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RE: Tip-Toeing through a minefield wearing iron galoshes
Posted: Mon May 26, 2008 12:16 pm
by Canoerebel
IIRC, Iwo Jima can be built to level six airfield (it's currently level four in this game). So, once buit out, the field can hold up to 300 aircraft (per our house rule). I have transports with far more crated aircraft than I can use (since this invasion force was originally headed for Luzon). I'll unload the following: 96 Corsairs (4 squadrons), 36 Hellcats (1 squadron), recon (probably 2 PBY squadrons totally 24 aircraft) and bombers (a mixture of SBDs, B-24s, and B-17s).
RE: Tip-Toeing through a minefield wearing iron galoshes
Posted: Mon May 26, 2008 4:46 pm
by Cap Mandrake
ORIGINAL: Canoerebel
IIRC, Iwo Jima can be built to level six airfield (it's currently level four in this game). So, once buit out, the field can hold up to 300 aircraft (per our house rule). I have transports with far more crated aircraft than I can use (since this invasion force was originally headed for Luzon). I'll unload the following: 96 Corsairs (4 squadrons), 36 Hellcats (1 squadron), recon (probably 2 PBY squadrons totally 24 aircraft) and bombers (a mixture of SBDs, B-24s, and B-17s).
You brought crated up B-17's [X(] That has to be a serious crate.
You will also need fighters that are operational from day one (at least 50 I think). Perhaps Corsairs flown off your jeep carriers or P-38's from China (if they can reach). You would be better off flying in the PBY's and 17's if they can reach from Midway? That way you wont have hundreds of non-operational planes waiting to absorb 8 in and 14 inch shells when he comes to visit, which he is certain to do. You will also need a fulsome surface force to stay behind so the IJN can't have its way with the airfield.
RE: Tip-Toeing through a minefield wearing iron galoshes
Posted: Mon May 26, 2008 5:04 pm
by Canoerebel
They are big crates. The CVs will stick around for awhile to make sure the airfield gets operational, with Hellcats from CVEs serving as interim LB CAP until the crated fighters are ready to go. I don't think Iwo is within range of B-17s and PBYs from Midway, but I'll check as soon as I capture Iwo.
But it is taking forever to capture Iwo due to the mining. If John continues to stay away from the island, I'll try to get the mines cleared using my minesweepers. Then my two reserve regiments will land to assist in the attacks.
I'll update my AAR in a little while, but my combat fleets and carriers were able to replenish mission sorties and ammo at Tori Shima. That's one thing that has gone right thus far.
If John gives me enough time to capture Iwo, get it mined, get CAP up and running, and anchor my surface combat fleets there, I think it will be out of danger. It's also going to serve as a great sub base.
RE: Tip-Toeing through a minefield wearing iron galoshes
Posted: Mon May 26, 2008 5:50 pm
by pat.casey
Are you sure delaying to added another 1 or 2 RCTs to your attack is wise?
Seems like you're in a race against time here. You have to capture Iwo before he can force a fleet engagement or reinforce iwo. Even if you win a fleet engagement, you'll have a lot of wounded ships far from home with no port or friendly air cover.
Even with your fleet there, if he's willing to take the losses, he *can* reinforce iwo. Massive barge convoys, hordes of 1 ship AP convoys, or an air bridge can get additional combat forces onto the ground pretty much whatever you do. Admittely the barge convoy or singe ship AP swarm is gamey so your opponent may not go there, but if he's willing to take the losses from air transports (and he should be), then every transport in teh empire should be ferrying light infantry onto iwo right now.
So relative forces on the island is only going to tilt more and more in his favor as time progresses. Waiting days to land another RCT (say a 5% bump in your available AP), will probably give him time to land a divisional equivalent on iwo via air transport, probably bumping his AP at least 100%.
I'd think you should shock attack ASAP. Getting a few of your divisions mauled in the process is well worth it if you can take the island before A) he reinforces or B) he forces a fleet engagement.
