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Curtis Lemay wrote: Sun Nov 20, 2022 5:16 pm

warspite1 wrote: Sun Nov 20, 2022 5:14 pm

Curtis Lemay wrote: Sun Nov 20, 2022 5:10 pm
I've posted it more than once. Try to keep up.

warspite1

Nope - you simply responded to something I raised - and I raised it because you didn't understand the need to address the point in the first place! But that is your thought process all over - total lack of detail and awareness of what happened historically.

Lots of detail and I did say two was the trigger.

warspite1

Nope you didn't. You didn't understand the need to address it. You probably never heard of USS Saratoga. You also said initially in response to my raising it that you didn't know if the Japanese would want 1, 2 or 3 carriers. But now you say Yamamoto knew Grigsby's magic 10x formula. So surely he would want all 3. But all three doesn't suit your argument.

Please, please keep up.

Curtis Lemay wrote: Sun Nov 20, 2022 5:25 pm

warspite1 wrote: Sun Nov 20, 2022 5:20 pm

Curtis Lemay wrote: Sun Nov 20, 2022 5:18 pm
Anyone willing to fly a plane suicidally into a ship can handle a stint at sea.

warspite1

Lots of embarrassing posts - this one is pretty much the best. So ALL Japanese are the same person???? Every Japanese soldier could endure anything because some Japanese became Kamakaze???? Wow.

The Bushido code was universal.

warspite1

Yep - it's why Japan won the war - because the Japanese could withstand anything right?

warspite1 wrote: Sun Nov 20, 2022 5:29 pm

Curtis Lemay wrote: Sun Nov 20, 2022 5:16 pm

warspite1 wrote: Sun Nov 20, 2022 5:14 pm warspite1

Nope - you simply responded to something I raised - and I raised it because you didn't understand the need to address the point in the first place! But that is your thought process all over - total lack of detail and awareness of what happened historically.

Lots of detail and I did say two was the trigger.

warspite1

Nope you didn't. You didn't understand the need to address it. You probably never heard of USS Saratoga. You also said initially in response to my raising it that you didn't know if the Japanese would want 1, 2 or 3 carriers. But now you say Yamamoto knew Grigsby's magic 10x formula. So surely he would want all 3. But all three doesn't suit your argument.

Please, please keep up.

I repeat: I've been saying two for some time now.

warspite1 wrote: Sun Nov 20, 2022 5:30 pm

Curtis Lemay wrote: Sun Nov 20, 2022 5:25 pm

warspite1 wrote: Sun Nov 20, 2022 5:20 pm warspite1

Lots of embarrassing posts - this one is pretty much the best. So ALL Japanese are the same person???? Every Japanese soldier could endure anything because some Japanese became Kamakaze???? Wow.

The Bushido code was universal.

warspite1

Yep - it's why Japan won the war - because the Japanese could withstand anything right?

They could withstand flying a plane into a ship. That says that a stint at sea isn't that much of a hardship -relatively speaking.

Curtis Lemay wrote: Sun Nov 20, 2022 5:26 pm

warspite1 wrote: Sun Nov 20, 2022 5:23 pm

Curtis Lemay wrote: Sun Nov 20, 2022 5:19 pm
It doesn't have to be timed perfectly. Just within the time frame of the first strike.

warspite1

It does have to be timed perfectly. Too late and the Bettys walk into an alert enemy over Oahu. Too early and the Betty's alert the defenders of Oahu to the incoming carrier strike.

Too early for the landing on Maui and the Bettys land on an airfield in US hands.

Yes, this ridiculously complex 'plan' needed precision. But you don't bother with detail.

They have these things called radios!!! That's how they coordinate.

warspite1

Stop it this is too funny. So the Bettys have flown to the limit of their range, dropped their bombs over Oahu and...... they find the Japanese have yet to secure the airfield on Maui. But its okay because they have radios. So what are you saying? having radios conquers the airfield or having radios gives the Bettys extra fuel?

warspite1 wrote: Sun Nov 20, 2022 5:34 pm

Curtis Lemay wrote: Sun Nov 20, 2022 5:26 pm

warspite1 wrote: Sun Nov 20, 2022 5:23 pm warspite1

It does have to be timed perfectly. Too late and the Bettys walk into an alert enemy over Oahu. Too early and the Betty's alert the defenders of Oahu to the incoming carrier strike.

Too early for the landing on Maui and the Bettys land on an airfield in US hands.

