Matrix Games Forums

Fair enough. Or at least provide a concise summary of what the thing is supposed to allow one to do. I should shut up. I'm NOT opposed to Mg3 getting the feature that he wants. I guess I'm reacting mostly out of fear that Matrix can't afford to respond to every call for tinkering (which isn't my call to make anyhow) and in defense of, can you believe it, Frag.

Stick around MG3. Every squeaky wheel gets to be heard.

Yes, that about sums it up. The designers gave them tools to just that, but only about half-way. And that's the crux of the problem.

No, the designers did not. People are using the tools provided in a manner they were not intended to be used in.

*That* is the crux of the problem. Just because someone happens to have figured out an exploit in the system doesn't make it right. I do not use this as a deliberate slight at anyone who has figured out that they can skip aircraft, but it was certainly never intended that *that* be a choice.

History lesson:

Original code, no r&d was damaged at start

testers took this and abused it to produce aircraft *way* too early.

Code changed ... all starting R&D damaged.

testers still figured out a way to get aircraft early.

Code changed ... R&D repairs more expensive

testers still figured out a way to get aircraft early.

Code changed ... repair of R&D slowed down to not repair every day

game released. people immediately jump on the lets do what the testers did that they tried to block 3 separate times.

Mr. Frag, why was aircraft research added to the game in the first place? What was the intention?

From Mr. Frag

The point is that *yes* you made them but so what? You should have balanced your production requirements to meet your needs. That is the whole point of Japan having some measure of control, so you CAN balance your industry against your losses and continue to produce what you need for what you have, not simplify your life by eliminating all but a few aircraft types through conversion of groups to other types to completely remove this headache from japan.

ORIGINAL: SunDevil

From Mr. Frag

The point is that *yes* you made them but so what? You should have balanced your production requirements to meet your needs. That is the whole point of Japan having some measure of control, so you CAN balance your industry against your losses and continue to produce what you need for what you have, not simplify your life by eliminating all but a few aircraft types through conversion of groups to other types to completely remove this headache from japan.

That's production, not research. How do hard-coded historical availability dates not fit with this?

Mr. Frag, why was aircraft research added to the game in the first place? What was the intention?

To be able to get some aircraft earlier and actually be able to get them before the game is over because of the large number of requests by players for aircraft that really were not seen. It was not meant to completely replace aircraft types with other choices which is why if you look at the Aircraft Reinforcements, you'll see some of each type available.

That's production, not research. How do hard-coded historical availability dates not fit with this?

If the code was changed to allow player to pick aircraft, it should be trapped to the date of the availability of said aircraft.

ie: doing the A8M so it comes in before the A6M5 by r&d'ing to hell and back should result in no net gain UNTIL the A6M5 is available ... then I would have no problem at all with it because you still did the R&D required to get to the A8M ... my problem is the proposed pick anything without that *R&D* check and balance.

I don't care if you change Oscar II's to Franks. I care if you R&D Franks to push them to earlier then Oscars and go straight from Nates to Franks. As long as the Oscar is available (e: the full R&D work to get to Franks), I'm more then happy to have you go from Nates to Franks should you choose to.

I don't like fixed, said it enough times already, but I also don't want japan being the first man on the moon by gaming the system. If you can't see where I am coming from, perhaps we simply need to let the USA start the game with Corsairs and make the point clear of how silly it is.

I feel a lot a love in this room. [:D]

ORIGINAL: SunDevil

No, not because of one troll who already got reported by me. [8D]

/sigh....

Didn't mommy tell you it's not nice to be a tattle-tale? [:-]

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

Mr. Frag, why was aircraft research added to the game in the first place? What was the intention?

To be able to get some aircraft earlier and actually be able to get them before the game is over because of the large number of requests by players for aircraft that really were not seen. It was not meant to completely replace aircraft types with other choices which is why if you look at the Aircraft Reinforcements, you'll see some of each type available.

So you get them earlier, but can't equip squadrons with them due to upgrade paths....

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

That's production, not research. How do hard-coded historical availability dates not fit with this?

If the code was changed to allow player to pick aircraft, it should be trapped to the date of the availability of said aircraft.

ie: doing the A8M so it comes in before the A6M5 by r&d'ing to hell and back should result in no net gain UNTIL the A6M5 is available ... then I would have no problem at all with it because you still did the R&D required to get to the A8M ... my problem is the proposed pick anything without that *R&D* check and balance.

I don't care if you change Oscar II's to Franks. I care if you R&D Franks to push them to earlier then Oscars and go straight from Nates to Franks. As long as the Oscar is available (e: the full R&D work to get to Franks), I'm more then happy to have you go from Nates to Franks should you choose to.