RE: Tip-Toeing through a minefield wearing iron galoshes
Posted: Mon May 26, 2008 6:24 pm
by Canoerebel
These are all good points, but you're at a disadvantage because you don't have access to alot fo the detailed information which are factored by players in making evaluations and decisions. Things can change rapidly, but to date John has shown a reluctance to hazard an engagement with my carriers. As best I can tell, no ships are heading this way. He is flying Topsys from the Home Islands to Iwo, but based upon the combat replay each turn he is not bringing in new units - he's either reinforcing the existing units (and he has but one infantry unit on the island), bringing supplies, or possibly even evacuating fragments so that he can rebuild units lost when the island surrenders. Mines are tearing up my ships and disabling alot of my ground units, plus they are disorganized. So I'm trying to rest them a bit before assaulting again. Too, my ships needed to replenish (combat ships their gun ammo, carriers their mission sorties), so I sent them to Tori Shima, so they will have been absent from Iwo for two days, but now they are fully replenished and much better prepared to take on the enemy.
John can wreak havoc if he fully commits his combat ships and carriers to battle over Iwo, but I don't think he's going to, at least not immediately. So I weighed all this and decided to rest my troops a bit before attacking, and to bring reinforcements as soon as possible.
RE: Tip-Toeing through a minefield wearing iron galoshes
Posted: Tue May 27, 2008 1:38 pm
by Canoerebel
9/2/43 and 9/3/43
Tori Shima: The Allied CVs and combat ships spent a day at Tori Shima and replenished ammo and mission sorties. John expressed dismay that I used a level one port in this fashion, but I thought it was a clever idea (one of the few I've had thus far that actually worked) and doing so rectified the problem of the massive carrier strikes against lone transports. On the 3rd, however, some of my TFs became separated from the main transport TF and took hits from Kates and other bombers flying from Tokyo. I lost an APD, and four DMs were damaged along with a few other ships. I've tried to corral my ships and get them back under protection of the carriers.
Iwo Jima: While the carriers and combat ships spent the 2nd and 3rd steaming to and from Tori Shima, the ground troops bombarded. I've ordered the minesweepers, main combat TF, and CVE TF back to Iwo, with the rest of the fleet to take post a hex to the north. The ground troops will try a shock attack on the 4th. Bettys from Saipan scrambled on the 3rd and tried penetrating the main CV CAP; 31 went down in a-2-a and none got through.
On the 2nd, there were 10 more mine hits for AKs and 2 for APs; no hits on the 3rd because no ships were there other than minesweepers. Over this two day period, Allied ships lost in this area (including the APD mentioned above): 5 AK and 1 AP.
The increased offensive activity by Jap aircraft is a worrisome development. It would be a big help if the ground troops could take Iwo asap.
Rangoon: Allied bombers continue to damage a variety of Jap transports.
RE: Tip-Toeing through a minefield wearing iron galoshes
Posted: Tue May 27, 2008 1:47 pm
by DW
I've been following your AAR for sometime and find it fascinating. After watching your opponent spend so much time slapping you around like you were a punk it's heartening to see you go onto the offensive and start giving some back to him. (Great defense of Australia, btw. It was rational, measured and most importantly... Successful)
I have to agree with Pat Casey that time is the critical factor in this operation and that a sudden swarm of reinforcements could easily derail your plans.
As deep as you are into enemy territory, you can't afford to get bogged down.
I understand your concern about ship losses due to mines when landing your reinforcement, but perhaps there's a way around that.
Couldn't you land your troops at one of the nearby bases that you captured, spawn some barges and use them to run your troops onto Iwo Jima, thus sparing your more important ships?
I'm not sure how long that would take in comparison to your mine sweeping operations, but based on other AARs I've read the Japanese players can absolutely flood reinforcements onto Iwo Jima should he choose to so so. And, because of the combat model there would be very little you could do to prevent it.
I think you need to get that island ASAP.
Just my thoughts...
RE: Tip-Toeing through a minefield wearing iron galoshes
Posted: Tue May 27, 2008 2:23 pm
by Nemo121
Canoerebel,
You lose FAR more through timidity now than through decisive action. All through history commanders have put themselves in winning positions through brave action and then have let timidity take over and persuade them not to deliver the killing blow.
