm. As far as tenders go, everything depends on the ship "type".

AS: May rearm and assist repair of submarines only.
AD: May rearm and assist repair of DDs or any Small Escort types only.
AGP: May rearm and assist repair of PT and other Small Craft only.
AG: May rearm and assist repair of Small Escort and Small Craft only.

Definition of Small Escort: DE, APD, DMS, DM, AVD, E, TB, KV, PF, PB, PC, SC, AM, ML
Definition of Small Craft: PB, PC, SC, AM, ML, HDML, MGB, YP, YMS, AMc

And yes, this is all in the manual.

Good, cause I actually do read it before asking stupid questions. Might not comprehend it, but I do read it. [:'(]

So basically to rearm or repair BB Kongo for instance, I'm going to have to have a decent port, with an AR and an AK/AKE...putting a couple of little AGs in the base won't cut it. That's better in a way, will force people to actually plan and build up bases before racing across the Pacific.

Oh, Lordy, ya’ll are making it harder than it really is. It’s very straight forward. It’s OR, not AND. There’s 3 ways to get your rearm. If you look at the chart you see there’s only two kinds of weaps that have big numbers: Torps and BB guns. So if you have either of those, you must:

1) find or build up a port to level 7 (there won’t be as many as in WiTP-1); OR
2) add NavSup to a level-6 (you can add to smaller ports, but requires huge amounts); OR
3) put “appropriate” tenders in the right place.

Supply isn’t an issue, (sorta). For a full rearm, your basic DD consumes about 55 tons to rearm. Your basic CA (with torps) consumes about 100 tons. Your basic BB consumes about 250 tons. Your basic Yamato consumes about 300 tons.

But with each rearm, the “capacity” counter decrements. At a Base, no worries, but with a “tender”, as soon as the “capacity” counter drops below a weapon threshold, the tender can’t rearm any more of that weapon. It can rearm smaller (less costly) weapons, but it is presumed that it’s exhausted its magazines of big, nasty stuff, and just has a stock of this & that left.

ORIGINAL: JWE

Your basic Yamato consumes about 300 tons.

Is there such a thing? [:D]

Interesting stuff though guys, I'm glad to see bits of the manual. I'm going to have to pick up a copy asap.

ORIGINAL: JWE

But with each rearm, the “capacity” counter decrements. At a Base, no worries, but with a “tender”, as soon as the “capacity” counter drops below a weapon threshold, the tender can’t rearm any more of that weapon. It can rearm smaller (less costly) weapons, but it is presumed that it’s exhausted its magazines of big, nasty stuff, and just has a stock of this & that left.

I'm still unclear about something though: If there's plentiful supply at said base, will the tender *automatically* refill or do you have to:

• Select it/them;
• Create a temporary TF with it (or them);
• Click 'Replenish' (and consume Op points);
• Disband back into the base.

Steve.

ORIGINAL: steveh11Matrix

ORIGINAL: JWE

But with each rearm, the “capacity” counter decrements. At a Base, no worries, but with a “tender”, as soon as the “capacity” counter drops below a weapon threshold, the tender can’t rearm any more of that weapon. It can rearm smaller (less costly) weapons, but it is presumed that it’s exhausted its magazines of big, nasty stuff, and just has a stock of this & that left.

I'm still unclear about something though: If there's plentiful supply at said base, will the tender *automatically* refill or do you have to:

• Select it/them;
• Create a temporary TF with it (or them);
• Click 'Replenish' (and consume Op points);
• Disband back into the base.

Steve.

You have to load it like any other ship.