Matrix Games Forums

ORIGINAL: Eradanfaroth

Will this topic be definitively closed the 7th of November ?

That would be nice.[:)] Probably not though.

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AI Opponent is a much nigher priority than PBEM, post the initial release on November 7th.

We'll have a "When" for Multiplayer... "When" for the AI...

ORIGINAL: JudgeDredd

By netplay you mean sitting at a computer playing your opponent real time?

As in - both players contact each other and make dates and times to meet online and churn out a game?

Yes. Both players will need to online at the same time. Just like playing the board game [:D]

playing World in Flames requires continual planning and decision making, and a whole lot of "game play" can be accomplished while the 2 players aren't connected to each other live.

ORIGINAL: brian brian

playing World in Flames requires continual planning and decision making, and a whole lot of "game play" can be accomplished while the 2 players aren't connected to each other live.

Correct. This is why PBEM is also being implemented.

ORIGINAL: Neilster

A lot of AI work has been done already: Strategies and formulating how stuff can be encoded but obviously that's a long way from actually programming and then testing it.

Cheers, Neilster

I don't wish to minimize the enormous task of cataloging and ordering optimum strategies and choices an AI opponent (or any competent player) has to deal with. However, even though it seems that a lot of AI Opponent work has been done, I'm still not convinced that any amount of programming will be sufficient when the game is WiF and the goal is an "acceptable" AIO. I look with despair at the large teams who try and fail to design acceptable AI Opponents for games that are intentionally designed for them, games with rules designed for the computer to be able to handle. They can't even get a Total War game right and how much time and money and hours have been spent on that simple system with rules DESIGNED for a computer to be able to handle?

A WiF AIO would have to deal with rules designed for grognard humans, rules where one simple mistake (say, losing that critical HQ or being baited into wasting the only available TAC protecting a critical hex or a sudden crazy overcommitment of a navy in a dangerous zone or wasting amphs and marines in random poorly chosen invasions or wasting an offensive chit or overextending armor or flipping too many units too early in a turn) can completely throw an otherwise promising game you have spent many hours playing. Those kinds of things happen so frequently with WiF, I just can't picture a computer being able to figure it out consistently enough that the game won't be at a high risk of "breaking" every turn due to game-breaking incompetence.

The game will be MUCH better at calculating things like whether a hex it is thinking of invading can be put into supply. The game will be MUCH better at QUICKLY calculating the correct arrangement of units along a front to maximize the odds against the hexes it wants to attack. But that stuff won't make up for consistently doing stupid things that throw away the game. We could end up reverse "save scumming" by constantly having to reload from previous saves to try to get the computer to not throw the game.

I'm just a political science guy, I know little about computers other than how to buy and use them. I know Steve is an AI guy and I respect the heck out of that. Strategies and encoding work may have already advanced significantly, but I still maintain that there is a chief difficulty in getting an "acceptable" AIO for WiF: the soldiers defending humanity from the machines who come back in time to stop him before he is able to finish a competent AI for WiF.

But if a WiF AI releases, I'll be there with credit card in hand. But please, don't load it onto a computer attached to the internet.

There is one thing to know about AI programming when it comes to designing computer games :
Competence in the game itself is required.

You have taken Total War for example. It's a very good example.
I pre-ordered Empire Total War (last time i would send my money with blinding confidence in a great company). This game has been an abysmal failure. Not only because of bugs at release, but because the AI was totally inept. And this flaw has proved nearly impossible to correct. Why ?
From what i have read on this topic on the net ( then with the accordingly margin of error), it's seems that the programmer of the AI itself was an incompetent player. So he failed to only see his own mistakes and mispellings. Starting from that, AI has never recovered.

The big difference here is that the AI will be designed by players of the game, sufficiently competent in Wif gaming (I hope so, Steve and the others :p) for them to be able to design what we can call a good AI.
After all, a machine is only the work of his creator.

ORIGINAL: Eradanfaroth

There is one thing to know about AI programming when it comes to designing computer games :
Competence in the game itself is required.

You have taken Total War for example. It's a very good example.
I pre-ordered Empire Total War (last time i would send my money with blinding confidence in a great company). This game has been an abysmal failure. Not only because of bugs at release, but because the AI was totally inept. And this flaw has proved nearly impossible to correct. Why ?
From what i have read on his topic on the net ( then with the acoordingly margin of error), it's seems the programmer of the AI itself was an incompetent player. So he failed to only see his own mistakes and mispellings. Starting from that, AI has never recovered.