Don't be one of these guys. Unload what you have to to take Iwo Jima, take it, accept the necessary loses and secure your operational victory. Then turn your attention to making it a strategic victory. Without Iwo you have nothing so commit fully and take it and give yourself a safe haven in the midst of Japanese waters.
RE: Tip-Toeing through a minefield wearing iron galoshes
Posted: Tue May 27, 2008 2:35 pm
by Canoerebel
9/4/43
DW, that's a clever idea that never occurred to me, but I think John might have a stroke if I tried it. He seems to be pretty ticked off that I replenished my ships at Tori Shima, and that I have PT boats stationed there. Fortunately, though, it looks like I won't need the reinforcements, judging by today's action.
Iwo Jima: The 4 BB Allied bombardment TF really got in a good lick, inflicting 1055/9 on the shell-shocked Jap garrison. Later in the day, the Allied ground troops launched a shock attack which dropped forts from 3 to 1, came off at 3:1, and inflicted 598/7 to 570/15/2. If I'm reading things correctly, Iwo could fall tomorrow.
Tori Shima: The Maya/Furutaka combat TF returned and tangled with the PT boats stationed here. The Japs sank 6 PT boats, but three DDs took torpedoes, two of them sinking.
Sallys and Helens from Tokyo caught some of the damaged DMs and sank one. Also going under were two APs and an LST.
Rangoon: The Allies are now attacking at odds better than 100:1. Today's attack cost the Japs more than 7,000 troops, so the end is very near. Allied LBA scored another five or ten hits on transports. When all is said and done, John may have lost as many transports here as I've lost in the Iwo campaign (although I've suffered many more damaged ships, but most of them should be able to repair in port at Iwo).
Allied CVs: In addition to the big fleet at Iwo, the Allies have other carriers in harm's way. The RN carriers continue to steam home from the recent raid near Timor. I have my fingers crossed that they won't bump into an angry KB way down south of Sumatra. Also, CV Intrepid and CVL Langley arrived. I sent them toward the Societies in hopes of bumping into that Mini-KB operating there, but didn't have any luck. They are heading back to Hawaii.
Points: The Allies just went over 20,000 points. The Japs have about 43,500. At the end of '42, with the Japs besieging Melbourne and Sydney, I had real fears of a Jap auto-victory in '43. After that threat passed, I wondered if I would face auto-victory in '44, but it looks like that threat is dimishining.
RE: Tip-Toeing through a minefield wearing iron galoshes
Posted: Tue May 27, 2008 3:28 pm
by Q-Ball
Looks like Iwo is falling, and that will create the obvious question: What next?
I have stopped reading John's AAR, because I don't feel I can give untainted advice unless I am out of the know. So I am guessing at some things.
SHORT TERM:
It will take maybe a week to secure Iwo, repair the airbase, and uncrate/repair enough planes to put up a decent CAP. 100 or so Corsairs should be enough to protect damaged ships in Iwo port, or at least make him pay way too much to get them. He won't try to bomb the port or base with anything less than KB against Corsairs.
I would immediately take your fast CV's and raid something to the north or west. I would do that ONE turn, then immediately get back to Iwo. You would have to leave your CVE's and BB's behind; even if KB happens to appear THAT turn, they should be able to put up enough Hellcats and Corsairs at Iwo to shoot down hundreds of planes.
A port raid on Osaka or Hiroshima/Kure would really cause alarm. It would absolutely freak him out. I think you have to do it WITHOUT recon, so you may or may not catch valuable ships. Osaka is probably more likely to have ships in port, albeit tranports. Neither probably has much CAP, if he is launching bombers from Tokyo, that is probably CAPed. In any case, there is no way he has enough fighters in the Home Islands that he would have 100 on CAP over Osaka. You could hit it from a point SW of Osaka that the bombers at Tokyo can't get you, and you can steam there in one turn no problem.
The other alternative is to raid straight west for ONE turn, looking for convoys. Your main objective NOW should be the interdiction of supplies from SRA. If you can accomplish that, the Empire will collapse.
