Matrix Games Forums

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

ORIGINAL: John 3rd
July 1, 1944
New month. Praise be! Take a look at the delightful news shown in my research page:

Ooh! Ooh! Ooh! Let me beat Lowpe to be the 'daily downer' for you!

When do the Allies get P-51s in number in the game? Is it July 1944? [:D]

I thought it was October or November for decent Mustangs in qty![:D] I thought now thru then is the time to really bleed Allied fighters and bombers.

I have no experience with the Frank B, but lots with the Tony.[:)] Both are bomber killer extraordinaire!

If you setup a layered low CAP with Sams, Frank A, Frank B and Tony you will really be able to whittle down the Allies ability maintain offensive aerial operations. The trick is to avoid the inevitable shore bombardments.

I hesitate to think how that kind of CAP would do to a death star strike!

Time to sweep with some Georges...you need to bleed him as much as you possibly can.

Lowpe and Chickenboy:

How would you set the Altitudes of the aircraft? Right now I run the Franks as high as possible. Are you saying that MISTER TONY should be set highest? Dan flies nearly everything at 32K or higher and it SEEMS only fightable if I have some of mine at the same or higher...


Notes:
1. After scaring the BEJESUS out of the Japanese by bringing the 1.0x10^6 to a point of the NE Corner of Luzon, Dan pulls them back on the 30th. Hope my bluster/bluff worked. This pull back allows for troops to continue unloading all along the island chain leading back towards Okinawa. Need about 7-10 days for the last of the troops to get unloaded and continue with Fort digging.

2. Tanker TF #5 departs Singapore. This is the big one that HAS to get thru. It is carrying 154,000+ Fuel and 60,000+ Oil. WE get this one home to Japan and things should be good to 1945.

3. Tanker TF #6 will begin to load in a few days. It will have the ability to carry just about as much as TF #5. Five MUST get there but six would be pure gravy...

4. In a development that just leaves me befuddled, BB Nagato, a CL, and 2 DD decide to upgrade while in Singers. I had turned thing on at Singers PRIOR to the TFs arrival but guess I screwed it up. Need at least 20 days before I can move these wessels. Think GOOD thoughts!

5. He has landed at Ternate. Doesn't look like enough but we'll see...

6. Am now pulling troops out of Bangkok as the Allies take Pisanuloke.

7. Lift the 5th ID (replace with a Brigade) from Guam. It is headed for Nago, OKINAWA.

8. Though watching there has been no action around Luganville. We'll try to provoke a reaction by bringing in a FTF of 3 PG carrying 3,000 supplies for the troops there.

ORIGINAL: John 3rd
Lowpe and Chickenboy:

How would you set the Altitudes of the aircraft?

Beats the **** outta me, dude.

Seriously, there are a multitude of opinions on the matter of stacked / layered / high-altitude / low-altitude CAPs. Obvert has done some intriguing testing showing the benefits of low stacked CAP (3,000, 6,000 and 9,000 alt. IIRC) with Franks vs. P-47D2s. It was uniquely effective. He could regularly replicate such success as well, even with a much higher altitude P-47 sweep.

But, like I've said before, I have limited late war experience so I am not a font of first hand knowledge on the matter.

How would *I* proceed? I'd mix it up and experiment to see what worked best for me. I'd try Obvert's low CAP stacked and then I'd try some traditional altitude CAP and high CAP (+/- stacking) to see what worked best for me.

OK. We'll begin an experiment over the next few turns and I will document the settings. Ain't gonna be any secrecy here gang. Let all know how things do/do not work.

I mentioned this in the other AAR. A game hex is 1386 square nautical miles. That's a lot of space in which to put the Allied fleet.

Other people are going to have to help with your CAP strategy. The one time I faced sweeps Lowpe cleared the skies (the AI doesn't sweep).

Cheers,
CC

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

ORIGINAL: John 3rd
Lowpe and Chickenboy:

How would you set the Altitudes of the aircraft?

Beats the **** outta me, dude.

Seriously, there are a multitude of opinions on the matter of stacked / layered / high-altitude / low-altitude CAPs. Obvert has done some intriguing testing showing the benefits of low stacked CAP (3,000, 6,000 and 9,000 alt. IIRC) with Franks vs. P-47D2s. It was uniquely effective. He could regularly replicate such success as well, even with a much higher altitude P-47 sweep.

But, like I've said before, I have limited late war experience so I am not a font of first hand knowledge on the matter.

How would *I* proceed? I'd mix it up and experiment to see what worked best for me. I'd try Obvert's low CAP stacked and then I'd try some traditional altitude CAP and high CAP (+/- stacking) to see what worked best for me.

John just sent me a PM and I saw this here.

I tested the higher CAP layers as well. Results are in the low CAP thread.

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4047529

Low CAP still beats higher layered CAP by a good amount. This is the basic info. More detailed results are in the thread. I've also gone to 20+ runs in several tests to see how things stack up and began to post those before my recent game started. They still support the benefit of using low CAP at 9k, 7k, 5k at 0 range.

I've been using this in game, and it does have wrinkles, but certainly works better than anything else I've tried either in tests or game situations.

Numbers are losses below:

ORIGINAL: John 3rd

Notes:
1. After scaring the BEJESUS out of the Japanese by bringing the 1.0x10^6 to a point of the NE Corner of Luzon, Dan pulls them back on the 30th. Hope my bluster/bluff worked. This pull back allows for troops to continue unloading all along the island chain leading back towards Okinawa. Need about 7-10 days for the last of the troops to get unloaded and continue with Fort digging.