Yes, this ridiculously complex 'plan' needed precision. But you don't bother with detail.

They have these things called radios!!! That's how they coordinate.

warspite1

Stop it this is too funny. So the Bettys have flown to the limit of their range, dropped their bombs over Oahu and...... they find the Japanese have yet to secure the airfield on Maui. But its okay because they have radios. So what are you saying? having radios conquers the airfield or having radios gives the Bettys extra fuel?

No they haven't flown to the limit of their range. They have about 400 miles of slack. They just need 100 to get to Maui. Radios are how they coordinate with the first strike planes.

Curtis Lemay wrote: Sun Nov 20, 2022 5:27 pm

warspite1 wrote: Sun Nov 20, 2022 5:25 pm

Curtis Lemay wrote: Sun Nov 20, 2022 5:21 pm
Probably more than 10x. Regardless, carriers are far more valuable than battleships. That make the plan a no brainer.

warspite1

But everyone knows carriers are more valuable than battleships - you don't need to quote Grigsby and a factor of 10x.

But if everyone - and particularly Yamamoto - knew this in 1941 why wasn't your 'plan' adopted?

So that's the argument: They didn't do it, therefore they couldn't do it. No hypotheticals ever.

warspite1

No, again you choose to miss the point. Of course one can explore hypotheticals. But they need to be realistic. You have Yamamoto doing things with the destroyer fleet, with the carrier raid and with the attack on the Southern Area that simply make no sense in terms of:

- Japan's strategic position
- Japan's resources vs their navy requirements
- the army vs the navy and their lack of co-operation
- what Yamamoto knew (or thought he knew)

Curtis Lemay wrote: Sun Nov 20, 2022 5:35 pm

warspite1 wrote: Sun Nov 20, 2022 5:34 pm

Curtis Lemay wrote: Sun Nov 20, 2022 5:26 pm
They have these things called radios!!! That's how they coordinate.

warspite1

Stop it this is too funny. So the Bettys have flown to the limit of their range, dropped their bombs over Oahu and...... they find the Japanese have yet to secure the airfield on Maui. But its okay because they have radios. So what are you saying? having radios conquers the airfield or having radios gives the Bettys extra fuel?

No they haven't flown to the limit of their range. They have about 400 miles of slack. They just need 100 to get to Maui. Radios are how they coordinate with the first strike planes.

warspite1

So 400 miles of slack gets them back to their base in the Marshalls if the airfield is not taken?

warspite1 wrote: Sun Nov 20, 2022 5:39 pm

Curtis Lemay wrote: Sun Nov 20, 2022 5:35 pm

warspite1 wrote: Sun Nov 20, 2022 5:34 pm warspite1

Stop it this is too funny. So the Bettys have flown to the limit of their range, dropped their bombs over Oahu and...... they find the Japanese have yet to secure the airfield on Maui. But its okay because they have radios. So what are you saying? having radios conquers the airfield or having radios gives the Bettys extra fuel?

No they haven't flown to the limit of their range. They have about 400 miles of slack. They just need 100 to get to Maui. Radios are how they coordinate with the first strike planes.

warspite1

So 400 miles of slack gets them back to their base in the Marshalls if the airfield is not taken?

Boy are you risk averse!

Curtis Lemay wrote: Sun Nov 20, 2022 5:33 pm

warspite1 wrote: Sun Nov 20, 2022 5:30 pm

Curtis Lemay wrote: Sun Nov 20, 2022 5:25 pm
The Bushido code was universal.

warspite1

Yep - it's why Japan won the war - because the Japanese could withstand anything right?

They could withstand flying a plane into a ship. That says that a stint at sea isn't that much of a hardship -relatively speaking.

warspite1

So I ask again, all Japanese were Kamakaze yes? All Kamakaze pilots flew their mission yes?

warspite1 wrote: Sun Nov 20, 2022 5:38 pm

Curtis Lemay wrote: Sun Nov 20, 2022 5:27 pm

warspite1 wrote: Sun Nov 20, 2022 5:25 pm warspite1

But everyone knows carriers are more valuable than battleships - you don't need to quote Grigsby and a factor of 10x.

But if everyone - and particularly Yamamoto - knew this in 1941 why wasn't your 'plan' adopted?