LONG TERM:
You probably need to pick your next target now. You can start prepping those troops on Iwo for somewhere else as soon as it falls. Your choices:
1. MARCUS: The conservative choice, this would have the great advantage of clearing your supply line to Iwo, at least clearing it from LBA. Your biggest problem is that everything will need CV escort for the time being, a huge logistical challenge, but one that will be easier when you get more CVE's. RISK: Low REWARD: Low, but will aid in long term.
2. OKINAWA: I prefer this to Luzon. You can expect a horde of aircraft from Formosa or HI, but interestingly, Okinawa is outside the range of the Tojo, Tony, and Jack from those places, so he can only get Zekes over the Island. I bet there aren't alot of troops there right now, and I also bet that is being corrected. But even so, how many units can he have there? HIGH Risk, but HIGH REWARD; the HI would be completely cut off.
3. LUZON: John thinks you were going there. He probably has a large land army there at this point. Even so, getting ashore should not be a problem, it's staying ashore that will be. I am on the fence here, but it's tough to supply Luzon, even with Iwo.
4. LEYTE/CEBU/ISLANDS: If these bases are well-built, might be worth considering. He can't defend them all in Division strength, so taking would not be a problem, or holding. Supplying could be, and there are numerous ways to Bombard the base, unlike Iwo, where he will have to be seen without aircover.
5. ALTERNATE OPERATIONS: John has a huge perimeter to defend, and I would wager that with 8 divisions so close to Home, those troops are all going to be pulled in as quick as possible. All his attention should be focused there. Is there any way to get a lodgement going where there is a cluster of bases, so you can advance under LBA? Like, the Marshalls, Solomons, Gilberts?
RE: Tip-Toeing through a minefield wearing iron galoshes
Posted: Tue May 27, 2008 3:45 pm
by Canoerebel
QBall, I've been mulling over a raid on the Home Islands. I know John's Maya/Furutaka combat TF is coming from Tokyo. I don't know what if anything he has at Osaka. When my CVs replenished at Tori Shima a couple of days ago, recon sighted a number of Jap TFs just off the coast - possibly ships fleeing exposed ports. Once Iwo is secure, I'll definately pick one port to raid - even if there's nothing in the port, the point will have been made - he'll realize that his HI ports are at risk.
I'll really begin to plan the next step after Iwo is secure. SigInt reveals at least part of Formosa is strongly held, but both the Okinawa airbases are still "small" and I haven't detected any major troop concentrations there. But Johh is smart, so that will soon change. There are plenty of potential targets right now, so he's got alot of things to consider, needs to move alot of troops from far away, and that's just what I had hoped for.
I am not anxious to hit heavily mined atolls anytime soon, and I much prefer expanding forward or laterally than to backfilling. I can create more consternation by pressing onward than I would gain by taking Marcus. If, and only if, I can't figure out a good plan to move forward, I might look to one of the central CenPac island groups - like Eniwetok.
Operation Silver Planet
Posted: Tue May 27, 2008 5:57 pm
by Canoerebel
9/5/43
Iwo Jima: The Allies took the base after a 4:1 shock attack, the defenders losing 486/10 to 545/11/1. This is a big relief. I'm torn about whether to avoid the hex until the minesweepers can finish their job, or immediately begin landing troops. I compromised - a large supply TF and a large fuel TF will dock, as will the damaged ships, as will a few ships carrying crated SBDs. If those ships don't have trouble with the mines, the rest will come in tomorrow. I transferred in a 54-plane Hellcat squadron off an replenishment escort carrier. It's experience level is in the mid-50s, but it will bolster the CAP provided by the CVE TF in the hex. Iwo's port facilities were badly damaged by shore bombardment, but the airfield is in good shape.
This day saw 4 AKs, 2 DMs, and an LST go down. As soon as the damaged ships get to port and stabalize, I'll tally the ships lost in the campaign thus far. Up to now the Allied losses have been minimal (as have Jap losses in ships and aircraft). But the capture of Iwo Jima is a tremendous victory for the Allies. Operation Red Planet (revised) is a success to date.
Rangoon: The Japs lost more than 8,000 troops to an Allied deliberate attack. The surviving troops can't last more than another day or two.