I don't like fixed, said it enough times already, but I also don't want japan being the first man on the moon by gaming the system. If you can't see where I am coming from, perhaps we simply need to let the USA start the game with Corsairs and make the point clear of how silly it is.

Well, I think I finally understand Mr.Frag's point (nothing to do with his ability to explain - but rather my limited understanding of aircraft production/research in the game)

However, I don't get the impression that anyone is asking for the ability to research the top level aircraft without first researching the earlier one's. If that's possible then the fixed upgrade path will, I guess, ensure's you can't benefit from it.. It seems to me that's a side effect of a curious game design though.

It's just a question of being forced to upgrade a squadron with what was done historically, rather than with whatever we may have available in our pool at the time. However, if I understand correctly, to do this AND ensure we can't 'cheat' to get aircraft into squadrons, you'd need to redesign the research aspect too..

And I'm not overly optimistic that will be done.

Reiryc,

Is that all, can I go now? Thanks for the lecture. Maybe you should read the posts from the MG3 again. And then look at his location in his profile.

ORIGINAL: Drongo

Is it thread locking time already?

if it isn't, its damn close

Relax. I'm the guy who's supposed to be offended and I'm not. I've been called worse things than a "know it all" and sometimes my accusers have been correct. And I think that the discussion has revealed what prod was supposed to do, what people have done with it, and arguments for and against doing what people have done with it. So light has been generated along with the heat and noise.

Besides.

How often do you get to see me and Frag agree on something? Worth the price of admission I think.

ORIGINAL: SunDevil

Reiryc,

Is that all, can I go now? Thanks for the lecture. Maybe you should read the posts from the MG3 again. And then look at his location in his profile.

Did already...

Hopefully the lecture will take, but somehow I doubt it. [:(]

So you get them earlier, but can't equip squadrons with them due to upgrade paths....

yes, and thats part of the problem ...

To properly do this, you need to completely remove Japan's OOB for aircraft and simply give them x number of pilots in a pool that can be used to form groups with *any* aircraft that happen to be available.

The pilots would show up from pilot schools that were run similar to industry. Each class graduating would have a skill of x and contain y pilots. Each month a new class would start and train pilots at 5% a month.

You would look at the pilot classes running and choose *when* to graduate the class based on the skill it had reached balanced against the need for pilots *now*.

These pilots would then be used to form your groups instead of the *fixed* OOB. This would be the *ONLY* source for pilots in the game. You would have the tough choice of using them as replacements or forming new groups.

R&D would run completely separately, covering off aircraft in the historical order they were done with perhaps a separate IJA/INJ split. The actual dates would be somewhat obscured as in reality they should *not* be known in advance.

Production would be able to produce any aircraft that had been successfully R&D'd. Retooling would be based on the type of changeover required (a simple factor for aircraft type).

That was my view of how to make the system, but as you can see, it is a whole pile of new coding.

It addresses Pilots, Aircraft and R&D which really are all interlinked together.

How often do you get to see me and Frag agree on something? Worth the price of admission I think.

Thats twice now in recorded history. [:D]

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

That's production, not research. How do hard-coded historical availability dates not fit with this?

I don't care if you change Oscar II's to Franks. I care if you R&D Franks to push them to earlier then Oscars and go straight from Nates to Franks. As long as the Oscar is available (e: the full R&D work to get to Franks), I'm more then happy to have you go from Nates to Franks should you choose to.

With all do respect, that ain't gonna happen. Everything on the subject of research says that the best you can hope for is to advance production by a couple months. The Frank will arrive normally in Aug 44. The Oscar will arrive 20 months earlier in Jan 43. If I can advance the Frank by 20 months, research is *bigtime* broken and needs to be fixed. About the most likely scenario I see for that would be the Geroge and Frank, but that is still 8 months.

Edited to add: In any case, I'd rather it not be in the game anyway.

C'mon, lets all go down the pub and get pissed.

My team lost tonight, and I'm in the mood for a few beers!!!!

ORIGINAL: MG3

Just given up the game.

Maybe some emule users will be happy about the game, since I am not worthy to play it. The would be community surly make everything possible to piss of their customers. First rip offs and scams while buying, then youre being told to be a sissy child wargamer because you critizise some of the features.

Wow this thread moves fast [:D] You go away for an hour or two and there's already a boycott being organised [:D]

Frankly, this is by no means a game breaking issue, no matter how you slice it. It may be one wrong design decision but is really by no means crucial.

On the contrary, the very fact that we discuss something *this* small or detailed or insignificant proves:

a) we all got nothing better to do
b) WITP is very near perfect, because if THIS is a deal breaker for some people, then... geez... I mean... well you can guess what I mean [:D]

Oleg