The big difference here is that the AI will be designed by players of the game, sufficiently competent in Wif gaming (I hope so, Steve and the others :p) for them to be able to design what we can call a good AI.
After all, a machine is only the work of his creator.

Apparently Steve is a very good player and heaps of clearly expert players have provided detailed input on the AI as well.

Cheers, Neilster

Dear Neilster,
The problem with your quoting of me, is that i can't edit it to correct some little errors, in grammary and spelling.
So my shame will be eternal ^^

Now everyone will notice [;)]

Cheers, Neilster

Hope we could settle this little disagreement on a MWIF battlefield a next day [:D]

Someone recently asked if playing WiF solo is fun. It is enormously entertaining. I used to play many games against myself, even in addition to playing against others. The entertainment value available for even solo play is AMAZING. As fun as playing against other people? No. Playing WiF solo more fun than playing any wargame I've ever tried on the computer? Yes. Vastly more entertaining and I have played many.

Cheers! Only a couple more weeks to go before my work productivity declines. When you aren't actually playing WiF, you become continuously obsessed over your next moves.

I think is developing a highly competitive AI for MWiF, I've heard he's calling it Skynet...[X(]

ORIGINAL: Lingering Frey

Someone recently asked if playing WiF solo is fun. It is enormously entertaining. I used to play many games against myself, even in addition to playing against others. The entertainment value available for even solo play is AMAZING. As fun as playing against other people? No. Playing WiF solo more fun than playing any wargame I've ever tried on the computer? Yes. Vastly more entertaining and I have played many.

Cheers! Only a couple more weeks to go before my work productivity declines. When you aren't actually playing WiF, you become continuously obsessed over your next moves.

Government warning: "Don't buy this game. It's addictive"... [:D]

Steve...

You need to stop tormenting us with these beautiful screenshots, and acting so coy about the release date. [:-]

Can I have the Shiny Thing now?[&o]

True story, you can stare at it for hours to come up with the perfect plan/move only to roll $hit and spoil all your plans. I would never have the time to play solitaire on the map version of the game but with this I may have multiple games on the go just to destroy the remaining brain cells I have left.

ORIGINAL: Lingering Frey

Someone recently asked if playing WiF solo is fun. It is enormously entertaining. I used to play many games against myself, even in addition to playing against others. The entertainment value available for even solo play is AMAZING. As fun as playing against other people? No. Playing WiF solo more fun than playing any wargame I've ever tried on the computer? Yes. Vastly more entertaining and I have played many.

Cheers! Only a couple more weeks to go before my work productivity declines. When you aren't actually playing WiF, you become continuously obsessed over your next moves.

ORIGINAL: WIF_Killzone

True story, you can stare at it for hours to come up with the perfect plan/move only to roll $hit and spoil all your plans. I would never have the time to play solitaire on the map version of the game but with this I may have multiple games on the go just to destroy the remaining brain cells I have left.

ORIGINAL: Lingering Frey

Someone recently asked if playing WiF solo is fun. It is enormously entertaining. I used to play many games against myself, even in addition to playing against others. The entertainment value available for even solo play is AMAZING. As fun as playing against other people? No. Playing WiF solo more fun than playing any wargame I've ever tried on the computer? Yes. Vastly more entertaining and I have played many.

Cheers! Only a couple more weeks to go before my work productivity declines. When you aren't actually playing WiF, you become continuously obsessed over your next moves.

Multiple solitaire games active at once, ... now there's an idea I never considered. Very Interesting, ...

Thank you, thank you, thank you Steve. Can't tell you how excited I am to finally get the resource I need to play this game. Bought the Deluxe game in the late 90's, but never had the space to play it. Read through the rules maybe 10 times and drooled over the maps, counters and tables many more times.

I've followed this thread now for many years, and honestly never thought you'd get here. Your perseverance is mind boggling. For dedicated strategy gamers, this is truly an amazing event. Seriously, one of the very high points in my 50+ year gaming life.

Again, my very sincere thanks for all your hard work. I'll be buying the full deal (more physical maps to drool over) the moment it's posted for sale. Honestly, you guys could have priced it higher. : )

Yep, I will buy it! No doubt about it.

So, I am puzzled.

- It was projected for 7 Nov.
- Then they change this too back to "Coming soon"
- Then it came out as a pre-release or whatever the name at Essen, so the game is made and the maps and manuals too.
- So, does the Nov 7th keep being the release date? or there will be a delay? and what would the reason be? the map and manuals printing?