Operation Silver Planet: 50th Indian Paratroops landed at Diamond Harbor a few days ago and I am air transporting them to Meiktila. Tomorrow, recon aircraft will take a look at some of the smaller Jap-held bases in Siam. If any are open, the paratroops will try an assault the following day. If they manage to take a base, the Allies will begin a massive airlift of some of the Chinese units recently returned from the move on Hanoi. John may have thought of this, so all the cities may be garrisoned, but if not this has potential to be a disruptive operation.
RE: Operation Silver Planet
Posted: Tue May 27, 2008 6:14 pm
by NormS3
Many thanks for your entertaining AAR. I have been following nearly everyday, but was camping all weekend and just caught back up.
I was reading on your raid at Sumatra with the RN and your comment about just leaving the Japanese alone in Australia. If your planned liberation of Sumatra is not going to go off, perhaps you have entertained using those troops in an Inchon like landing in Australia?
I don't recall what your strength is in Australia, but surely your opponent is weak somewhere on the southern continent, perhaps you can flank him out of his line and start to recover some VPs.
Again fantastic job. I know it's been tough, but may your aggressive and innovative strike in the north central pacific bear fruit.
RE: Tip-Toeing through a minefield wearing iron galoshes
Posted: Tue May 27, 2008 6:29 pm
by Q-Ball
ORIGINAL: Canoerebel
I'll really begin to plan the next step after Iwo is secure. SigInt reveals at least part of Formosa is strongly held, but both the Okinawa airbases are still "small" and I haven't detected any major troop concentrations there. But Johh is smart, so that will soon change. There are plenty of potential targets right now, so he's got alot of things to consider, needs to move alot of troops from far away, and that's just what I had hoped for.
If Okinawa isn't very built up, (I think Naka starts as a size-4 AF, IIRC), I would go for Okinawa. That would be very risky, but if successful, would be deadly for Japan. You could ferry A/C in/out of China, and he would be completely cut off from SRA. If you took it, wow, what a comeback!
RE: Tip-Toeing through a minefield wearing iron galoshes
Posted: Tue May 27, 2008 6:36 pm
by Kereguelen
Hi,
very interesting AAR - following this for some time. If you don't mind, some comments about your invasion of Iwo and some technical aspects of invasions in general:
I noticed that it took you quite a long time to take Iwo. After looking at the composition of your Amphibious TF's you posted some time ago in this AAR - I can only say: no surprise.
The composition of your Invasion TF's was (sad to say) wholly inadequate and you were extremely lucky that your opponent did not respond to your move on Iwo in time (don't know why he did not react - there certainly was enough time for Japanese countermeasures). You would have faced a total desaster if you would've attacked an atoll because the assault faces were not properly loaded, simply said: too many troops on not enough ships. For atoll invasions I always use 30+ LST's for every division - or the equivalent of this in other small transports like 2000 capacity AP's - this is extreme and for islands like Iwo one can do with less, but you've loaded whole divisions on small TF's.
For any future invasions you need to change the ratio troops:ships.
And you should add more tank battalions and (if possible because they're a scarce commodity for the Allies) combat engineer regiments. Work wonders, don't need much cargo space and recover quite fast.
And you should seriously consider to ship in (land-based) fighter planes for CAP over newly conquered bases abord CVE's (they can fly in from the CVE's without being disabled). Works even better with Corsairs, of course. Anyway, it's not really a good idea to crate planes up if you need CAP over conquered bases.
Hope that my comments did not sound too harsh. The attack on Iwo was an excellent idea and it worked.
K
RE: Tip-Toeing through a minefield wearing iron galoshes
Posted: Tue May 27, 2008 8:03 pm
by anarchyintheuk
The composition of the tfs probably had more to do with his original (probable?) target of the PI and the relatively early date. Not nearly enough lsts to combat load 8 divs of inf in 9/43.
RE: Tip-Toeing through a minefield wearing iron galoshes
Posted: Tue May 27, 2008 8:19 pm
by Canoerebel
Anarchy is right - this was originally slated as an invasion of Luzon. Therefore, the dynamics of getting ashore were much different than for an atoll or small island attack. Luzon is so remote from Allied-held territory that I had to bring everything with me as though I was establishing a colony on Mars, because the invasion force was going to have to survive on it's own for many months. Getting ashore wasn't going to be a problem, staying there was. I also had to bring as much supply as I could, hence scores of AKs were devoted to that chore (and TKs to carrying fuel).