So that's the argument: They didn't do it, therefore they couldn't do it. No hypotheticals ever.

warspite1

No, again you choose to miss the point. Of course one can explore hypotheticals. But they need to be realistic. You have Yamamoto doing things with the destroyer fleet, with the carrier raid and with the attack on the Southern Area that simply make no sense in terms of:

- Japan's strategic position
- Japan's resources vs their navy requirements
- the army vs the navy and their lack of co-operation
- what Yamamoto knew (or thought he knew)

As I've said, I deduce what Yamamoto thought from his ACTIONS. His actions heavily favored carriers. If one has concluded that carriers are far more valuable than battleships the plan is a no brainer.

Curtis Lemay wrote: Sun Nov 20, 2022 5:40 pm

warspite1 wrote: Sun Nov 20, 2022 5:39 pm

Curtis Lemay wrote: Sun Nov 20, 2022 5:35 pm

No they haven't flown to the limit of their range. They have about 400 miles of slack. They just need 100 to get to Maui. Radios are how they coordinate with the first strike planes.

warspite1

So 400 miles of slack gets them back to their base in the Marshalls if the airfield is not taken?

Boy are you risk averse!

warspite1

You don't understand Japan's position. How many Bettys and precious aircrew do you think Japan would be happy to throw away on the basis an island thousands of miles away is perhaps possibly taken maybe? What would need to happen for your Maui invasion to work is that a million stars need to align. And you think the Japanese would run the risk. That is not me being risk averse.

warspite1 wrote: Sun Nov 20, 2022 5:41 pm

Curtis Lemay wrote: Sun Nov 20, 2022 5:33 pm

warspite1 wrote: Sun Nov 20, 2022 5:30 pm warspite1

Yep - it's why Japan won the war - because the Japanese could withstand anything right?

They could withstand flying a plane into a ship. That says that a stint at sea isn't that much of a hardship -relatively speaking.

warspite1

So I ask again, all Japanese were Kamakaze yes? All Kamakaze pilots flew their mission yes?

All Japanese followed the Bushido code, from which Kamakazes result. You want to ridiculusly exaggerate every factor in the plan. A stint at sea isn't a great hardship - especially for Samuri.

warspite1 wrote: Sun Nov 20, 2022 5:39 pm

Curtis Lemay wrote: Sun Nov 20, 2022 5:35 pm

warspite1 wrote: Sun Nov 20, 2022 5:34 pm warspite1

Stop it this is too funny. So the Bettys have flown to the limit of their range, dropped their bombs over Oahu and...... they find the Japanese have yet to secure the airfield on Maui. But its okay because they have radios. So what are you saying? having radios conquers the airfield or having radios gives the Bettys extra fuel?

No they haven't flown to the limit of their range. They have about 400 miles of slack. They just need 100 to get to Maui. Radios are how they coordinate with the first strike planes.

warspite1

So 400 miles of slack gets them back to their base in the Marshalls if the airfield is not taken?

These things called radios, the pilots barely used them. They were primative, unreliable, and heavy. Most fighter pilots took them out. Fuchida, during the raid, made no attempt to issue orders or coordinate, Thus all the confusion after firing one flare, then another when not everyone saw the 1st.

As far as Bettys go, an American fighter pilot's dream. Unescorted flying cigar lighters. Why unescorted? Because the fighters, if any, would follow Bushido and all go tearing off to seek glory. It was not in their doctrine or training to be defensive, which playing escort is.

Curtis Lemay wrote: Sun Nov 20, 2022 5:44 pm

warspite1 wrote: Sun Nov 20, 2022 5:38 pm

Curtis Lemay wrote: Sun Nov 20, 2022 5:27 pm
So that's the argument: They didn't do it, therefore they couldn't do it. No hypotheticals ever.

warspite1

No, again you choose to miss the point. Of course one can explore hypotheticals. But they need to be realistic. You have Yamamoto doing things with the destroyer fleet, with the carrier raid and with the attack on the Southern Area that simply make no sense in terms of:

- Japan's strategic position
- Japan's resources vs their navy requirements
- the army vs the navy and their lack of co-operation
- what Yamamoto knew (or thought he knew)

As I've said, I deduce what Yamamoto thought from his ACTIONS. His actions heavily favored carriers. If one has concluded that carriers are far more valuable than battleships the plan is a no brainer.

warspite1

But Yamamoto didn't think that the raid should be cancelled or postponed if only BB's could be attacked so..... and his ACTIONS at Midway and elsewhere showed he hadn't shaken off the notion that the BB would deliver victory in the decisive battle.

warspite1 wrote: Sun Nov 20, 2022 5:45 pm

Curtis Lemay wrote: Sun Nov 20, 2022 5:40 pm

warspite1 wrote: Sun Nov 20, 2022 5:39 pm warspite1

So 400 miles of slack gets them back to their base in the Marshalls if the airfield is not taken?