Don't be scared of the DS. If it comes out, set up cap traps. In fact, you probably should always have a cap trap up and running every day somewhere...especially where the DS might show up. This is a perfect job for your second tier fighters. 2nd tier fighters against the DS and deep strikes. 1st tier fighters against land based air attacks.

When the DS disappears, that is the time to worry as that means a major invasion might be coming.

Check sigint often as that will give you warning of major ship concentrations...like 1000 ship concentrations.

Credit for low CAP layered defense really goes to Lobarron, Alfred, theElf and others. Don't forget you need radar too!

The accidental upgrade hits every Japanese player at least once. Just make sure you have some planes flying low CAP every day there and hopefully you will be ok.

P51D comes in 10/44.

July 1, 1944

OK. We have the beginnings of a plan.

I just shifted the CAP as detailed above. It will probably be tested immediately at Formosa. I have bunches of Fighters resting, drawing airframes, and preparing for the upcoming fight. There were a pair of P-47 sweeps over the SW corner of Formosa today. The P-47s and Japan had a even exchange. This occurred before changes.

Set a CAP Trap for tomorrow over Clark. That base is about to fall and you can bet your bottom dollar he'll throw everything (DB, TB, 2EB, and 4EB) there tomorrow. It isn't a lot (36 Sams and 49 Frank) but it might provide a rude surprise.

In a stunning development, Dan uses his B-29s as STRATEGIC bombers and they strike at Kochi on Shikoku. I didn't know that Strategic bombers could be used strategically! [8|] There are only 22 of them and destroy just one resource. Strange choice for a first try. Next time he will face opposition as I set all fighters from Osaka down to CAP/LRCAP. Am going with a standard setting of 30/30 for CAP and LRCAP. Should provide movement within the Fighter units if he throws multiple strikes against the same hex.If anyone has a better idea on this, I am all ears.

HI is stockpiling at a FAST rate presently. We're banking 5,000/day.

Here are the B-29s:

QUERY: That Low CAP Level Setting shouldn't be applied to fighting just his bombers right? I assume a higher altitude setting would work here since there are, as of yet, no Fighters that can escort the B-29s.

Here is the speed of research with my Frank (+8 = Minimum 3 Days to Deployment) and Tony (+2 Will see if that is a consistent number):

ORIGINAL: John 3rd

QUERY: That Low CAP Level Setting shouldn't be applied to fighting just his bombers right? I assume a higher altitude setting would work here since there are, as of yet, no Fighters that can escort the B-29s.

IIRC, John, the stacked low CAP that Obvert tested was vs. Thunderbolt sweeps of varying altitudes. So, yes-I would assume business as usual in terms of unescorted bomber intercept CAP altitude settings.

ETA: Looks like a 42k sweep for the P47s in the attachments here. There were many other altitude tests in the aforementioned thread. I recommend you review it, John.

ORIGINAL: Lowpe
Credit for low CAP layered defense really goes to Lobarron, Alfred, theElf and others. Don't forget you need radar too!

Obviously, credit for game coding and original game design goes to the...coders and original game designers.

Beyond that though, the credit for my awareness of this issue (which is what I posted about) goes to Obvert. I wasn't aware of the other discussions or coding that may have taken place years ago, so I am not crediting them-they did not influence my awareness and understanding. So to clarify: credit for bringing this testing and low layered CAP discussion to my attention goes to Obvert. YMMV.

Good point about the radar.

LOTS of radar needed. Will be going thru Kyushu and Honshu tonight to check on that. Know there is a good amount already in Formosa.

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

ORIGINAL: John 3rd

QUERY: That Low CAP Level Setting shouldn't be applied to fighting just his bombers right? I assume a higher altitude setting would work here since there are, as of yet, no Fighters that can escort the B-29s.

IIRC, John, the stacked low CAP that Obvert tested was vs. Thunderbolt sweeps of varying altitudes. So, yes-I would assume business as usual in terms of unescorted bomber intercept CAP altitude settings.

ETA: Looks like a 42k sweep for the P47s in the attachments here. There were many other altitude tests in the aforementioned thread. I recommend you review it, John.

I've done some tests with bombing runs but most of the bombing "testing" has come in game. It works very well against even bombers set to higher altitudes.

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

ORIGINAL: Lowpe
Credit for low CAP layered defense really goes to Lobarron, Alfred, theElf and others. Don't forget you need radar too!

Obviously, credit for game coding and original game design goes to the...coders and original game designers.

Beyond that though, the credit for my awareness of this issue (which is what I posted about) goes to Obvert. I wasn't aware of the other discussions or coding that may have taken place years ago, so I am not crediting them-they did not influence my awareness and understanding. So to clarify: credit for bringing this testing and low layered CAP discussion to my attention goes to Obvert. YMMV.

Good point about the radar.

This tactic came to me through Lowpe from the sages above. I was at first doubtful, although I did remember a few low CAP results from my game with Jocke that were more than usually successful, so I tried it out. Immediately on testing it worked better than anything I'd tried, so I kept testing.

We'll, possibly, find out in the next few turns coming...

July 2, 1944

Dan wastes little time going after my screwed up ships upgrading at Singers: 70 Fighters vs 70 B-29. The combat has five B-29s shot down and 36 damaged.

ORIGINAL: John 3rd

July 2, 1944

Dan wastes little time going after my screwed up ships upgrading at Singers: 70 Fighters vs 70 B-29. The combat has five B-29s shot down and 36 damaged.

What was the extent of the damage to the ships?

The combat report shows a bit better performance in a decent day for the Japanese pilots:

Did he score any hits on the BB?

Does he know the BB is there?

10 Downed Beasts!!!! Plus I bet plenty more damaged and vulnerable if he continues using them. a perfect place for those 61D...

Good job.[:)]