As for aircraft, I think we have a house rule prohibiting basing Corsairs on carriers until 1944, so I had to crate them.
But you're right. Had the Japanese reacted swiftly, sending carriers and combat ships against the invasion force, and sending as many reinforcements as possible, I think this would have ended disastrously for the Allies. The size of the Allied CV force probably acted as a deterrent, and if so I'm fortunate.
RE: Tip-Toeing through a minefield wearing iron galoshes
Posted: Tue May 27, 2008 8:20 pm
by onnel
Add me to the list of fans. Just finished reading through the whole thread and it was delightful!
RE: Tip-Toeing through a minefield wearing iron galoshes
Posted: Wed May 28, 2008 3:26 am
by Q-Ball
Well, maybe LSTs can come in v.2. Because Canoerebel is going to have to unload everything, sail home, and sail back with new convoys of stuff. (Plus empties to carry some of the troops on Iwo, or maybe they carry MORE supplies for Iwo, which will probably become a massive depot). Either way, it's probably 30 days at least to the next invasion.
Plenty of time for a port raid though........
RE: Tip-Toeing through a minefield wearing iron galoshes
Posted: Wed May 28, 2008 6:56 pm
by Canoerebel
9/6/43 and 9/7/43
Operation Silver Planet: The surprise paratroop assault into Siam commenced. A few days ago, 50th Indian Paratroops arrived in Diamond Harbor via transport from Aden. From there, Dakotas ferried part of the regiment to Meiktila. On the 6th, three recon squadrons checked out small bases in the interior of Siam and confirmed that each was empty. On the 7th, a small detachment of the paratroops captured the base at Siem Reap. Tomorrow, another detachment will take a stab at the base to the south. Meantime, three Dakota squadrons transferred to Lungchow and will begin air transporting a Chinese unit into Siem Reap. This operation has potential - the Allies can move alot of Chinese troops (heavy on manpower, light on equipment). John will have to use LRCAP to stop my transports. At the least, the prospect of a large Chinese army operating in Siam should worry him.
Iwo Jima: Port and airfield are fully repaired and engineers have begun work (the airfield is currently a 4 and can be built to 6, and the port is currently a 1 and can be built to 4). The airfield is within range of PBY Liberators from Midway, so I brought in two 12-plane squadrons. Three transports carrying a total of 72 Corsairs will dock tonight. Unbelievably, I somehow left an MLE out of this massive, 650-ship invasion force. There's no way I would have overlooked that...but I did. So the MLE at Midway will join the reinforcements that are slated to move to Iwo in a week or two. The Midway MLE will be replaced by the one currently at Palmyra.
I moved the carrier TF to a point between Iwo and Tori Shima and had intended to make a raid on the Home Island tomorrow, but noticed that many of my carrier Hellcat squadrons are 25-40% disabled right now. I noticed this when the CV TFs were attacked by LBA from Tokyo (12 Sallys, 7 Helens, and 12 Zeros went down in flames and none got through the CAP). I have no idea why so many fighters need repairs - the Hellcats on the CVEs, which are docked at Iwo, are 100% ready. So I'll dock the fleet carriers at Iwo, as soon as the mines are cleared, which could take some time, and give the mechanics a chance to get everything ready to go.
On the 6th, AKs suffered 12 more mine hits, APs 2, and an ML 1. No ships hit mines on the 7th, but the minesweepers are still hard at work. Over these two days, 5 more AKs went under, 2 more APs, and one MSW. There are still about five ships in danger of sinking.
Rangoon: The last of the Jap defenders were wiped out on the 7th. I'll move a few troops one hex north to give the appearance of a build-up for an attack on Moulmein, but the real emphasis right now will be on Operation Silver Planet.
Operation Lunar Eclipse: This will be the invasion of Okinawa, which may occur in a month or so. SigInt revealed 116th Base Force is at Kadina.