Boy are you risk averse!

warspite1

You don't understand Japan's position. How many Bettys and precious aircrew do you think Japan would be happy to throw away on the basis an island thousands of miles away is perhaps possibly taken maybe? What would need to happen for your Maui invasion to work is that a million stars need to align. And you think the Japanese would run the risk. That is not me being risk averse.

It is a low risk, high reward option. Two battalions and two air groups vs. a years delay in US response.

Aurelian wrote: Sun Nov 20, 2022 5:46 pm

warspite1 wrote: Sun Nov 20, 2022 5:39 pm

Curtis Lemay wrote: Sun Nov 20, 2022 5:35 pm

No they haven't flown to the limit of their range. They have about 400 miles of slack. They just need 100 to get to Maui. Radios are how they coordinate with the first strike planes.

warspite1

So 400 miles of slack gets them back to their base in the Marshalls if the airfield is not taken?

These things called radios, the pilots barely used them. They were primative, unreliable, and heavy. Most fighter pilots took them out. Fuchida, during the raid, made no attempt to issue orders or coordinate, Thus all the confusion after firing one flare, then another when not everyone saw the 1st.

Fuchida famously signaled "Tora Tora Tora". He had a radio. The Bettys had radios.

warspite1 wrote: Sun Nov 20, 2022 5:48 pm

Curtis Lemay wrote: Sun Nov 20, 2022 5:44 pm

warspite1 wrote: Sun Nov 20, 2022 5:38 pm warspite1

No, again you choose to miss the point. Of course one can explore hypotheticals. But they need to be realistic. You have Yamamoto doing things with the destroyer fleet, with the carrier raid and with the attack on the Southern Area that simply make no sense in terms of:

- Japan's strategic position
- Japan's resources vs their navy requirements
- the army vs the navy and their lack of co-operation
- what Yamamoto knew (or thought he knew)

As I've said, I deduce what Yamamoto thought from his ACTIONS. His actions heavily favored carriers. If one has concluded that carriers are far more valuable than battleships the plan is a no brainer.

warspite1

But Yamamoto didn't think that the raid should be cancelled or postponed if only BB's could be attacked so..... and his ACTIONS at Midway and elsewhere showed he hadn't shaken off the notion that the BB would deliver victory in the decisive battle.

And here we are again: They didn't do it therefore they couldn't! Pathetic.

Curtis Lemay wrote: Sun Nov 20, 2022 5:46 pm

warspite1 wrote: Sun Nov 20, 2022 5:41 pm

Curtis Lemay wrote: Sun Nov 20, 2022 5:33 pm
They could withstand flying a plane into a ship. That says that a stint at sea isn't that much of a hardship -relatively speaking.

warspite1

So I ask again, all Japanese were Kamakaze yes? All Kamakaze pilots flew their mission yes?

All Japanese followed the Bushido code, from which Kamakazes result. You want to ridiculusly exaggerate every factor in the plan. A stint at sea isn't a great hardship - especially for Samuri.

warspite1

A stint at sea?? I beg you. Look at a map, look at the weather, look at the timescale, look at the conditions and what you are asking the troops to do and still be combat ready at the end of it. Read about the British troops on their way to the Falklands in a situation wholly more favourable to those you envisage for the Japanese. Sorry, you don't understand what you expect the Japanese troops to do and you simply use a get out of jail "code of Bushido" nonsense to try and explain it.

Curtis Lemay wrote: Sun Nov 20, 2022 5:51 pm

warspite1 wrote: Sun Nov 20, 2022 5:48 pm

Curtis Lemay wrote: Sun Nov 20, 2022 5:44 pm
As I've said, I deduce what Yamamoto thought from his ACTIONS. His actions heavily favored carriers. If one has concluded that carriers are far more valuable than battleships the plan is a no brainer.

warspite1

But Yamamoto didn't think that the raid should be cancelled or postponed if only BB's could be attacked so..... and his ACTIONS at Midway and elsewhere showed he hadn't shaken off the notion that the BB would deliver victory in the decisive battle.

And here we are again: They didn't do it therefore they couldn't! Pathetic.

warspite1

Not what is being said and I expect you know it. You are floundering now and so falling back on stock phrases.